black-eyed whites

hi! i haven't been here for quite a while (sorry, forgot about this forums :oops:), but now i have a question:
in germany, i heard of a new coat color in ASFs - snow white, black eyes, grey ears. they are still hard to get here, but i have already seen some photos - these are the most beautiful animals on earth!
they are said to be less aggressive but also much less productive.
i think that they are probably extreme pieds, not a new mutation, but i don't know it exactly.
anyone here who knows more about these black-eyed whites or even breeds them?
greets from berlin,
marina

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Originally Posted by susi´s trainer

hi! i haven't been here for quite a while (sorry, forgot about this forums :oops:), but now i have a question:
in germany, i heard of a new coat color in ASFs - snow white, black eyes, grey ears. they are still hard to get here, but i have already seen some photos - these are the most beautiful animals on earth!
they are said to be less aggressive but also much less productive.
i think that they are probably extreme pieds, not a new mutation, but i don't know it exactly.
anyone here who knows more about these black-eyed whites or even breeds them?
greets from berlin,
marina

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Need pictures.

http://www.pic-upload.de/view-134089...M--2-.JPG.html
http://profile.deine-tierwelt.de/rat...f817bf079548b5

Those look great, they almost look like some form of Siamese. I've never seen anything like that over here.....

HOLY CRAP!!!! those are the cutest ever!!!

Nope, haven't seen any of them in the U.S. Now somebody get over there and get some and bring them back to me!!!!! would LOVE to make an albino one!

That hawt!

Yea I want some also!

They're super adorable! They almost look like a rat with a little bit of chinchila thrown in. lol

They are purdy!

Very neat! Not sure if they would be extreme pieds, given the entire litter is almost completely white, but it's possible! Domestic norway rats can be bred for more and more white until you are left with an animal with black eyes and white fur.

If the animals are in Germany, wouldn't you have a better chance of getting more info on them? :P

cut the crap connie! Why haven't you produced some of these for us yet???!!! BACK TO WORK!

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

cut the crap connie! Why haven't you produced some of these for us yet???!!! BACK TO WORK!

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Last I knew, YOU were breeding for less and less color in your caped ones, not me. :P

here are some for 1€! :P
i don't want them to be shipped in the winter, but i'll definitely get some!

i read that if you crossed them with "normal" ones you would get babies with less patterns. and you can see some small grey spots on this one...
http://profile.deine-tierwelt.de/rat...098/p-1103089/
...that's why i think that they are actually pieds.

the different-colored ears are totally what make this the cutest ever.

I will have to renew my efforts on that project. For a While I was breeding the caped specificly for the smallest possible patch of color on the back. While it did get smaller and smaller, I seemed to hit a wall where I couldn't get that patch smaller then a nickle. I will try again....


Mike

Could we get them imported to the US? I remember the Monkey Pox scare a few years back and a ban on some (all?) African rodents. Would be a real shame if the US government didn't distinguish between cb in another country and wild caught in Africa and banned at the species or even broader level.

I'm thinking this looks a lot like the Acromelanic/Himalayan recessive mutation seen in a fair number of species. Only the cooler parts of the body (ears and sometimes feet depending on species) get color. Maybe the spotted one is genetically the same and was born into a cooler room allowing a few extra spots of color.

Would be a blast to get some over to work with and find out if it could be outbred to pick up better reproduction while keeping the nice temperament and full white body. If it can be done legally should we start a co-op to bring some in? I don't have a ton of money to pitch in but could put up some and patiently wait for someone else to get them established here.

Don't know the answers to any of your questions... I would assume it is either impossible or extremely expensive to get them.

I contacted the breeder:

This really seems to be a new mutation!!
Until they are about 5 month old, they have a small dark dot on their neck that then disappears! Their coat is much softer than that of normal ASFs. They are very gentle and can be handled. The production rate is normal. And this coat color seems to be dominant over all others...

Sounds quite interesting, doesn't it?

Dominant is surprising. I know the similar looking mutation in Syrian hamsters is recessive (not sure about rats, rabbits, and the others).

Anyone have any connections to find out if they could be imported into the US and if so how expensive?

Or maybe by "dominant over all others" the breeder means epistatic. Like leucistic would cover piebald because you couldn't see the piebald color under the white.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by susi´s trainer

I contacted the breeder:

This really seems to be a new mutation!!
Until they are about 5 month old, they have a small dark dot on their neck that then disappears! Their coat is much softer than that of normal ASFs. They are very gentle and can be handled. The production rate is normal. And this coat color seems to be dominant over all others...

Sounds quite interesting, doesn't it?

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Any chance you could get the breeder to give you some more information about the ASF's? Like, if she were to breed this white one to an agouti self, what would she get?

I'm hesitant to label it acromelanism, since it does not show the tell tale gradient at the nose and rump, and the ears are completely pigmented at the skin, which is not the norm for norway rats. Also, the animal's eyes are black, acromelanism is on the albino locus in norway rats, making pink/ruby eyes. (Their eyes are lighter than the picture shows, it was bad lighting)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...iamesetrio.jpg

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I'm more of the mind that it is likely a modifier gene in cahoots with the white spotting, causing an extreme pied effect rather than acromelanism. But who knows?

Randy, I think african rodents are still banned from importation.

I forgot to update you all. I have spoken with a breeder in Germany, she bought the ASF's from a feeder breeder, and she has confirmed that it is the work of selectively breeding the pieds for higher white.

She didn't originally breed for the all white, she bought them that way, but she is working more on perfecting it for the fancy. Sometimes the colored spots will fade with age, and she is working on making sure the ears stay pigmented, and the body stays pure white.

