Whirlwind / Spector / Super Stripe Questions!

Alright, I know that there has been some good discusions about the Whirlwind / Spector / Super Stripes but I have yet to find answers to a couple of questions.

Has the Homozygous form of the Whirlwind / Spector been produced?

If It has was there a visible difference between the Homozygous and Heterozygous forms? Pics if possible!

Just curious! It would an awesome little breeding group to have a Homozygous male whirlwind / Spector and a couple Ivories to to pair him up with.... Think All Super Stripes!

On another note. I know the project is still fairly young but has it been decided definitively that Whirlwind / Spector and Yellow Belly are mutations of the same gene?

If so then you could also just do Super Stripe paired with a couple Ivories and get all Super Stripes and Ivories! That would be awesome too!

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Originally Posted by JAMills

On another note. I know the project is still fairly young but has it been decided definitively that Whirlwind / Spector and Yellow Belly are mutations of the same gene?

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Wow you made my head hurt trying to think about all that you just said!

Think they did decide it was the same gene due to the fact that when the super stripe was bred to a normal female it was unable to reproduce itself.
And to the best of my knowledge, from what I have heard and read, the homozygous form of the whirlwind/spector has not been produced yet. And if it has no one knows they have a homozygous one yet.

I know this isnt real helpful but thats all I know about it.

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Originally Posted by JAMills

[...]Has the Homozygous form of the Whirlwind / Spector been produced?[...]

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as far as I know, the answer to that is "no"... in fact, from what I understand, nobody is even trying to hit the super yet... everybody is aiming for SuperStripe and SuperStripe combos I believe...

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Originally Posted by JAMills

[...]On another note. I know the project is still fairly young but has it been decided definitively that Whirlwind / Spector and Yellow Belly are mutations of the same gene?

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from what I've read, a SuperStripe bred to normals doesn't produce any normals.. just Ivories and Spectors/Whirlwind/HetSuperStripe... so it does seem like Yellow Belly and Spector/Whirlwind are alleles (mutations of the same gene so to speak)...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JAMills

If so then you could also just do Super Stripe paired with a couple Ivories and get all Super Stripes and Ivories! That would be awesome too!

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from what I understand, that would be correct!!

Regards,
Bristen.

I have never heard of some of these. for those of us, less knowledgeable..
Can you post pics of what these nice snakes look like?

TY
Carol

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

I have never heard of some of these. for those of us, less knowledgeable..
Can you post pics of what these nice snakes look like?

TY
Carol

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Try this link:
http://imageevent.com/royalpythonrep...ripeballpython

Regards,
Bristen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristen

from what I've read, a SuperStripe bred to normals doesn't produce any normals.. just Ivories and Spectors/Whirlwind/HetSuperStripe... so it does seem like Yellow Belly and Spector/Whirlwind are alleles (mutations of the same gene so to speak)...
Regards,
Bristen.

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a super stripe to a normal would not give you an ivory! only yellowbellies and het superstripes

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Originally Posted by nixer

a super stripe to a normal would not give you an ivory! only yellowbellies and het superstripes

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good catch! That's what I really meant... some kind of brain fart I guess :| Sorry about that and thanks for pointing it out :)

Regards,
Bristen.

The verdict is still not out on all of this. Mark Haas recently produced an Ivory with what he told me has Super Stripe head markings (could be an Ivory Super Stripe), from a Super Stripe to Yellow Belly breeding. That would kind of disprove the Yellow Belly and the Specter/Whirlwind/Het Super Stripe being on the same Allele theory.

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Originally Posted by Albey

The verdict is still not out on all of this. Mark Haas recently produced an Ivory with what he told me has Super Stripe head markings (could be an Ivory Super Stripe), from a Super Stripe to Yellow Belly breeding. That would kind of disprove the Yellow Belly and the Specter/Whirlwind/Het Super Stripe being on the same Allele theory.

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id like to see pics because my ivory has markings that are close to what the superstripe has.
even pastel ivories have this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Albey

The verdict is still not out on all of this. Mark Haas recently produced an Ivory with what he told me has Super Stripe head markings (could be an Ivory Super Stripe), from a Super Stripe to Yellow Belly breeding. That would kind of disprove the Yellow Belly and the Specter/Whirlwind/Het Super Stripe being on the same Allele theory.

