WC Gravids?

What are everyone's thoughts on flippers/wholesalers/whatever selling wild caught gravid girls? Is this really necessary? Leave these snakes in the wild. Just my opinion!

When we as consumers quit buying them, they will quit selling them.

Personally I wish they would cut back on the number of all imported Balls. Be it adults, gravids or babies. I certainly aint saying to stop importing completely, just bring the number down a bit.

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Originally Posted by Shrap

When we as consumers quit buying them, they will quit selling them.

Personally I wish they would cut back on the number of all imported Balls. Be it adults, gravids or babies. I certainly aint saying to stop importing completely, just bring the number down a bit.

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Agreed on both points. I would take a nice captive bred animal from a quality breeder over an imported animal from a flipper any day! :D

I don't see the need to drag them out of the wild just so some schmo! can "Hatch Ball Pythons"

I think that if they are properly represented people wouldn't buy them. Tell people flat out hey.

They most likely wont eat once they lay and they are 99.99999999999999999996667% of the time only bread by normals.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

bread by normals.

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White or wheat? :D

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Originally Posted by nate

white or wheat? :d

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:)

I do not vote on many polls simply because of the language of the choices.

It does not "disgust" me... but at the same time I do not agree with it.

I have two WC girls in my collection that were brought into the country, the eggs collected, hatched out, nothing interesting came out of it and the girls were flipped.

I have two of, I believe, six that were brought in. The babes were ALL wholesaled to a pet store and then the person "got out of the hobby".

I adore these two snakes, and have no intention of moving them. I was offered the other four at a discounted price but had my hands full with the two I had so I did not take them. From what I heard the remaining four were dumped at a petstore.

That part does disgust me.

One of the reasons that all six were dumped was because the person that brought them in could not get them feeding. I was fortunate to get both on feed in the first four months.

I hate thinking of the person that ended up with any of these remaining four snakes thinking they were going to be getting a nice pet snake to enjoy. Possibly a new keeper that may or may not have been equipped by a pet store to deal with a healthy BP, let alone a non-feeding WC.

I look at the amount of time I spent IMHO rehabbing these two girls, and it has been A LOT of work.

The part I do not understand is the price and how people end up with those connections? I never see ads for them where I am. Is it worth it to bring them in and then wholesale the babies that hatch out as well as the mothers? I just do not see it as being a financially productive venue.

Bruce <--- who spent many hours on the phone with JoAnna getting those snakes to eat.

I guess that part I left out... was that if a person was committed to the snakes after the fact, and did rehab them and get them back on track then it would not be as bad for me.

I mean we hate people that do this, but we all LOVE seeing the new morphs that come out of Africa... so I guess that is why I have no set opinion on it.

If I am going to hate anyone that brings in a WC, then I have to hate anyone that imports a WC morph as well.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Bruce

I don't disagree with it (I would not purchase one, though), but I do believe there should much more regulation going on. It seems that just about any idiot out to make a quick buck can import these poor animals, and then send them to an almost certain death in the hands of someone without experience.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I guess that part I left out... was that if a person was committed to the snakes after the fact, and did rehab them and get them back on track then it would not be as bad for me.

I mean we hate people that do this, but we all LOVE seeing the new morphs that come out of Africa... so I guess that is why I have no set opinion on it.

If I am going to hate anyone that brings in a WC, then I have to hate anyone that imports a WC morph as well.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Bruce

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You've made a really good point. I'm undecided as well because of this reason. I don't se any problems in importing ball pythons, but I don't necessarily agree with bringing in obviously gravid females. Just think of how much stress they are already going through from being gravid, and then the stress of being picked up, bagged, sorted out and picked through again, bagged AGAIN, and then shipped out, only to arrive to go through the exact same process to go to who knows what kind of home (good or bad) has GOT to be even more stressful. That's really the main concern that I have with WC gravid imports. Otherwise, I say bring them in. Bringing in fresh blood can never hurt the BP economy. That is unless someone brings one in with a highly contagious BP virus/bacteria (hello another sickness worse than IBD!)

