BAD news Georgia... :( ASF's BANNED

Sorry to inform you but LIVE African Soft Furred Rats have been banned in the state of Georgia. :rolleye2:

As many of you know Charles Cardell and myself will have a table at the Repticon show outside of Atlanta this upcoming weekend. We were planning on having over 350 live ASF's to choose from, but yesterday I got the following email:


Dear Mr. Cavanaugh,

I noticed that you were bringing ASF rats to Repticon in Atlanta this coming weekend. African Soft Furred Rats cannot be possessed or imported into Georgia without a license. Please do not bring any live ASF to Georgia.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Sincerely,



Todd N. Nims
Wildlife Biologist - Special Permit Unit
Georgia Wildlife Resources Division
2065 US Hwy 278 SE
Social Circle, GA 30025


We were hoping that this email just meant that you have to have a dealers license to sell them (Charles has a dealers license)... But after a long phone conversation with Todd Nims, we now know for a fact that it is illegal to have live ASF's in the state of Georgia period... as pets, or as feeders. He said African Soft Furred rats are a species they are just now cracking down on. I am sorry folks.

We still plan to attend the show, but will only have frozen available as the laws dictate. Todd Nims says selling / possessing frozen ASF's is fine. I know this is not the for sale section, so please see our post in the for sale section later today for updated frozen pricing.

Feel free to PM me with any questions you have that you don't want to ask on a public thread.

Regretfully,

Mike Cavanaugh

Do they have a reason for the ban?

Did they mention why it is banned? I mean, I understand if they want to ban imports from Africa or something... but I don't see a reason why captive born and bred rats would be a problem...

That's a Bummer man!


But I have heard about this! Them ASF's are crazy! You see, they are worried a pair will escape from someone, breed, and create a small army which will take over the state of Georgia... :disbelief ...tragic.

When did this happen!?

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Originally Posted by aaronp

when did this happen!?

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1982

just perfect. :(

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Originally Posted by Clear

Do they have a reason for the ban?

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probably injurious wildlife! Who knows.

were asf's banned specifically, or is it more generic: i.e. banning all non-native rodentia(with possible exclusions for guinea pigs etc)

GA has some really silly laws on animals. A few years back my sister-in-law was trying to find a home for an unwanted sugar glider so I was looking into care and learned they were not legal here. I called a few places to see if there were any exceptions to this and asked why exactly they were not legal to keep. I was told (and this is where it gets funny) that sugar gliders were illegal to keep because there was a law stating no marsupials could be kept and that that law originated during the Depression to keep people from raising opposum as a food source... I guess the "no native animals" law was not enough to stop people from eating opposum so they had to add the "no marsupials" law as well. How stupid is that?

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Originally Posted by asplundii

GA has some really silly laws on animals. A few years back my sister-in-law was trying to find a home for an unwanted sugar glider so I was looking into care and learned they were not legal here. I called a few places to see if there were any exceptions to this and asked why exactly they were not legal to keep. I was told (and this is where it gets funny) that sugar gliders were illegal to keep because there was a law stating no marsupials could be kept and that that law originated during the Depression to keep people from raising opposum as a food source... I guess the "no native animals" law was not enough to stop people from eating opposum so they had to add the "no marsupials" law as well. How stupid is that?

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But Laws can change, in March '08 Sugar Gliders became legal in Georgia.

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Originally Posted by mxrider42

1982

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Well...That hasn't stopped anyone lol.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

But Laws can change, in March '08 Sugar Gliders became legal in Georgia.

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Yes, partially they did. But it still has to be from a USDA certified breeder. But the point I was making was that the reason for the law was asinine to begin with :D Not to mention seriously out of date...

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Yes, partially they did. But it still has to be from a USDA certified breeder. But the point I was making was that the reason for the law was asinine to begin with :D Not to mention seriously out of date...

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actually im pretty sure you must be usda certified for sugar gliders nation wide.
just like those little import oppossum.

they also have things set in place for rodents and rabbits

ASF's are considered to be more aggressive than the native species... and with the way rodents breed - well, you can see why they have the law. they are injurious wildlife... just like cane toads and rabbits seemed harmless in australia or africanized honey bees in the US.

that said, for all you home-bodies, i doubt the dept of agriculture is going to bust your door down and steal your ASF's...

