Breaking The Habit

How should I go about breaking my 2 balls from assist feeding? They won't take a f/t by dangling it in front of them. What are your methods? I already know it is a bad habit, that is why I am asking.

I would first try a live rat chub and leave it in the tub over night and see if they take it and then after a few meals try F/T.

rat or mouse? they are eating medium mice now.

Why are you assisting them?

Have you tried everything before deciding to assist them? (Husbandry adjustment, preys etc)

Have you try live?

What is the background on those snakes? You hatched them, bought them?

Have they ever eat for you?

What is their setup like?

I feed rats they are easier for me to breed. I would try a rat chub. A big rat chub is about the same size as a mouse and it want hurt your snake.

I am assisting them because they will not eat a f/t medium mouse on their own and haven't since I have owned them. Hissy's cage is correct when it comes to temp, hides, humidity, etc and Oakley is currently in quarantine due to an injury of unknown origin. Oakley will be downgraded to a 10 gallon aquarium setup similar to Hissy's to help regulate temperatures. I have not tried live because I had read many times that there was a chance of hurting them and I did not wish to cause harm to them and stress them out. Oakley was received from a friend who bought him from the same store we purchased Hissy from.

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Originally Posted by roosterman2173

I feed rats they are easier for me to breed. I would try a rat chub. A big rat chub is about the same size as a mouse and it want hurt your snake.

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I don't breed so where would I purchase rat chubs? What is a rat chub anyways?

Get them housed properly, wait a week or two by leaving them completely alone and then try live medium mice AFTER pre-scenting the room for 30 minutes to an hour.

Why are you assist-feeding them? There's no reason to...

Get them both in plastic tub enclosures, 15-32qt, no bigger. Get the temperatures where they are supposed to be(92-95 warm side, 82-84 cool side, 50-65% humidity). Simple set ups equal ease of heating, keeping the enclosure clean and having a snake that feels secure in its home. Yours do not right now. They are stressed from you shoving mice down their throats, stressed from having freezing cold enclosures and improper hides, stressed from feeling too exposed from the glass walls of their tanks...

I have over 45 Ball Pythons and none have to be assist fed.

I always equate ball pythons to cats, and boas to dogs;

Balls, like cats, do what they want, when they want, how they want, regardless of what you want.

Boas are like dogs...throw something in the cage and they don't mess around.

Anyways, I would place something relatively harmless in the cage, that is live, and let them warm up to it over a few days, in peace and quiet.

BrandonsBalls

(no offense to cat lovers, but everyone knows they are the fickle, independent sort.)

I am glad you made this post. In order for us to help you, you really have to give us a whole bunch of info. Trust me. If you put in the time and effort to give us every last detail you can think of, we as a community will help you fix this. Here are some starter questions. Please answer all these AND whatever other info you can think of.


1 How long have you had these snakes?
2 are they kept together in the same tank?
3 Where did you get your snakes from?
4 How old / big are your snakes?
5 What is your setup / temps / hides / substrate / way of measuring temp and humidity / humidity % / type, size of enclosure
6 What exact steps did you take before resorting to assist feeding?
7 how often are you feeding?
8 What exactly are you feeding, and what is your procedure when feeding (before trying to assist feed)
9 How much are you handling the snakes?
10 When is the last time they shed? How did that shed go?

I know it will take some time to answer all these quesitons, but answer in as much detail as possible, and be willing to hear the replies. I promise you we can turn your snakes around.


Mike

Why would you leave a live prey item in the snake's enclosure for days? Overnight max... Anymore and you're just going to stress the snake out and likely kill the mouse/rat pup via dehydration/starvation.

The OPs set ups are not correct. Ball Pythons don't eat when their environments are not up to par, be it temperatures, humidity, hides, too much exposure, too much room activity, etc. Until the OP decides on his own that the snakes' enclosures are incorrect, the snakes will suffer until then.