I really neve runder stood the taking of wild caught animales anymore since ther are so many that now captive breed. PLus I think that if someone wants ot breed any type of snake you should spend the time it takes to raise the animal for the 2-3 years before breeding to get a better understanding of the snake species your interested in. I can only see if taking them out of the wild was a result of them being sold or killed off due to development in the said area but outside thatI they should be left ot roam their little coldblooded heart happy. I have not knowqingly purchased any wild caught animals in my life. I have rescued trutles eggs as a kid ( stoppeed a raccoon from making a meal out of 2 differnt nest in one month ) and hatched them to be released later. I know allpets started at one time as a wild critter. but with so many people tryingo their luck at breeding snakes and everythign now a days I see no need for it.. I would still keep an eye out for he next possible morph but I would not buy the ( graivd animals sicne this is reducign the wild populations even more with the removel of the femal and offsrping ( and future offspring )

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Originally Posted by mechnut450

I really neve runder stood the taking of wild caught animales anymore since ther are so many that now captive breed.

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The thing is, for the amount of demand the Ball Python industry is carrying, we don't captively breed enough of them to answer the populace demand. This has all been covered in a previous thread from a week or so ago. Plus, importing helps regulate the Ball Python populations in Africa. If we didn't import them for pets, they'd still be caught and sold for their skins or meat.

That said, I both agree and disagree with importing gravids. I think it's fine, as long as they are being sold to people who can and will spend the time with them after they lay to rehab them, as Bruce did. I hate to think about the truth of the matter, the fact that so many of them are most likely sold off to pet shops (like Bruce said) and then bought by inexperienced people who don't know crap about Balls.

It's more cost efficient to buy a gravid and hatch out the babies yourself (but I only think this is fine as long as you care for her afterward). But you're most likely only going to get normals. The lucky turd that gets a nice new morph, they bought the wrong gravid, she was sposed to go to me! :D

But I digress. We import to answer the demand on the Ball Python industry, as well to bring in new blood so we lessen the inbreeding mishaps, and also for all those smexy morphs that every single one of us drools over.

I personally wouldn't buy a WC gravid, at least not right now, both because I don't know how I would deal with her, and because I'm too inexperienced to take care of eggs. Maybs a year or two down the road when I know what I'm doing and when I can afford the headache :P

dont think theres a need to import them anymore, theres so many on the market they can leave the snakes be in the wild.:rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Lateralus_Love

The thing is, for the amount of demand the Ball Python industry is carrying, we don't captively breed enough of them to answer the populace demand.

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I have to ask, do you actually breed? Are you out in the market place trying to sell your offspring?

There are 15 or so different shows one can attend within a 3 hour drive of my house almost every month. There are 3 different shows here in Indiana, 3 or 4 in Ohio, 3 or 4 in Michigan, 2 or 3 in Illinois, a couple in Kentucky and one in eastern Missouri.

You know the one common theme among all these shows? Tables upon tables of Ball Pythons that people can not sell. And this is supposed to be the slow season when most people have little to nothing left from the previous year. Just this past Sunday at the Indy herp show there were roughly 50 vendors. 15-20 of those didnt even have Ball Pythons, but between the rest of those vendors there were roughly 500 Balls to choose from.

We dont need to stop importing, but we certainly need to cut back the numbers. There are more being bred now in the US than ever before.

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The thing is, for the amount of demand the Ball Python industry is carrying, we don't captively breed enough of them to answer the populace demand.

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And yet I know of larger breeders that freeze normal males because they don't want to deal with them. Its not that we "can't or don't" produce enough is that we don't have to try because the imports supplement. If all we had to rely on was CBB and you couldn't get imports I have no doubts the demand would be answered.

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This has all been covered in a previous thread from a week or so ago. Plus, importing helps regulate the Ball Python populations in Africa. If we didn't import them for pets, they'd still be caught and sold for their skins or meat.

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So die here or die there I guess it all depends on who's pocket the nickel lands in then is the only difference.

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That said, I both agree and disagree with importing gravids. I think it's fine, as long as they are being sold to people who can and will spend the time with them after they lay to rehab them, as Bruce did. I hate to think about the truth of the matter, the fact that so many of them are most likely sold off to pet shops (like Bruce said) and then bought by inexperienced people who don't know crap about Balls.

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:gj:

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It's more cost efficient to buy a gravid and hatch out the babies yourself (but I only think this is fine as long as you care for her afterward). But you're most likely only going to get normals. The lucky turd that gets a nice new morph, they bought the wrong gravid, she was sposed to go to me! :D

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If people want cost efficient use florescent lights. If you want to hatch Ball Python roll up your sleeves and get bit a little. ITS WORK!!!