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

were asf's banned specifically, or is it more generic: i.e. banning all non-native rodentia(with possible exclusions for guinea pigs etc)

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When the law was written they came up with a specific list of animals that were considered "normally domesticated" in the state, therefore were legal for sale in the pet trade. ASF's were non-existant in the state when the law was written, therefore they are excluded and considered as a regulated animal requiring a special wildlife permit from the state. And that quote about sums it up, I personally spoke with Mr. Nims this morning and the list contains the very basic pet store type rodents (Some Hamsters, Gerbils, Guinea pigs, Norway Rats, Domestic Mice, etc...). Perhaps the laws can be updated soon and they will be included in the legal to own list, but I would not hold my breath on that.

wow thats realy stupid:(

Hedge hogs use to be illegal in Cali untill a 15 y/o girl wanted one and had the ban lifted on them, it only took 3 years to have the ban removed!

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Originally Posted by Clear

Do they have a reason for the ban?

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well, Jerhart answerd it in a nutshell...

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Them ASF's are crazy! You see, they are worried a pair will escape from someone, breed, and create a small army which will take over the state of Georgia... :disbelief ...tragic.

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The fear is that they will get out, reproduce, arm themselves, and take over the state of Georgia and hold all of the states people hostage.

If you do a simple web search you will see that Georgia's "exotic pet" rules are on average 10 times longer then every other state. Because of this, I am not surprised.

For any of you frozen / thawed feeders out there, rest assured.... Todd Nims direct quote to me was "four legs up in the air dead are ok with the state of Georgia"

Mike

I can see the reasoning behind the ban on ASF's. If they did "get out" and establish themselves they could potentially become another nuisance and problem with the local environment.

You have to remember overpopulated rodents can cause lots of damage to crops, historically carry diseases and plagues, are can become a nuisance just about everywhere in cities and on farms alike.

I bet if they did'nt have the word African in their name they would be ok people think of desease & bad stuff in african mammals.they should call them fat fancy mice!!

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Originally Posted by snakelady

I can see the reasoning behind the ban on ASF's. If they did "get out" and establish themselves they could potentially become another nuisance and problem with the local environment.

You have to remember overpopulated rodents can cause lots of damage to crops, historically carry diseases and plagues, are can become a nuisance just about everywhere in cities and on farms alike.

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I disagree.

Normal Rats and mice are not illegal in Georgia. IMHO, normal rats and mice pose just as much of a threat as ASF's. They also die from the same poisons.

Keep in mind, the same argument you are supporting is being used to try to ban lots of things... including ball pythons.

Mike

"Normal" Rats aren't even normal rats, they're from the Netherlands...

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that said, for all you home-bodies, i doubt the dept of agriculture is going to bust your door down and steal your ASF's...

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Don't be so sure about that. Some of the plant eating species of aquatic snails (those large mystery or apple snails) are banned from interstate shipment/travel. The USDA HAS been knocking on peoples' doors and taking them. These are SNAILS, and haven't been proven to be able to survive Pennsylvania winters, and certainly haven't been proven as a threat to our corn industry (lol). But, yes, they will come knocking on your door and confiscate/kill them. And, just to be clear, it isn't just Pennsylvania officers who are cracking down, people all over the US are getting snails taken from them. These are hobby breeders, some who were just keeping them as pets.

unfortunately, mine will become the next feeders and then I hope it warms up enough to raise rats. Cause that's for outside!! I was really enjoying my babies too.

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Originally Posted by grammie

unfortunately, mine will become the next feeders and then I hope it warms up enough to raise rats. Cause that's for outside!! I was really enjoying my babies too.

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What will you do with your breeders next winter though? They live 2 years on average. And the high heat that we have here in GA will actually not help your production - they don't produce well when they are hot.

Well that really BITES! :(

well i found out that they referedto as fancy mice in delaware but no ifo on a banned on asf .. either way I not gettign rid of my food source for the snakes.:taz:

i keeop my asf in large glass tanks. so after the finish chewing up the metal water holder they have ot chew though the glass to get free. PLus I have an breeder premit for snakes 0 but it says extoic animal so I should be safe since i got it ..