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that's very interesting... however, a Super Stripe to a Yellow Belly would in fact produce Ivories if the same allele theory is correct... the real test will be if breeding that ivory to a normal produces any het SuperStripes... I personally doubt as I favor the same allele theory according to the results we've seen so far, I'd say it's the most plausible explanation... however, we can't be sure without further breeding.. anybody that has the SuperStripe project in hand appear to be aiming for more SuperStripes... so I'm sure we'll get more (probably lots) SuperStripe to normal breedings in 2009... what I'm curious about, is what the super Spector/Whirlwind will be? I think people should try to work on that one... could be something new, exciting and unexpected... who knows?

Regards,
Bristen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristen

that's very interesting... however, a Super Stripe to a Yellow Belly would in fact produce Ivories if the same allele theory is correct... the real test will be if breeding that ivory to a normal produces any het SuperStripes... I personally doubt as I favor the same allele theory according to the results we've seen so far, I'd say it's the most plausible explanation... however, we can't be sure without further breeding.. anybody that has the SuperStripe project in hand appear to be aiming for more SuperStripes... so I'm sure we'll get more (probably lots) SuperStripe to normal breedings in 2009... what I'm curious about, is what the super Spector/Whirlwind will be? I think people should try to work on that one... could be something new, exciting and unexpected... who knows?

Regards,
Bristen.

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Right you are Bristen. :) In SS projects, it will be the Spector FEMALES and male/female Super Spectors that will be the powerhouse breeding jewels.

Breedable Ivory females would not be a bad second place!!! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristen

that's very interesting... however, a Super Stripe to a Yellow Belly would in fact produce Ivories if the same allele theory is correct... the real test will be if breeding that ivory to a normal produces any het SuperStripes... I personally doubt as I favor the same allele theory according to the results we've seen so far, I'd say it's the most plausible explanation... however, we can't be sure without further breeding.. anybody that has the SuperStripe project in hand appear to be aiming for more SuperStripes... so I'm sure we'll get more (probably lots) SuperStripe to normal breedings in 2009... what I'm curious about, is what the super Spector/Whirlwind will be? I think people should try to work on that one... could be something new, exciting and unexpected... who knows?

Regards,
Bristen.

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I am still trying to grasp the whole same Allele thing but I know that when the news of Mark hatching it was released in a thread over on Kingsnake it caused quite a commotion. I saved the thread on my desktop but it is gone now. There was some heated discussion going on and I know Anthony McCain was one of the principle players but it seemed civil enough. Who knows why it was pulled. I have a call into Mark but I don’t know if he will get back to me or not. The only way it matters though is if it is in fact an Ivory Super Stripe right?

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am still trying to grasp the whole same Allele thing but I know that when the news of Mark hatching it was released in a thread over on Kingsnake it caused quite a commotion. I saved the thread on my desktop but it is gone now. There was some heated discussion going on and I know Anthony McCain was one of the principle players but it seemed civil enough. Who knows why it was pulled. I have a call into Mark but I don’t know if he will get back to me or not. The only way it matters though is if it is in fact an Ivory Super Stripe right?

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I agree Albey. One would think enough SS to normal breeding will be done this season to get to the bottom of the Allele question??? I would take a 10 egg clutch from big normal girl that would give me a 5.5 Y.B.'s/Spectors!!!

I still think that the SS project has alot of potential as it cant be produced in numbers as its a codom thats treated like a simple res. just my 2 cents...
Kevin Stoltz

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am still trying to grasp the whole same Allele thing but I know that when the news of Mark hatching it was released in a thread over on Kingsnake it caused quite a commotion. I saved the thread on my desktop but it is gone now. There was some heated discussion going on and I know Anthony McCain was one of the principle players but it seemed civil enough. Who knows why it was pulled. I have a call into Mark but I don’t know if he will get back to me or not. The only way it matters though is if it is in fact an Ivory Super Stripe right?