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But I digress. We import to answer the demand on the Ball Python industry, as well to bring in new blood so we lessen the inbreeding mishaps, and also for all those smexy morphs that every single one of us drools over.

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I agree but I thought that anything weird was sold to the highest bidder by Noah not imported and sold at rock bottom prices.

The thing is that the reason of new blood, or relieve the population stress in Africa have been around for years and to be honest those animals have been doing just fine regulating their number with out the US pet trade for eons.

I think they be just fine.

Also with importing come the risk of importing new disease and other problems unforeseen genetic problems.

We have worked hard to weed out the junk genetics that cause problems to offer pet owners an animal they can enjoy for many years. You start throwing in new genes and now we start the process all over again.

Just my two cents

Do you think any people buying these WC gravids view it as a kind of "lottery ticket"?

Like they buy up a few of them on the chance of hitting the jackpot and finding some cool new genes?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

What are everyone's thoughts on flippers/wholesalers/whatever selling wild caught gravid girls? Is this really necessary? Leave these snakes in the wild. Just my opinion!

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Well said Jamie :gj:.I wonder what will happen when there are none left in the wild? I am sure the rodents would love it and have a field day spreading diseases from being over populated.

I was told that Petsmart and Petco sell captive hatched bp's. Can anyone verify this? If that is the case then a lot of the demand for wild caught, gravid females is to feed the demand for hatchlings created by these large chain petstores.

If my first statement is not true, then I rescind my point.

For me, I have no greater disdain than for those that bring in WC Gravids. I personally think pregnant females should just naturally be completely off limits, but that's just me.


~Kat

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Originally Posted by lmartelli77

I was told that Petsmart and Petco sell captive hatched bp's. Can anyone verify this? If that is the case then a lot of the demand for wild caught, gravid females is to feed the demand for hatchlings created by these large chain petstores.

If my first statement is not true, then I rescind my point.

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yes they do

why is it that in this whole thread i only see one person refering to facts and not just opinon flinging

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Originally Posted by Lateralus_Love

The thing is, for the amount of demand the Ball Python industry is carrying, we don't captively breed enough of them to answer the populace demand.

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Really? Or is it that there is not enough organization among breeders who do produce quite a supply of norms to get them to the appropriate market? I have been acquiring bps for quite a few years and haven't picked up any imports. Hmm. Who exactly is that demand? Or is the demand created by the middlemen in importation?

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This has all been covered in a previous thread from a week or so ago.

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It has, and almost completely one sided. I regret now, not jumping into that one.

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Plus, importing helps regulate the Ball Python populations in Africa.

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That is complete and utter BS. Show me one legitimate scientific reference that supports this. What you will find is a bunch of 'reports' by the various african governments submitted for CITES. CITES, for those not in the know, is a gentlemans agreement between governments, primarily leaving responsibility for regulation of each country to the country's government.

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If we didn't import them for pets, they'd still be caught and sold for their skins or meat.

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I'm getting really tired of hearing this as an excuse to keep enabling importation. If we didn't take 'em, someone else would. There is nothing to support this claim either, and I, for one, have a hard time seeing export at the current numbers if a large market suddenly dried up. Maybe it would go on for a year or two at best, but ultimately not at the current trend.

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But I digress. We import to answer the demand on the Ball Python industry, as well to bring in new blood so we lessen the inbreeding mishaps, and also for all those sexy morphs that every single one of us drools over.

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You think those sexy new morphs are just slithering around in the wild over there? No, they are the result of a bunch of africans selectively breeding for things that might be of interest to the greedy gringos. As to 'new blood'. Stop for a minute and think about how many years we have been importing bps. If we closed all borders today to imports, do you honestly think our genetic pool would be inbred in no time flat? There is tons of new blood floating around, we mostly call them dinkers, and quite a few people are too lazy to go to the trouble of proving them out. What us, work? Ah let the africans do that.

I'm not trying to attack you personally, Cie, but I am sick of all the BS misinformation floating around and perpetuated by (gasp) the middlemen and importers.

Done ranting now.

~Kat

I would not waste my money on a normal WC gravid but I would consider a WC gravid morph. I don't really have a problem with bringing in WC gravids. They are either going to send them here before they lay or keep them in Africa and wait for them to lay before taking the eggs. WC snakes are just part of the hobby. As long as the wild population stays stable I don't have a huge issue with it. I think people are wasting their time with normal WC's with as cheap as nice CB breeder females can be found for now, but I am not morally against it. I only own one WC snake (sold to me as CB) and it's a pain to feed. Only takes soft furs and that was after a 14 month initial fast. Will probably never give me a clutch.