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Originally Posted by rabernet

What will you do with your breeders next winter though? They live 2 years on average. And the high heat that we have here in GA will actually not help your production - they don't produce well when they are hot.

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youd have to keep them around 70 degrees tops

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Originally Posted by grammie

unfortunately, mine will become the next feeders and then I hope it warms up enough to raise rats. Cause that's for outside!! I was really enjoying my babies too.

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Raising rats outside :confused:

Do you really mean outside or in another building?

Outside means they will be in the heat (not produce or die) - Exposed to the element - Being in contact with parasites - Exposed to diseases from wild rats - etc

Well every one from GA can come move to SD:) All the exotic animal law we have is that you can not import any wild preditory animal (the big cats, wild dogs, hyenas, bears, or members of the mustelidae family...badgers, skunks, otters/ferrets are ok) or tapirs and rhinos
Most exotic animals would not suvive for long up here, the winters are too cold.

no Deborah, outside means in another building. Just not in the house. But I really am more interested in how to stop this before it gets too far gone.

Well I got an email for this guy "Todd N. Nims". He said the same crap to me.

ASF rats are now going to be know simply as Softed Furred Rats. LOL!!!

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

Don't be so sure about that. Some of the plant eating species of aquatic snails (those large mystery or apple snails) are banned from interstate shipment/travel. The USDA HAS been knocking on peoples' doors and taking them. These are SNAILS, and haven't been proven to be able to survive Pennsylvania winters, and certainly haven't been proven as a threat to our corn industry (lol). But, yes, they will come knocking on your door and confiscate/kill them. And, just to be clear, it isn't just Pennsylvania officers who are cracking down, people all over the US are getting snails taken from them. These are hobby breeders, some who were just keeping them as pets.

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Little known factoid, agents of said organization can only enter the rooms in the house that you give them permission to enter. So if your "questionable" pets are in, say a back room and you do not give them permission to enter that room then they can not and therefore can not confiscate the animal(s).

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I disagree.

Normal Rats and mice are not illegal in Georgia. IMHO, normal rats and mice pose just as much of a threat as ASF's. They also die from the same poisons.

Keep in mind, the same argument you are supporting is being used to try to ban lots of things... including ball pythons.

Mike

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Little known factoid, agents of said organization can only enter the rooms in the house that you give them permission to enter. So if your "questionable" pets are in, say a back room and you do not give them permission to enter that room then they can not and therefore can not confiscate the animal(s).

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Ah, but if you're selling restricted animals, they can obtain search warrants.

ASF's are an incredible pest in Africa, more so than norway rats and mice. Georgia would be prime habitat for them.

Do I agree they should ban them right away? No, I think this was a knee jerk reaction, but I do see the reason why. However I think this could have been an open floor discussion before they closed the door on them.

They are also illegal, like many other animals (ferrets, gerbils), in Cali but people still have them.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

"Normal" Rats aren't even normal rats, they're from the Netherlands...

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Sorry, but if you think "norwegian" means their dutch (from the netherlands) you are wrong, they are from norway (a scandinavian country) by their name (but I think this is just a scientific name). This is like saying a Texas rattle snake would be coming from Michigan.
Sorry again, but I am european and love to play the teacher...:D
And to the topic, sometimes the lawmakers go crazy, in my city a ball python is considered a dangerous species. I guess the officials here are of the size of a hamster, otherwise I can not explain this....:rolleye2:

on a side note its also illegal to go over the posted speed limit in Ga...but people do it ...... ??? just kidding

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Do I agree they should ban them right away? No, I think this was a knee jerk reaction, but I do see the reason why. However I think this could have been an open floor discussion before they closed the door on them.

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On this I think their is a slight misunderstanding ..... The ASFs were never included in the "Allowed Animals" list that is in the Ga State Regulations regarding rodents, therefore have always been ristricted in the state.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

"Normal" Rats aren't even normal rats, they're from the Netherlands...

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Rats originated from China/Mongolia.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

They are also illegal like many other animals (ferrets, gerbils) in Cali but people still have them.

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See what I don't get is that Gerbils are legal in GA...how are they that much more different from ASFs.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

See what I don't get is that Gerbils are legal in GA...how are they that much more different from ASFs.