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yes, as far as I know, that would break the current allele theory on the SuperStripe project... We probably wouldn't be able to tell if it was other than to breed it because there may not be anything visibly different from a regular Ivory - if such a combination exists at all. It will be useful to see what this particular animal produces, but by the time anything is produced by it, we may already have a good idea what's going on with all the Spector x Normal breedings that will hopefully occur in 2009.

I personally have a "possible spector" project that I'm working on now, and hopefully this year will prove it out. My original "possible spector" will be bred to a yellow belly male.. I was hoping to get my hands on an Ivory male, but ends up that a yellow belly male will have to do... hopefully I'll hit a cross this year... in 2007, she produced some nice spider crosses (2.0) and 2 possible spectors (1.1) plus what appears to be a regular spider and a few normals... I'm not holding my breath on this one, but I'm quite hopeful it will prove out. I believe the SuperStripes are really nice, and certainly will be popular for a LONG time... If they are harder to produce (not like a bumble bee or pewter for example), it would actually increase their value as well... Here's to hoping!! :)

Regards,
Bristen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristen

yes, as far as I know, that would break the current allele theory on the SuperStripe project... We probably wouldn't be able to tell if it was other than to breed it because there may not be anything visibly different from a regular Ivory - if such a combination exists at all. It will be useful to see what this particular animal produces, but by the time anything is produced by it, we may already have a good idea what's going on with all the Spector x Normal breedings that will hopefully occur in 2009.

I personally have a "possible spector" project that I'm working on now, and hopefully this year will prove it out. My original "possible spector" will be bred to a yellow belly male.. I was hoping to get my hands on an Ivory male, but ends up that a yellow belly male will have to do... hopefully I'll hit a cross this year... in 2007, she produced some nice spider crosses (2.0) and 2 possible spectors (1.1) plus what appears to be a regular spider and a few normals... I'm not holding my breath on this one, but I'm quite hopeful it will prove out. I believe the SuperStripes are really nice, and certainly will be popular for a LONG time... If they are harder to produce (not like a bumble bee or pewter for example), it would actually increase their value as well... Here's to hoping!! :)

Regards,
Bristen.

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While Spectors are FAR!!!! more rare than Y.B. -- I believe they do exist in a few collections. One just has to find them!!!

Good luck on your project proving Bristen. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

While Spectors are FAR!!!! more rare than Y.B. -- I believe they do exist in a few collections. One just has to find them!!!

Good luck on your project proving Bristen. :gj:

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Thanks Bill, no harm in trying ;)

just for the fun of it, if anyone reading this thread owns Spectors/Whirlwinds or has seen them, please have a peak at these pictures and let me know what you think!

Original female, possible Spector, ovulating for the 2007 clutch:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF1835.jpg

A few babies from the 2007 clutch (2 possible spider crosses, 1 spider, 1 possible spector and a normal from another clutch):
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u.../DSCF15508.jpg

A possible Spider x Spector cross on right, with regular spider in shed from another clutch on left:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u.../DSCF15320.jpg

A possible spector on left after a few sheds with a normal from another clutch on right:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u.../DSCF15349.jpg

Very nice snakes Bristen! Hope they prove out for ya. I really would like to get some Specter / Whirlwind blood in my collection. Maybe this year that will happen.

i have an 07 spector female who should be ready by next year and someone else here has one close to the same size as mine. i also have an ivory male and a pastel yellowbelly as a backup both males are 08s. im pretty excited about this project and a few others i have in the works

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Originally Posted by nixer

i have an 07 spector female who should be ready by next year and someone else here has one close to the same size as mine. i also have an ivory male and a pastel yellowbelly as a backup both males are 08s. im pretty excited about this project and a few others i have in the works

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you sure should be excited!! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristen

yes, as far as I know, that would break the current allele theory on the SuperStripe project... We probably wouldn't be able to tell if it was other than to breed it because there may not be anything visibly different from a regular Ivory - if such a combination exists at all. It will be useful to see what this particular animal produces, but by the time anything is produced by it, we may already have a good idea what's going on with all the Spector x Normal breedings that will hopefully occur in 2009.