[QUOTE=janeothejungle

"You think those sexy new morphs are just slithering around in the wild over there? No, they are the result of a bunch of africans selectively breeding for things that might be of interest to the greedy gringos."

~Kat[/QUOTE]

I am not going to get wrapped up in this thread as we have already posted facts not opinions about this subject, but the above quote is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Noah is the ONLY African breeding ball morphs for the morph market. He has freedom breeder racks set up with animals we can only dream about.

The rest of the morphs that are exported are wild caught or c.h from the bush. We deal with 2-3 different importers who have been /go to Africa and meet the trappers and collectors to make their export connections. Any one who has been there or knows facts about the African market will tell you the same. Morphs are generally collected in locality areas, the mutant gene shows up in a area and the animals do not travel far like other species like boas do, so they breed among themselves, once this locality are of morphs is found that is where the collectors collect those morphs. Lavender albinos have all been collected in one small area/locality in Benin , pieds from Ghana , albino's, yellow bellies, ghost, etc are all collected in certain areas/ locality pockets in that country. They are not selectively bred by the Africans, they are bred by nature.

This is not our opinion that we are stating, but actual fact.

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

I am not going to get wrapped up in this thread as we have already posted facts not opinions about this subject, but the above quote is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Noah is the ONLY African breeding ball morphs for the morph market. He has freedom breeder racks set up with animals we can only dream about.

The rest of the morphs that are exported are wild caught or c.h from the bush. We deal with 2-3 different importers who have been /go to Africa and meet the trappers and collectors to make their export connections. Any one who has been there or knows facts about the African market will tell you the same. Morphs are generally collected in locality areas, the mutant gene shows up in a area and the animals do not travel far like other species like boas do, so they breed among themselves, once this locality are of morphs is found that is where the collectors collect those morphs. Lavender albinos have all been collected in one small area/locality in Benin , pieds from Ghana , albino's, yellow bellies, ghost, etc are all collected in certain areas/ locality pockets in that country. They are not selectively bred by the Africans, they are bred by nature.

This is not our opinion that we are stating, but actual fact.

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BS. Actual fact? You have a straight face when you write that? Cite me one piece of firsthand literature from a party not profiting from importation. You can't. The only available lit is by Gorzula and I'd be happy to shred his "scientific" opinion piece by piece if you'd like. It's not science. And there is an area of Benin where lavender albinos are just hanging out in the bush? Riiiiiiight. No again. The gene pool for that morph originates in that area, no doubt. I'll even grant you that on special occasions a baby with an odd pheno is found in the wild before being shredded by predators that would naturally pick it off. But the animals imported here have been artificially selected for our markets. The way you guys (and here I refer to those of you who profit so industriously from importation) tell it, Africa is just covered with great varying phenotypes slithering around the bush, just waiting to be discovered. A multitude of pattern and form for the taking. Have you even been to Africa yourself? You defend your business based on the profit it makes you and the stories you hear from 2nd and 3rd party sources. I've spent time over there doing fieldwork and I think you would be surprised at the origins of the industry you defend so hotly.

~Kat

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

BS. Actual fact? You have a straight face when you write that? Cite me one piece of firsthand literature from a party not profiting from importation. You can't. The only available lit is by Gorzula and I'd be happy to shred his "scientific" opinion piece by piece if you'd like. It's not science. And there is an area of Benin where lavender albinos are just hanging out in the bush? Riiiiiiight. No again. The gene pool for that morph originates in that area, no doubt. I'll even grant you that on special occasions a baby with an odd pheno is found in the wild before being shredded by predators that would naturally pick it off. But the animals imported here have been artificially selected for our markets. The way you guys (and here I refer to those of you who profit so industriously from importation) tell it, Africa is just covered with great varying phenotypes slithering around the bush, just waiting to be discovered. A multitude of pattern and form for the taking. Have you even been to Africa yourself? You defend your business based on the profit it makes you and the stories you hear from 2nd and 3rd party sources. I've spent time over there doing fieldwork and I think you would be surprised at the origins of the industry you defend so hotly.

~Kat

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I love when knowledge gets dropped! Kat, you rock!

I think it's wrong, period.