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

Hissy's cage is correct when it comes to temp, hides, humidity, etc and Oakley is currently in quarantine due to an injury of unknown origin. Oakley will be downgraded to a 10 gallon aquarium setup similar to Hissy's to help regulate temperatures.

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people want to help you here. in order for them to do that, you need to give exact information. EXACT numbers on cool and warm side temps, exact humidity, how long you have had them, any other information that people are asking for, give. It is to help you and your snakes.

leaving in a rat pup or a crawler wont hurt your snake. from waht i understand, crawlers teeth have not emerged, and therefor pose no threat in that way to your animals.

PLEASE refer to the caresheets on this site for accurite information on enclosure set ups.

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Originally Posted by roosterman2173

I feed rats they are easier for me to breed. I would try a rat chub. A big rat chub is about the same size as a mouse and it want hurt your snake.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I am glad you made this post. In order for us to help you, you really have to give us a whole bunch of info. Trust me. If you put in the time and effort to give us every last detail you can think of, we as a community will help you fix this. Here are some starter questions. Please answer all these AND whatever other info you can think of.


1 How long have you had these snakes?
2 are they kept together in the same tank?
3 Where did you get your snakes from?
4 How old / big are your snakes?
5 What is your setup / temps / hides / substrate / way of measuring temp and humidity / humidity % / type, size of enclosure
6 What exact steps did you take before resorting to assist feeding?
7 how often are you feeding?
8 What exactly are you feeding, and what is your procedure when feeding (before trying to assist feed)
9 How much are you handling the snakes?
10 When is the last time they shed? How did that shed go?

I know it will take some time to answer all these quesitons, but answer in as much detail as possible, and be willing to hear the replies. I promise you we can turn your snakes around.


Mike

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1. Oakley since around mid November and Hissy around the end of November.
2. They are kept in separate tanks, Oakley in a 40 breeder (I know too big but I plan to downgrade) and Hissy in a 10 gallon aquarium.
3. I received Oakley from a friend who could no longer keep him and Hissy from Emerald Bay, a reputable source that is local, they do a lot of business with famous people and athletes.
4. Not sure how old, I suspect Hissy is slightly older because she is a few inches longer. They are both fairly small I am not sure about exact age or weight. But they are a bit larger than the snake on this thread.
5.Oakley, (currently in quarantine) before the incident 40 breeder, coconut bark, hide, water dish, and some foliage. 95 hot, 65 cold. I have an accurite thermometer for each cage measuring hot w/probe on bottom glass. 100% humidity.
Hissy 10 gallon, coconut bark, small hide, water dish, log hide, foliage. 95 hot 70 cold. 100% humidity.
6. I have always fed f/t and I dangled the mouse in front of them for about 5 minutes with no reaction at all.
7. I feed them about 7 days apart
8. I feed them medium f/t mice, resort back to 6.
9. I handle Oakley almost every day but mainly because of placing neosporin on his injury. Hissy once every few days.
10. Oakley must have been this past Saturday or Sunday and it was a full shed, Hissy has been about 3 or 4 weeks and hers was complete, too.

I am going to try the tubs idea to get them to eat and maybe have them as their permanent homes depending on how it turns out. I guess I'm slightly stubborn because I really enjoy the look of the glass aquariums. I'm assuming I would need to build a small rack system to house both of them on it at once.

65 and 70 degrees is too low for ball pythons. is there any way that you could bump up their cool end to 75-80? maybe a small room heater or something? Have your snakes ever taken frozen/thawed from you, or eaten for you yet (on their own)? If not, I would try live just to get them started. Assist feeding/force feeding is 100 times more stressful and potentially more dangerous for BP's than feeding appropriate sized live mice/rats will ever be. It's all about being responsible and supervising live feedings every time, and not being afraid to jump in and put something in the rodent's mouth if he starts chewing.