I personally have a "possible spector" project that I'm working on now, and hopefully this year will prove it out. My original "possible spector" will be bred to a yellow belly male.. I was hoping to get my hands on an Ivory male, but ends up that a yellow belly male will have to do... hopefully I'll hit a cross this year... in 2007, she produced some nice spider crosses (2.0) and 2 possible spectors (1.1) plus what appears to be a regular spider and a few normals... I'm not holding my breath on this one, but I'm quite hopeful it will prove out. I believe the SuperStripes are really nice, and certainly will be popular for a LONG time... If they are harder to produce (not like a bumble bee or pewter for example), it would actually increase their value as well... Here's to hoping!! :)

Regards,
Bristen.

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Great to see you active Bristen. I hope you have lots of clutches coming up this season! There aren't' too many breeders around here I can actually trade my offspring with or buy directly from these days (my collection has exploded to 12 balls since I spoke with you back in September).

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Originally Posted by Bristen

you sure should be excited!! :)

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Bristen,

I would say you have a good shot. i guess i have hatched out 16 to 20 spectres. Your adult female isnt exactly what i would look for but she is close. However, the Baby you made looks very good.
I know there are "low Grade" fires that can also closely resemble the spectre. Either way , good problems to have. And Good luck with your upcoming season.

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Originally Posted by Drake_Marcus

Great to see you active Bristen. I hope you have lots of clutches coming up this season! There aren't' too many breeders around here I can actually trade my offspring with or buy directly from these days (my collection has exploded to 12 balls since I spoke with you back in September).

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Who are you Drake_Marcus? You nick name certainly doesn't ring a bell at all...? Please PM me! :)

Regards,
Bristen.

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Originally Posted by roadrunner

Bristen,

I would say you have a good shot. i guess i have hatched out 16 to 20 spectres. Your adult female isnt exactly what i would look for but she is close. However, the Baby you made looks very good.
I know there are "low Grade" fires that can also closely resemble the spectre. Either way , good problems to have. And Good luck with your upcoming season.

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wow, thanks! The female is not what I would of expected for an adult Specter either, but she's an ex-pet and could be 10 years old or more... she's very "burgundy" (lots of red in her), but doesn't look like most Specter pictures I've seen online... however, it's the babies that got me going... I have an incredibly nice gold-striped spider in that clutch that is very clean and more yellow than normal spiders... I also have 1.1 babies in there that resembled Specter's quite a bit... that's when I figured it may be possible... I didn't expect anything special from this female, but after consulting with others, at least ONE person that has hatched SuperStripes said that this looked like the real thing... you are the second person to give me positive feedback now... I can't wait!! Thank you for taking the time to respond, much appreciated :)

Regards,
Bristen.

I think the one baby looks pretty close, the head looks real good , it does seem to be a little off in color however to me. The mother is the one that I question the most, she is more normal in coloration than the Whirlwinds I have seen . I think the problem is that there are alot of Balls with weird head markings on them , and ALOT of them turn out to be just pretty normals.
Please repost your results when you get a clutch from her sired by your Yb , she is plenty big enough to hit the 1 in 4 odds of a Super Stripe if that is what she indeed is.

As for the Ivory Super Stripe, I had a male Ivory I made in 07 that we thought looked different enough to be an Ivory Super Stripe. He had 2 potential fathers, one was my 06 Super Stripe the other possible father was a Pastel Yb. When I got babies out of the Ivory he proved to just be a Pastel Ivory. I personally think that a Super Stripe Ivory will ONLY be made if the Whirlwind and Yb act as a "cross over situation" if that is what is going on then they wouldn't be true alleles of each other but instead just be close enough alleles that they link up together and make the Super Stripe. Then in that case I could see a Super Stripe Ivory coming into play at some point BUT even then it wouldn't be a simple 1 in 8 odds of hitting that since in theory you'd have to break down the "cross over" in order for that to even work. So in a nutshell it would be alot harder to make the Super Stripe Ivory than most would want to mess with, IF it was even possible do to the presence of a "cross over". In 2009's production we should get enough info to know what is really going on.