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ASF's have the word "African" in their name. That is the difference.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

See what I don't get is that Gerbils are legal in GA...how are they that much more different from ASFs.

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ASF's are a different genus and species and are also not a native species to Georgia. Gerbils being from very arid environments.

ASF's are also a natural vector for a zoonotic disease called Lassa Fever and the Plague. They are a plague unto themselves during flooding season and cause millions of damage to any crop in sub sahara Africa.

Gerbils can cary plague too. And arenaviruses for that matter. All flea bearing animal (for the prior) and rodents (for the latter) can. So those are sort of a weak arguments for banning them.

Plus, plague is in the US in a number of other, much closer to home animals (prairie dogs, ground squirrels, tree squirrels, skinks, racoons, cats...) so if you are going to worry about catching it you have sources close to home to worry about

And none of the serious human disease causing arenaviruses are in the US so it is not like CBB ones are going to suddenly introduce them in the wild here... The implication that CBB ASF would spread Lassa is kind of like saying a CBB lab monkey could spread Ebola. Ridiculous

Hi all,

I thought I would post something to clear up any confusion.

ASF rats were not banned recently. The law that prohibited these and other exotic rodents from being held in Georgia without a license went into effect sometime in the early 1980's.

We have not just decided to 'crack down' on these rats either. Simply, I was not aware that they were being sold in Georgia. I was planning to go to Repticon this weekend and did a web search to find the hours. That web search also picked up Mr. Cavanaugh's posting on another forum. That posting stated he was bringing these rats up to Repticon from Florida. Rather than see Mr. Cavanaugh be embarrassed or waste his time bringing live animals to Georgia that he could not sell, I thought it the gentlemanly thing to do to give him a heads up before he got here.

He then asked me to speak with Mr. Cardell. After speaking with Mr. Cardell by phone I thought there might be more people in Georgia with these rats so I did another web search and found two other individuals. I called one and had a pleasant conversation and emailed the other (based on his responses here I think the conversation would not have been pleasant).

My intent was not to make some knee-jerk decision. My intent was to let an out of state dealer know that it would not be lawful for him to bring a prohibited animal to a show in Georgia that would have DNR law enforcement in attendance.

The law governing these animals is the Wild Animals Law, Title 27, Chapter 5 of the Official Code of Georgia. The legislature states in 27-5-1 why they thought this law important.

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§ 27-5-1. Legislative intent and findings
The General Assembly finds and declares that it is in the public interest to ensure the public health, safety, and welfare by strictly regulating in this state the importation, transportation, sale, transfer, and possession of those wild animals which pose a possibility of:

(1) Harmful competition for wildlife;
(2) The introduction of a disease or pest harmful to wildlife;
(3) Problems of enforcing laws and regulations relative to wildlife;
(4) Threatening wildlife or other natural resources; or
(5) Endangering the physical safety of human beings.

The importation, transportation, sale, transfer, and possession of wild animals are privileges not to be granted unless it can be clearly demonstrated that such actions can be accomplished in a manner that does not pose unnecessary risk to Georgia's wildlife and other natural resources or to the citizens of and visitors to this state. For these reasons, the General Assembly further finds and declares that only certain wild animals may be held for scientific or educational purposes, for public exhibition, or as pets and may only be lawfully held when the requirements of this chapter are met. The General Assembly further finds and declares that any wild animal for which a license or permit, or both, is required under the provisions of this chapter and for which no such license or permit, or both, has been obtained is a nuisance and is contraband and is subject to seizure by any peace officer authorized to enforce this chapter.

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There is a wild animal license available to Georgia residents that allows them to possess these rats lawfully in Georgia. This license permits the out-of-state sale of live rats. For more information please see our webpage:

Permits and other services

If you have any questions please feel free to call or email.