I believe she knows the breeder (or it's her I'm thinking of) she bought them from is also working towards putting the super high white into the Fawn/Amber color, so they would look like pink eyed whites/albino, but in reality, they are still the extreme white from the pied gene.

So there you have it Mike, let us know what kind of progress you make!

interested to see what happens with these guys
if someone does find a way to get some i wonder how it will affect prices in the long run.
and also if these do have a better temper and are less nippy that would definetly make these guys take off as feeders and pets since there so darn cute lol

hello from berlin again! :)

i FINALLY got my white ASFs :banana:...

black-eared
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...lity/helga.jpg
grey-eared
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...maeuse-073.jpg
black-eyed white
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...edelweiss3.jpg
pink-eyed white
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...ty/vzm-077.jpg
and ruby-eyed white (have to take some better pics):
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...ity/martin.jpg

just before i got them i seriously thought of giving up on asfs because i got bitten SO hard again (took me to the hospital for a week!). but i'm perfectly happy with these now, they are the friendliest pets ever.

the grey-eared on the pic already has a litter (to my big surprise:weirdface- must have bought her pregnant).

i can't wait to clicker train them and find out how smart they are. but i'm afraid the pink-eyed are almost blind :(...

until then,
marina

Nice they make pretty snake food! LOL but I would love to have some to mix in my colony! for real:gj:

hi! i don't sell mine alive (only pre-killed/frozen), so you won't be very happy with them.;)
and the two breeders i got mine from are out of stock now.:D ...but you could be lucky with this one.

btw, i'm not sure about the genotypes of the grey-eared. the breeder thinks they are Bb's (he says that the high-white modifier gene may also dilute the ear/eye color), but to me they look exactly like cinnamons. and he also thinks the ruby-eyed are just Pp's... i don't (want to) believe him.
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...ty/vzm-009.jpg

wow, missed this thread the first time, good bump :)

never seen them in the states & havent had any pop up in the 100's ive bred.

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Originally Posted by susi´s trainer

hi! i don't sell mine alive (only pre-killed/frozen), so you won't be very happy with them.;)

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You wouldn't part with any of the black eared?

the old female on the pic is the only black-eared adult i got. and she is far too old to breed.:(
there are at least 4 black-eared pups in the unexpected litter, but they have quite a few random spots on their necks, this one even on his nose:
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...babies-003.jpg
the nose spot has become much more prominent since. he is SO sweet!!! :love:
unfortunately, the breeder has no idea who's the father. so i still don't know if it's really true that only the homozygous agoutis will have black ears.
this is his mother, looks like a cinnamon to me:
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...babies-014.jpg
half of the litter seems to be PEW, the others black-eared.

...but as i said, i don't give away living rats anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by susi´s trainer

hi! i don't sell mine alive (only pre-killed/frozen), so you won't be very happy with them.;)

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And why is that?!

Welcome! Now feel free to see yourself to the door and leave.

Sincerely,

If these are from selectively breeding the piebald individuals until you get a full white version then we could be looking at full on leucism (of which piebald is a form). Regardless, gorgeous animals.

Mike,

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

And why is that?!

Welcome! Now feel free to see yourself to the door and leave.

Sincerely,

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What the heck?

Do you know the laws about shipping live rodents in Germany? Or from Germany to the U.S?

Do you know the quarantine laws that may be needed in such a shipping?

How about any documentation and the corresponding costs?

What business is it of yours what other people choose to sell?

And exactly when did you get given the right to tell people to feel free to leave the site for any of the above? :mad:


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Mike,



What the heck?

Do you know the laws about shipping live rodents in Germany? Or from Germany to the U.S?

Do you know the quarantine laws that may be needed in such a shipping?

How about any documentation and the corresponding costs?

What business is it of yours what other people choose to sell?

And exactly when did you get given the right to tell people to feel free to leave the site for any of the above? :mad:


dr del

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Sorry "forum police" (cough, cough) Dr del... I forgot it was your night "working the beat"

Going forward I will be sure you follow your rule of running any sarcastic joke past you first for your personal approval. Would HATE for someone to get a chuckle without your permission...

:colbert:

To the OP, as I have already stated a couple of times in this thread, those are the cutest ASF's ever, and would LOVE to get my hands on some!

Have you ever visited the beautiful white beaches of Florida? If not, come on a visit! just be sure to sneak a few of these in your toiletries bag! (live that is :) )

:gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Sorry "forum police" (cough, cough) Dr del... I forgot it was your night "working the beat"

Going forward I will be sure you follow your rule of running any sarcastic joke past you first for your personal approval. Would HATE for someone to get a chuckle without your permission...

:colbert:

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Whoops, did it again! guess I should have got your permission on this one too first! Sorry!

now for the reasons i don't give them away...

- i don't want them to be kept in tiny cages, and that's what most breeders do.
- shipping them frozen minimizes the transport stress.;)
- i don't want them to be fed alive when unnecessary.
- i would give them away as pets in certain cases, but most pet keepers are looking for docile strains and therefore are not interested in mine.

the whites are very docile so far, that's why i could sell the unexpected pups as pets. but i need them as feeders anyway.

and i'm afraid it would be quite complicated to ship them to the US. i don't know if this regulation still exists, but i've heard that most airlines refuse to ship live rodents in the cargo space (there once was an incident when some escaped and nibbled on cables...), only as hand luggage.

have you contacted the other breeder? perhaps you are lucky.:gj:
i'll tell you if i find another one, but she is the only one i know so far...

:) don't think there is any way for me to get them over here. not that I know of anyway. PLEASE post more pics as you get them. I am the number one fan of those things!!!! :)