Anthony McCain

Bristen -- I actually have a female that looks real similar to yours, who threw some offspring that looked real similar to yours also last year. The thought of her being a specter had never even crossed my mind, but now I'm wishing I had a yellowbelly over here right now to give it a shot and find out.

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Originally Posted by McCain

I think the one baby looks pretty close, the head looks real good , it does seem to be a little off in color however to me. The mother is the one that I question the most, she is more normal in coloration than the Whirlwinds I have seen . I think the problem is that there are alot of Balls with weird head markings on them , and ALOT of them turn out to be just pretty normals.
Please repost your results when you get a clutch from her sired by your Yb , she is plenty big enough to hit the 1 in 4 odds of a Super Stripe if that is what she indeed is. [...]

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I don't blame you questioning the original female.. I wasn't expecting anything fancy out of that clutch either.. it's the babies that convinced me there could be something going on... after seeing the babies, I could see some traits in the mother that could indicate a Specter/Whirlwind... however, it would really not be an obvious one if that's what she is... no eggs yet though...

Thanks for taking time to post your opinion!

Regards,
Bristen.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Bristen -- I actually have a female that looks real similar to yours, who threw some offspring that looked real similar to yours also last year. The thought of her being a specter had never even crossed my mind, but now I'm wishing I had a yellowbelly over here right now to give it a shot and find out.

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Male YB's are cheap, get one ASAP! Don't hold your breath or anything, but you have to try... just in case...

Regards,
Bristen.

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Originally Posted by Bristen

Male YB's are cheap, get one ASAP! Don't hold your breath or anything, but you have to try... just in case...

Regards,
Bristen.

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I'm already looking to get a yellowbelly combo male this year, so it's in the works. Hopefully whatever I get will go for me next season.

Here's a picture of the mother from last season, she's the lighter of the two. She's a wild caught that was imported in 2006, so no clue on her age. She's got a head spot in the same shape as yours but it's VERY faded and not anywhere near as pronounced.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...d_max-2008.jpg

These are the two offspring (out of five) that yours reminded me of. They're both a lighter yellowish color than their siblings, and they both have that same headspot.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...08-f2-0904.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...08-m1-0904.jpg

We've thought there might be something special about her, but I just chalked it up to wishful thinking. When you said you were going to breed a yellowbelly to yours this year, did you mean the current season or next season? I'd be real interested in hearing what the results of that clutch are.

Hi Chris,

I can see some resemblances for sure, but yours seem less pronounced (from pictures anyways). Best of luck, I'd certainly be trying if I were you!

As for my pair, they are breeding THIS season... I'm really hoping on hitting a YB cross - and hopefully it will be the best looking Super Stripe ever ;)

Good luck and keep us posted! I'll certainly post pictures if/when the clutch hatches.

Regards,
Bristen.

Bristen any babies yet

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Originally Posted by kyleh

Bristen any babies yet

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heh, I'm surprised anybody even remembered this thread!! So here's the scoop... they "bred" in 2009, but the female did not produce anything... even though I wanted to breed them this year, I actually took the year off breeding ball pythons... I still have the animals and the entire clutch that I produced as well (with a Spider cross and a few possible specters)... hopefully I'll get to the bottom of that project this (*EDIT* I meant "next") year, but it won't be this year unless I notice the female building despite not going through cooling...

Thanks for the interest!
Bristen.

Yes people do keep track of old threads! Keep us posted on what you figure out! Post some pics this summer of those babies now that they are bigger , would like to see a good belly shot if you could as well..

Also email me privately as I have something to tell you that may help you , go to my site and just email me there..

Thanks,

Anthony McCain

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Originally Posted by McCain

Yes people do keep track of old threads! Keep us posted on what you figure out! Post some pics this summer of those babies now that they are bigger , would like to see a good belly shot if you could as well..

Also email me privately as I have something to tell you that may help you , go to my site and just email me there..

Thanks,

Anthony McCain

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Belly pictures... sure, I'll attempt to do that... they do have interesting bellies that appear to be consistent... (sent you a PM to get your email address)

Thanks for the interest!
Bristen.