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

BS. Actual fact? You have a straight face when you write that? Cite me one piece of firsthand literature from a party not profiting from importation. You can't. The only available lit is by Gorzula and I'd be happy to shred his "scientific" opinion piece by piece if you'd like. It's not science. And there is an area of Benin where lavender albinos are just hanging out in the bush? Riiiiiiight. No again. The gene pool for that morph originates in that area, no doubt. I'll even grant you that on special occasions a baby with an odd pheno is found in the wild before being shredded by predators that would naturally pick it off. But the animals imported here have been artificially selected for our markets. The way you guys (and here I refer to those of you who profit so industriously from importation) tell it, Africa is just covered with great varying phenotypes slithering around the bush, just waiting to be discovered. A multitude of pattern and form for the taking. Have you even been to Africa yourself? You defend your business based on the profit it makes you and the stories you hear from 2nd and 3rd party sources. I've spent time over there doing fieldwork and I think you would be surprised at the origins of the industry you defend so hotly.

~Kat

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You freakin ROCK!!!! :gj::gj::gj:

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

I am not going to get wrapped up in this thread as we have already posted facts not opinions about this subject, but the above quote is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Noah is the ONLY African breeding ball morphs for the morph market. He has freedom breeder racks set up with animals we can only dream about.

The rest of the morphs that are exported are wild caught or c.h from the bush. We deal with 2-3 different importers who have been /go to Africa and meet the trappers and collectors to make their export connections. Any one who has been there or knows facts about the African market will tell you the same. Morphs are generally collected in locality areas, the mutant gene shows up in a area and the animals do not travel far like other species like boas do, so they breed among themselves, once this locality are of morphs is found that is where the collectors collect those morphs. Lavender albinos have all been collected in one small area/locality in Benin , pieds from Ghana , albino's, yellow bellies, ghost, etc are all collected in certain areas/ locality pockets in that country. They are not selectively bred by the Africans, they are bred by nature.

This is not our opinion that we are stating, but actual fact.

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Albinos found in the wild? I thought that because they lack the pigment in their skin, that either the sun will shribble them up or a predator will spot them easily, and kill them...

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Originally Posted by DBD

Albinos found in the wild? I thought that because they lack the pigment in their skin, that either the sun will shribble them up or a predator will spot them easily, and kill them...

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Please tell me you're joking.

From what I recall it is (was?) illegal to import gravid females -- does anyone know if this has changed?

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Please tell me you're joking.

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I've heard that albino snakes (yellow, white) in the wild usually aren't able to survive that long in the wild if they are albinos because they stand out soo easily to predators, they don't have a chance. Basically they have no way to camoflauge from predators, and no way to camoflauge when looking for prey because the prey will automatically see them and run away... Also, i heard that since albinos lack in skin pigmentation that the suns rays can be quite harmful to them... Im not sure if im right, but thats what i've heard... And if you think about it, it does make a lot of sense, why it would be harder and more unlikely for them to survive in the wild...

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Originally Posted by DBD

I've heard that albino snakes (yellow, white) in the wild usually aren't able to survive that long in the wild if they are albinos because they stand out soo easily to predators, they don't have a chance. Basically they have no way to camoflauge from predators, and no way to camoflauge when looking for prey because the prey will automatically see them and run away... Also, i heard that since albinos lack in skin pigmentation that the suns rays can be quite harmful to them... Im not sure if im right, but thats what i've heard... And if you think about it, it does make a lot of sense, why it would be harder and more unlikely for them to survive in the wild...

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They survive long enough to pass their genes off to the next generation. Passing your genes on is the most important part of the wild.

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Originally Posted by Clear

They survive long enough to pass their genes off to the next generation. Passing your genes on is the most important part of the wild.

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Oh

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Originally Posted by DBD

Oh

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I have a captive hatch albino girl, and the only way she got to be albino was for both her parents to carry the genes, so at least a few are out there and breeding.

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Originally Posted by DBD

I've heard that albino snakes (yellow, white) in the wild usually aren't able to survive that long in the wild if they are albinos because they stand out soo easily to predators, they don't have a chance. Basically they have no way to camoflauge from predators, and no way to camoflauge when looking for prey because the prey will automatically see them and run away... Also, i heard that since albinos lack in skin pigmentation that the suns rays can be quite harmful to them... Im not sure if im right, but thats what i've heard... And if you think about it, it does make a lot of sense, why it would be harder and more unlikely for them to survive in the wild...