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

1. Oakley since around mid November and Hissy around the end of November.
2. They are kept in separate tanks, Oakley in a 40 breeder (I know too big but I plan to downgrade) and Hissy in a 10 gallon aquarium.
3. I received Oakley from a friend who could no longer keep him and Hissy from Emerald Bay, a reputable source that is local, they do a lot of business with famous people and athletes.
4. Not sure how old, I suspect Hissy is slightly older because she is a few inches longer. They are both fairly small I am not sure about exact age or weight. But they are a bit larger than the snake on this thread.
5.Oakley, (currently in quarantine) before the incident 40 breeder, coconut bark, hide, water dish, and some foliage. 95 hot, 65 cold. I have an accurite thermometer for each cage measuring hot w/probe on bottom glass. 100% humidity.
Hissy 10 gallon, coconut bark, small hide, water dish, log hide, foliage. 95 hot 70 cold. 100% humidity.
6. I have always fed f/t and I dangled the mouse in front of them for about 5 minutes with no reaction at all.
7. I feed them about 7 days apart
8. I feed them medium f/t mice, resort back to 6.
9. I handle Oakley almost every day but mainly because of placing neosporin on his injury. Hissy once every few days.
10. Oakley must have been this past Saturday or Sunday and it was a full shed, Hissy has been about 3 or 4 weeks and hers was complete, too.

I am going to try the tubs idea to get them to eat and maybe have them as their permanent homes depending on how it turns out. I guess I'm slightly stubborn because I really enjoy the look of the glass aquariums. I'm assuming I would need to build a small rack system to house both of them on it at once.

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drop your humidity down to 50-60% temps 92 and 80-83 ball up a bunch of news paper and throw it in your big tank to take up alot of that extra space for now. (i got a big tank too i just keep it filled) dont touch your balls for a week then get a live weanling mouse and throw it in the tank and leave them alone. just cause your bp didnt eat a mouse after 5 min dont mean anything my one used to make me hold that thing for 15-20 min like it was some sort of game, she likes to stalk her prey (she eats live now) im missing something but someone will catch it

oh and stop force feeding they can go sometime with out eating my one girl hasnt ate since oct

since ya'll are much wiser than i am i'm gonna switch them to the tubs. 10 qt? new uth? what about substatre? i would like something more than paper. would it be ok to go back to coconut bark?

There's no need to. It would create too much humidity. Try aspen or cypress mulch.

I use newspaper and it's much easier to clean. Plus, when you clean, you KNOW it's clean. There's no questioning if there's urine or a BM hiding somewhere.

well I may have to just jack some Brawny from my mother in law then. lol. I guess I could go with the paper so they too can see how lousy the world is. lol.

I am assuming that everything else was correct? How long, theoretically, would it be before they grow out of the 10 qt? Also, what style am I looking for as in long, deep?

Wowwww 100% humidity is WAY too much! That much humidity can actually be extremely harmful to their health. 50%-60% for usual humidity, and 70% during shed. You never wanna go more than 80%. I'd say that's probably one of the biggest reasons they're not eating. And it's way too cold. Fix the cool side, get the humidity down, and I bet you they'll start eating in a few weeks if you leave them alone. Plus Oakley's probably been stressed from the very beginning because of that gigantic tank, which is pushing it even if he was an adult.

You should've tried giving them live before assist-feeding. Supervised live feeding is perfectly fine. You do not want to leave a mouse/rat in overnight. All of my snakes accept my adult male are great feeders. I usually give him about half an hour before I take the rat out. If they don't eat, wait until next week. It won't hurt the snakes to go without food for a little while.

like I said i'm gonna try and go to walmart within the next few days and get them tubs. I can get the rest on trade in credit at the pet store I go to because I am bringing some stuff back. I can also get some spare wood together and make thema rack for our room.

what is the easiest way to secure the top of a tub? I assume I wouldn't be able to stack one tub on top of the other unless it was a rack system.

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

what is the easiest way to secure the top of a tub? I assume I wouldn't be able to stack one tub on top of the other unless it was a rack system.

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bungee cord is cheap and easy

OK my friend every one else pretty much has the right answers except one...