Todd N. Nims
Wildlife Biologist - Special Permit Unit
Georgia Wildlife Resources Division
2065 US Hwy 278 SE
Social Circle, GA 30025
(770) 761-3044
(706) 557-3060 (fax)
todd.nims@dnr.state.ga.us

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Originally Posted by asplundii

GA has some really silly laws on animals. A few years back my sister-in-law was trying to find a home for an unwanted sugar glider so I was looking into care and learned they were not legal here. I called a few places to see if there were any exceptions to this and asked why exactly they were not legal to keep. I was told (and this is where it gets funny) that sugar gliders were illegal to keep because there was a law stating no marsupials could be kept and that that law originated during the Depression to keep people from raising opposum as a food source... I guess the "no native animals" law was not enough to stop people from eating opposum so they had to add the "no marsupials" law as well. How stupid is that?

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I am not sure who told you this but their information is not even remotely accurate. The laws dealing with native opossums are in a completely different chapter from the laws dealing with exotic marsupials.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Gerbils can cary plague too. And arenaviruses for that matter. All flea bearing animal (for the prior) and rodents (for the latter) can. So those are sort of a weak arguments for banning them.

Plus, plague is in the US in a number of other, much closer to home animals (prairie dogs, ground squirrels, tree squirrels, skinks, racoons, cats...) so if you are going to worry about catching it you have sources close to home to worry about

And none of the serious human disease causing arenaviruses are in the US so it is not like CBB ones are going to suddenly introduce them in the wild here... The implication that CBB ASF would spread Lassa is kind of like saying a CBB lab monkey could spread Ebola. Ridiculous

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The ASF are (in 1975) speculated as being the only other natural vectors for the for the arenavirus for Lassa Fever; they also rarely show clinical signs... But to say that an ASF would never come into contact with the excrement's of the most populace rodent in Africa is a little under rated. How many ball pythons are imported annually? And how many keepers have ASF's?

I would speculate the chance is definitely there for reinfection in captive populations. Although the clinical signs in humans from handling the infected imported objects (boxes, bags etc) would show long before the spread of the disease in captive populations is noticed.

Although slim as it may be, I'm just keeping it out there. :P


Your correct that the parasites on them can carry the plague, I'm just stating why they were banned from importation in the 80's. Plague was listed as the other reason because of the epidemics that still happen in Africa.

http://www.itg.be/itg/DistanceLearni...avirusesp4.htm
http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/3/627
http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/full/77/1/169



The other stipulation for banning of ASF is the main reason people breed them in captivity. They have a high average for pups in a litter, which is (dont remember the exact numbers off the top of my head) higher by quite a bit than other rodent species. They have almost 24 teats per female, and generally have a huge population explosion during the flood/ crop season, and Georgia frankly has gorgeous weather and geography, these animals would thrive.

I think the fear of population explosions and crop damage is the main reasoning to not allow the asf's in captivity in many southern or western states. People are scared and don't want to deal with yet another rodent pest, especially one that reproduces so quickly and with such little territorial instinct, that it would rather live side by side other rodent species, more so than other rodent species will tolerate.


http://www.jstor.org/pss/2559240

(I quoted this bit because the page is only cached for me, link doesnt work properly)
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

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The multunammate rat, Praomys (Mastomys) natalensis

This species is economically the most important rodent pest in Africa, and a true indigenous commensal (Fiedler 1988). In many areas it may be replaced by the much larger R. rattus.

The fur is soft, brownish on the back and greyish underneath. The head+body length is up to 150 mm, and the fully grown adult weight is 50-100 g. The tail, which is uniformly dark, is about the same length as the head+body.

Most distinctively, the female has up to 24 nipples on her belly (other rat species rarely have more than 10) and the reproductive potential is high, particularly since this species lives in large social groups. Consequently, very large population explosions occur from time to time, causing huge losses.

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Thanks Todd, for presenting that in a very nice manner. I checked into the license, but can't see paying the fee for the one animal on the list I would keep. I'll just move to rats. :(

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Originally Posted by Todd Nims

I called one and had a pleasant conversation and emailed the other (based on his responses here I think the conversation would not have been pleasant).

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Mr. Nims,

I wasn't trying to sound like a butt. I was just making kind of a "HAHA" matter out of it. I'm not saying this is a joking matter by any means.

I killed off most of my ASF a long time ago. The ads you found were a few months old. I have now removed them. I may have missed some but I no longer sell ASF Rats.

I'm a simple person and a nice guy (ask anyone that knows me). Feel free you call me up anytime. It would be pleasant. Not to say I agree with you or most of the laws on the books.