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Think about the species that you are talking about. A species that spends the daylight hours in termite mounds and rodent burrows (no exposure to sun and hidden from predators). A species that ambush hunts from the entrance of those mounds and burrows. Yes, they do face special challenges, but given their natural history, not unheard of for them to survive.

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Originally Posted by DBD

I've heard that albino snakes (yellow, white) in the wild usually aren't able to survive that long in the wild if they are albinos because they stand out soo easily to predators, they don't have a chance. Basically they have no way to camoflauge from predators, and no way to camoflauge when looking for prey because the prey will automatically see them and run away... Also, i heard that since albinos lack in skin pigmentation that the suns rays can be quite harmful to them... Im not sure if im right, but thats what i've heard... And if you think about it, it does make a lot of sense, why it would be harder and more unlikely for them to survive in the wild...

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If they were not nocternal then yes that may have been true.

So how do you explain dominant genetics in regards to ball pythons?
How do you selectively breed for a cinnamon without a cinnamon?
It would not be unheard of to come across a simple recessive animal produced by 2 normal appearing parents but if what you are saying is true then breeding a pinstripe to a normal, then breeding the morph babies to other normal females would eventually produce what? Normals?
If this were true then the ball market would not be able to grow the way it does.
You claim alot of what others are saying is "BS", seems that anything that opposes your belief is "BS".
It's a wonder that you can learn anything new.
-Steven
PS Matt: Count Duckula was a vegetarian, he did not thirst for blood. It was ketchup.

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Originally Posted by stevenkeogh

So how do you explain dominant genetics in regards to ball pythons?

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Genetic Mutation, 1 gene doesn't connect the right way or doesn't connect at all, this creating a mutant Gene. DNA isn't perfect. You duplicate yourself a few million times, you're going to screw up somewhere. As hard as it may be for you to believe but at 1 time some where a Pastel popped out, lived and bred.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Genetic Mutation, 1 gene doesn't connect the right way or doesn't connect at all, this creating a mutant Gene. DNA isn't perfect. You duplicate yourself a few million times, you're going to screw up somewhere. As hard as it may be for you to believe but at 1 time some where a Pastel popped out, lived and bred.

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Sure, that may be what happened with morphs at one time but the claim was being made that morphs aren't found in the wild, they are produced.
I have seen an albino garter living in a wood pile at my uncle's house as a kid.
Morphs exist in the wild, don't kid yourself.
-Steven

I can't vote either since it does not disgust me, but I personally don't agree with WC gravid or not. CH is different to me, that animal is hatched in captivity and as far as it is concerned this is life, in captivity, it never was exposed to being wild so it will not miss it. It will have the same fears and insticts as a CB, they are both hatched and put in a cage. WC have lived part of thier life as a wild animal, learning to survive and fend for themselves, going where they want, eating when and what they want, breeding when they want, then to all of a sudden be put in a small box and fed what may not be thier first choice prey in the wild, they get bred when we make them ready not when they are naturally ready etc. I feel sorry for them. Its like if you were put in jail and given an arranged marrage while you were there and forced to have kids. If you were born in a jail and married from birth and brought up your entire life knowing you were to have kids it would be different. While I think its great to introduce new morphs from africa, they can do that with CH. If they find a new morph then get the eggs but return the mother to the wild.

Maybe taking WC gravids out of the wild is harmful. Maybe taking them is a service to the species to stop overpopulation. But until there is enough evidence to prove anything it's probably best to leave the WC gravids alone and in the wild, and let mother nature decide what happens.

Morphs happen in the wild and in captivity.

Just random genes not able to do their jobs.

I will add this...anyone who thinks that an exporter/breeder doesn't have some breeding stock of crazy mutants is crazy themself.

Look at one of the "rarest" blood python morphs the T-. They are suppose to be super rare, but it sure does seem wild that they keep popping up over and over...not to mention that an importer/farm breeder had 3 "WC" adults for sale last year....

Now if they are so rare, how in the world could someone find one or two, let alone three?

hmmmmmmmmmmm......

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Originally Posted by redpython

Morphs happen.....

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You should make that into a T-shirt. MORPHS HAPPEN, with a picture of an entire array of morphs in a pile.

I will not do business with anyone who deals with wild caught animals! I will also not do business with flippers! Flippers and people dealing with wild caught animals are crashing this market faster than anything else, and I won't support that.