You do not have to change to tubs. You do have to change what size enclosure they are in. People who like the Glass Vivarium usually use a 20 gallon long. Depending on where you live they run around $75-$125 each. You will want to use this resource that some one has painstakingly made for those who use glass. I know a lot of people have used this and have a great husbandry set up. It is more expensive but if you really want to use a glass tank then this is the only way to go. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56846

If you can not afford to put the money into a set up like this then tubs would be best for you. There is a DIY forum for racks and tubs. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=68

Hope some of this helps. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here. If it looks like some one is attacking you for what you are doing or if it looks like they are angry normally it is just because they are angry the person was mis-informed or the person is not listening.

OP, just know.... that we all know what kind of advice you got at the pet store. this isn't the first time that has happened!

Follow the advice so far, and continue to ask quesitons along the way. I agree you can still use a tank if you really want, but it needs to be a 20 long, and it is expensive to get right compared to a tub setup that costs about 1/5 as much.

(I have about 6 snakes in tanks... the other 15 or so are in racks.)

Mike

Everyone seems to have covered everything. My only comment would be that everyone jumps to feeding live extremely quickly. Remember that a healthy ball python can go a few weeks without eating no problem. Really they can go a few months if they are big enough to begin with. I recently had my BP refuse to take F/T mice. She went 21 days between feedings. There was no secret to making her eat again. I read over the care sheets again. Checked everything, I decided to increase the size of her hides just a bit so that she would have a bit more room to take a mouse in her hide and eat in peace. I offered her a mouse every 5 days till she finally ate. She has had 3 meals back to back 5 days apart since. F/T is a perfectly fine way to feed snakes you just have to be patient. Have your husbandry up to snuff and make sure the mouse is in good shape and heated up to the temp of a live mouse. Sometimes I find that my BP will come up to the mouse flick her tongue at it, stare at it with those heat pits of hers and I swear I can here her say "Could you warm that up a bit for me, and stop phoning it in. I need you to make the mouse dance, make me believe that its scared, confused and a long way from home." I heat the mouse up a bit more grab my tongs and give her a good show and she scares the crap out of me with a violent strike and wrap.

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Originally Posted by hoax

You do not have to change to tubs. You do have to change what size enclosure they are in. People who like the Glass Vivarium usually use a 20 gallon long. Depending on where you live they run around $75-$125 each.

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I highly recommend the Critter Cage from Zilla. It has a sliding screen built in to the top of the tank. It is very secure and well made.

http://www.zilla-rules.com/products/critter-cages.htm

JohnNJ

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Everyone seems to have covered everything. My only comment would be that everyone jumps to feeding live extremely quickly.

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No everyone is not jumping to live, but people are rather suggesting to try live (that’s different and based on experience), there is absolutely NO REASON to assist an healthy BP.

Assist feeding should be done as a LAST RESORT when everything has failed and the health of the animal is declining.

In this case as I suspected (hence my questions) there is no reason to assist, there are husbandry issues. Even when solved if the animals are still not eating assisting will still not be the answer.

Also when acquiring a new animal the priority is to get them to eat not switched, switching should be done when the animal is eating with consistency and is well established.

I live in a cold house so tubs will definitly be my best bet when it comes to keeping the humidity/temps correct. Once I get them done how long should I wait to handle them while they get used to their new surroundings? Oakley is currently nursing an injury so how long should I wait to try and feed him? Can I keep the same schedule with Hissy too?

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

I live in a cold house so tubs will definitly be my best bet when it comes to keeping the humidity/temps correct. Once I get them done how long should I wait to handle them while they get used to their new surroundings? Oakley is currently nursing an injury so how long should I wait to try and feed him? Can I keep the same schedule with Hissy too?

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Once you adjust your husbandry, give them 7 to 10 days without any handling (if possible).

Once 7 days have passed try to offer food preferably the same kind of prey they used to eat prior to you acquiring them.

While Oakley might still refuse food (due to the stress of having to treat him daily) I would still try to offer food and see if after a week in his new environment he will take it.

Good luck.