Here are a few belly pictures for you Anthony...

F52 (Original Adult Female)

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF7702.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF7699.jpg

F52_07_06 (What I believe to be a Spider cross - male)

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF7712.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF7726.jpg

F52_07_04 (male I produced)

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF7744.jpg

F52_07_02 (female I produced)

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF7739.jpg

Let me know if those tell you anything!

PS: I never found your email yet :)

Regards,
Bristen.

Very cool project, I'm just now suspecting my girl of possibly being a spectre as well. If not, I really like yellowbellies regardless and I'm getting one anyways, plus I'm a strong believer in nicer normals will make nicer examples of morphs. Gonna prove or bunk both of them in a couple years anyway lol. ~Caylan.S.~

Hey guys, I'm relatively new to this site and ball pythons. I was browsing a pet store about a year ago and found a unique ball python who was labeled a pastel. Her pattern is what caught my eye so I took a closer look at her and noticed her belly markings. I bought her thinking it may be a neat genetic morph. At first I thought it could be a spotnose. I sent these pictures to a friend and he suggested that she might be similar to a spector/whirlwind.

What do you guys think?

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...z/DSC00231.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...inz/Belly3.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...kinz/Belly.jpg

Thanks, take care.
Blake Skinner

www.BCSkinzReptiles.com

I'm really no expert, and I'll the people that actually have proven lines chime in... but in my opinion, this one is very black, while mine is more "burgundy-ish"... the babies also having those colors... the bellies on mine are faded while yours is pretty dark... from the very little I know (close to nothing heh!), I'd say it's not the same.... hopefully somebody like Anthony will comment.

Wish you the best with that project!

Bristen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BCSkinz

Hey guys, I'm relatively new to this site and ball pythons. I was browsing a pet store about a year ago and found a unique ball python who was labeled a pastel. Her pattern is what caught my eye so I took a closer look at her and noticed her belly markings. I bought her thinking it may be a neat genetic morph. At first I thought it could be a spotnose. I sent these pictures to a friend and he suggested that she might be similar to a spector/whirlwind.

What do you guys think?

[...snip...]

Thanks, take care.
Blake Skinner

www.BCSkinzReptiles.com

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Just to put this out there. My good friend Ted has something that he thought was a fire. He bred them together and got something crazy.... He calls it discos and super discos. I have a feeling that this snake is actually a spector and super spector. Just my own ideas but I have a feeling his discos will end up being spectors and his super discos are super spectors. He has eggs from discos X YB so we should find out this season if this is correct. I have a feeling it will be. Just my two cents. Check out his suff .... www.s-ecto.com Thanks

Joe

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Originally Posted by JoeEllisReptiles

Just to put this out there. My good friend Ted has something that he thought was a fire. He bred them together and got something crazy.... He calls it discos and super discos. I have a feeling that this snake is actually a spector and super spector. Just my own ideas but I have a feeling his discos will end up being spectors and his super discos are super spectors. He has eggs from discos X YB so we should find out this season if this is correct. I have a feeling it will be. Just my two cents. Check out his suff .... www.s-ecto.com Thanks

Joe

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Hey Joe, thanks for the reply! I actually found the Disco project to be quite interesting and had never heard of this before! That's awesome information. I have to say though, that the Disco pictures I saw appear to have real black on it from what I can see in the pictures, while the original female I personally have is very Burgundy. HOWEVER, it certainly underlines the importance of pursuing the other poster's project. That one actually resembles the disco. The Super Disco looks very cool! And a ringer to boot!

http://www.s-ecto.com/collection/vie...sp?id=20051025

Thanks,
Bristen.

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Originally Posted by Bristen

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/DSCF7726.jpg

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That belly is quite similar to my spiderbelly's belly
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...T4560Small.jpg

edit: nevermind

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

That belly is quite similar to my spiderbelly's belly
[...]

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very interesting! Het Super Stripes and Yellow Belly's are somewhat related... It appears they are alleles (two different mutations of the same gene), so it would make some sense that the belly's could have some similarities, I would guess...?

Thanks for sharing!
Bristen.