Think about what the ball python business would be like if it was illegal to import ball pythons. If there were no more captive hatched or wild caught animals imported into the United States then the price would skyrocket for captive bred animals. This is simple supply and demand. Normals would sell for much higher than they do now. I had to sell normals for $20, and some less than that, last year. It really is not worth a breeder’s time to breed, feed, clean up, heat, and cage these animals over a two month period to sell them for $20.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Think about what the ball python business would be like if it was illegal to import ball pythons. If there were no more captive hatched or wild caught animals imported into the United States then the price would skyrocket for captive bred animals. This is simple supply and demand. Normals would sell for much higher than they do now.

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Yep. And that would not necessarily be a bad thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I had to sell normals for $20, and some less than that, last year. It really is not worth a breeder’s time to breed, feed, clean up, heat, and cage these animals over a two month period to sell them for $20.

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Again, yep. I had my normals (some were possible het pieds) listed for months. Priced at a whopping $20 for Normals and $25 for possible het Pieds. Only sold half of them. Had to wholesale the rest at $10 each. I think that is a clear indicator that the demand for Normal Balls are for the most part being met by American breeders and the need for imports is declining.

The only people you will hear screaming otherwise are those that make money off of imports. Again, I am not talking about a ban on imports, merely a reduction in the numbers being imported.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I will not do business with anyone who deals with wild caught animals! I will also not do business with flippers! Flippers and people dealing with wild caught animals are crashing this market faster than anything else, and I won't support that.

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Um, not sure where you are buying your snakes, but this pretty much cuts out the big guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Think about what the ball python business would be like if it was illegal to import ball pythons. If there were no more captive hatched or wild caught animals imported into the United States then the price would skyrocket for captive bred animals. This is simple supply and demand. Normals would sell for much higher than they do now. I had to sell normals for $20, and some less than that, last year. It really is not worth a breeder’s time to breed, feed, clean up, heat, and cage these animals over a two month period to sell them for $20.

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Is snake breeding your career? if so, then maybe you should invest some real bucks into some crazy morph that has a chance at a return.

And if it were illegal to import ball pythons, then there would be NONE in captivity, it's a double edged sword.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shrap

Again, yep. I had my normals (some were possible het pieds) listed for months. Priced at a whopping $20 for Normals and $25 for possible het Pieds. Only sold half of them. Had to wholesale the rest at $10 each. I think that is a clear indicator that the demand for Normal Balls are for the most part being met by American breeders and the need for imports is declining.

The only people you will hear screaming otherwise are those that make money off of imports. Again, I am not talking about a ban on imports, merely a reduction in the numbers being imported.

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you had to wholesale them for 10$ because thats what the price is. the wholesale on CH is alot less. im guessing you sold these to a flipper? where were you selling them that you only sold half?


all of you anti gravid/import ppl better stop shopping at all the pet stores! also you might wanna dodge narbc shows totally since most of the ppl that run it does alot of imports. then all big breeders also buy these. then i guess the flippers(most of the ones i know have pretty big collections of their own animals)

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Originally Posted by nixer

you had to wholesale them for 10$ because thats what the price is. the wholesale on CH is alot less. im guessing you sold these to a flipper? where were you selling them that you only sold half?

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I am very aware of CH prices. CH lots of 100 males would have cost me $80 shipped last year. A whopping $2 less than my CB. Not what I would call "alot less".

Advertised on Fauna, KS, locally and via my site. That is where I was selling them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nixer

all of you anti gravid/import ppl better stop shopping at all the pet stores! also you might wanna dodge narbc shows totally since most of the ppl that run it does alot of imports. then all big breeders also buy these. then i guess the flippers(most of the ones i know have pretty big collections of their own animals)

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Again, I am not anti imports. I am simply saying there are plenty of people breeding Balls in the US now that the amount of Balls getting imported could easily be cut in half and it only be a good thing for the Ball market as a whole. Seriously, would cutting the number down to roughly 50,000 being imported a year be a bad thing for the Ball market?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nixer

also you might wanna dodge narbc shows totally since most of the ppl that run it does alot of imports. then all big breeders also buy these. then i guess the flippers(most of the ones i know have pretty big collections of their own animals)

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Brian has strict rules about that. Only CBB animals are allowed in his show. Though I'm sure some people could lie and say that their WC or CH snake is CBB.