Ya'll have no idea how much help ya'll have been. I went today and got the tubs and supplies. As I type I am working on getting the temps right and once my fiancee gets home with the hides I'll take some pics. I couldn't get 10 qt because they only had 1 so I went ahead and got 2 19 qts. I like them better because they are a little bit taller. I have the UTHs on repti-temp 500r's (I know I need thermostats) and I am watching it closely to dial in the temps for both of them. I am using the accurite thermometers that I had on the old tanks to measure it.

Hissy exploring the new digs. I know the hide is a bit big but I am gonna pick up a smaller one tomorrow for hers and one for oakley.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...6/100_1503.jpg

Sounds good. Now get them all set up and leave them alone for a week. Then try to feed. i would definately recomend you try live. a live rat pup would prob be best because you can leave them in overnight without them hurting the snake.

The most important thing is... once you wait a week and try to feed them the live rat pup, if they don't eat you take the pup out the next day and wait another full week before attempting the same thing again. same day, same time try to feed the same size rat pup. I know it is about enough to make you crazy but they can go a long time without eating. As soon as you assist feed again, your back to square one. When they get hungry they will eat. That could be 7 days from now, it could be 7 weeks from now.

Keep us posted.

i will definitely keep everyone updated. do I need the 2 hides or will one do because of having the foliage in there? She has went into her hide once and keeps exploring. lol.

2 hides are preferable. They should be identical. The snake should just BARELY be able to fit in them. Remember, the more cramped the better.

Nothing wrong with the foliage but it isn't necesarry and is just one more thing to clean.

Mike

it's not hard and they enoy it. I'll make sure to get 4 small hides today then. They crawled around exploring for about 10-20 minutes each last night.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No everyone is not jumping to live, but people are rather suggesting to try live (that’s different and based on experience), there is absolutely NO REASON to assist an healthy BP.

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I exaggerated a bit. Many people said try live without any details other than the person is assist feeding. I guess I just wanted to here more details before people suggested trying live prey. How long since the snakes last meal and what size was it? How old is the snake and what is its current weight? How many refusals before the first assist feed? How long do you wait before offering again? How are you preparing the F/T mouse?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Assist feeding should be done as a LAST RESORT when everything has failed and the health of the animal is declining.

In this case as I suspected (hence my questions) there is no reason to assist, there are husbandry issues. Even when solved if the animals are still not eating assisting will still not be the answer.

Also when acquiring a new animal the priority is to get them to eat not switched, switching should be done when the animal is eating with consistency and is well established.

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I was in no way condoning the assist feedings. I was pointing out that maybe moving to live was not necessary just yet. For all we know based on everything I have read on this post the snake refuses and is then assist fed, every 7 days. If that is the case I think fixing some husbandry issues, presenting a room and trying a F/T heated to normal mouse body temp would be a solid plan. Obviously if the snakes health is declining then offering live is probably the best bet to get the snake to eat.

Where would I go about getting the live rat pups? The only way my fiancee can think is to breed rats but that's not happening because of living with her mom for now. Is there anywhere online or on here because she wants to try and feed them soon because it's been a week.

Just try live mice. Feed what is readily available and easy for you to obtain. If the snakes eat those on a regular basis and are growing/gaining weight, it doesn't matter if they eat mice or rats. There is no nutritional difference between the two and since we don't know the nutritional requirements of Ball Pythons, it doesn't matter anyway :)

When you get the mice, put them in a critter keeper or cage for 30 minutes to an hour next to the snakes' enclosures. This gets the snakes ready so they know what will happen. Turn the lights off too.

After that time has passed, go in the room with a flashlight and put a mouse in each snake's tub. Close the lid and leave. Well-fed prey that is calm will not hurt your snake whatsoever.

If they have not taken the mice within 15 minutes or so, take the mice out and wait another week. Don't handle them at all in this time.

I have found a place in TN what breeds feeder mice/rats. If we feed them mice will the BP's take rats when they get bigger or will they prefer mice? The site i found them on is here. They are relatively cheap either way and I have a box I can keep the rats in for feeding and one for just in case they don't eat them. Which size should I get?

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Originally Posted by Little B-Py

I have found a place in TN what breeds feeder mice/rats. If we feed them mice will the BP's take rats when they get bigger or will they prefer mice? The site i found them on is here. They are relatively cheap either way and I have a box I can keep the rats in for feeding and one for just in case they don't eat them. Which size should I get?

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Switching them is another issue. Get them eating on their own first.

Make sure you you don't keep rats in cardboard for too long they can make their way out of them. (At least the ones that are old enough and have teeth)

I don't know if you got the smaller hides yet but if you didn't just use the bigger ones and stuff paper towels or newspapers in it to make it more snug. This will save you on money on getting bigger ones when they grow out of the small ones.

Ok, so I will look at getting mice. Look on the site please and tell me what size.

I went ahead and got small hides for them because at EBay (Emerald Bay) my fiancee is really good friends with them and gets them cheaper than anywhere else. They have actually given us some frozen mice before which was schweet! lol. I stashed their old hides for use when they are larger anyways.

Went today and got mice, prescented for 30 minutes and the mice are now in the tubs with them...we will see how it turns out in about 30...

And I we have news............................................................................ ...................
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........................THEY ATE THE MICE!!!!!! Probably within 10 minutes if not less from the time we put them in there.

Good job :)

See? All it took was proper husbandry, some alone time and letting them know dinner has arrived and they reward you with eating, growth and poop, LoL.

It's rewarding when they start thriving for you.

oh trust me, I was jumping around the hosue in excitement when Asthin opened Oakley's tub and saw that he was already done with his and back in his hide and Hissy was working on eating it. My mom-in-law was excited about it too, kinda weird because she hates it when me and Ashtin bring new animals to the house, we are up to 5 as you can see by my sig. lol. My fiancee expected that one of the mice had an inner ear infection...it kept running around in circles, poor guy probably never saw it coming.

We also got a rat for a "pet" or at least that's what Ashtin lied to her mom about, he is gonna be our breeder later in his life.

Be sure to get that male rat a same sex buddy so he won't get lonely. They are very social little guys and really need a buddy to develop properly, both socially and mentally.

my fiancee brought home 2 males awhile back and we kept them as pets for 2 or 3 months, then she wanted a snake and I told her she had to liquidate pets. lol. A buddy will have to wait for a bit unless my buddy would let us keep them over with him because her mom won't have any more pets in the house unless some leave...and that's not happening.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Be sure to get that male rat a same sex buddy so he won't get lonely. They are very social little guys and really need a buddy to develop properly, both socially and mentally.

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Sorry to pursue this tangent but a friend had a pet rat during college that lived a solitary life and was well adjusted.

My friend was a grad student and used the rat in psych experiments. When the class was over the rats were to be euthenized. He had grown quite fond of his lab partner and couldn't let that happen so he rescued him. He died of natural causes several years later and lived a full and happy life as a bachelor rat.

JohnNJ

well our bachelor rat will hopefully one day become a full on PIMP! lol. Once we get our own place I would like to get a few more BPs and maybe start up a small business of selling feeder rats/mice to local people just to help with people that need/want feeders or even pet rats. The male she got is acutally pretty cute, he is a light tan color.

But at least the little ones are feeding now, made me so happy to see a mouse hanging out of Hissy's mouth last night. Oakley must have been REALLY hungry because he scarfed it down and was scrunched in his hide before the 30 minutes was up. I wish there was some way of putting a low-light camera in there just to see how long it is before they eat...they can't see red light, correct? I was thinking of cutting a square hole in the top of the tub to help with prescenting and I could put a non-heat red light on there and lay in the room watching them w/ only that light on...

By the way i'm new and i'm Steffen's fiance aka little b-py. I usually am the one bringing the animals home.I love all my animals and am very happy ya'll told Steff how to get our little balls eating the normal way.I always felt bad for assist feeding my little girl.