Force Feeding

I thought this would be an interesting topic to post to get everybodys feedback and knowledge of force feeding. I am no pro myself but I have successfully force feed 4-5 bps in the past as a last resort, the largest of them about 450grams. I was wondering though how everybdy goes about force feeding when they absolutely have to, obviously as a last resort. I had a heck of a time forcing my 450bp in the past I cannot imagine having to force feed a 1500gram animal. Anyways whats everybodys take on force feeding? How do you go about it? What do you use? What measures do you take to make sure there is no harm done to the animal?

I've been keeping ball pythons for over 28 years ... thousands of animals (mostly in the last decade) ... I've never had to force feed a single snake.

Hope this helps.

-adam

I am curious to see what you call last resort?

How long did the animals fast for? How much body weight did they lose? What attempt were made before force feeding?

The animal you are considering force feeding already is not a good candidate for force feeding she can go months (and I don't mean just a couple) without eating and do just fine.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I am curious to see what you call last resort?

How long did the animals fast for? How much body weight did they lose? What attempt were made before force feeding?

The animal you are considering force feeding already is not a good candidate for force feeding she can go months (and I don't mean just a couple) without eating and do just fine.

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lol I knew this would happen, Im sorry but if you think so or not I know when an animal is on its last leg. Last resort would be massive weight loss limited movement, and activity in general, anyways this was just for peoples opinions and input not for you to question my ball python knowledge thanks but no thanks

I've had to do it, but only with a tiny baby who otherwise was likely to be in trouble - and that was only after i tried every trick in the book, and assist feeding stopped working. After about a year of this with only frequent enough forced meals to keep him healthy (not gaining weight at all), he took a mouse on his own and is a reliable eater today.

It was pretty much the most stressful thing I've ever had to do as a keeper, and I hope to god i never have to do it again. I've seen some larger snakes that look like they could stand to have a meal or two stuffed down their throats, but i wouldn't want to have to wrassle them for it, and i'd be very fearful of causing injuries. :(

same here it was very scary for me force feeding them, worried to stress them severly or cause injury, but I can proudly say that every snake I have ever force feed now eats great every week for me missing a meal very far between. I could not imagine having to force feed a large snake, I would defintely head to the vet for assistance

I've never had to force feed any of my snakes. -Shrugs.- I don't know what I'd do if I had to.

So how did a 450 gram ball go off feed and end up being so bad it needed force feeding?

You've force fed ball pythons and you don't even know what kind of substrates work besides newspaper? ....How are your 75 ASFs doing?

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Originally Posted by MDB

same here it was very scary for me force feeding them, worried to stress them severly or cause injury, but I can proudly say that every snake I have ever force feed now eats great every week for me missing a meal very far between. I could not imagine having to force feed a large snake, I would defintely head to the vet for assistance

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If a 1500 gram snake is going off feed, and losing drastic body weight or tone then you need to take it to a vet, it likely has other issues than just not eating. BPs will go off feed occasionally...perfectly normal. However, they will not lose drastic amounts of weight unless there is another issue. Perhaps they're off feed because of a husbandry issue.

I agree with Deborah. No reason an animal that size has to be force fed if it's healthy otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

You've force fed ball pythons and you don't even know what kind of substrates work besides newspaper? ....How are your 75 ASFs doing?

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Lmao sorry bud but just because I havent familiarized myself with substrates other than newspaper and papertowels, does not mean that I do not know how to care for my bps. So seriously quit hating and bashing my threads. All I asked is peoples opinions on force feeding, not if you think that I am a qualified ball python/reptile owner. Anyways brown noser since you like me so much, maybe you should familiarize yourself with my post a little bit more and realize since than that I realized 75 asf rats were way to much. And decided to go with only a couple trios. But anyways thanks for asking smith:gj: lol

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Originally Posted by jknudson

If a 1500 gram snake is going off feed, and losing drastic body weight or tone then you need to take it to a vet, it likely has other issues than just not eating. BPs will go off feed occasionally...perfectly normal. However, they will not lose drastic amounts of weight unless there is another issue. Perhaps they're off feed because of a husbandry issue.

I agree with Deborah. No reason an animal that size has to be force fed if it's healthy otherwise.

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sorry maybe you should do a little bit more research into my post, I am not considering force feeding my wild caught or any other of my animals as of now. All I asked was members opinions on force feeding. Jumping to conclusions, makes people look like idiots. So thanks for your concern buddy:D

I am thankful that I have not ever had to force feed a snake as I think I would be trembling to the point of not being able to get the prey into the mouth of the snake!!

I have a little hypo girl who was refusing to eat for months and months (she was a baby) and started losing weight rapidly and then took a huge drop in weight. Thankfully, all I needed to do was to offer her live mice (and not f/t rats) and she's been a happy eater ever since; in fact, she's up to 550 grams!! Slow and steady with that little snake!! She's a cutie though!!

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Originally Posted by starmom

I am thankful that I have not ever had to force feed a snake as I think I would be trembling to the point of not being able to get the prey into the mouth of the snake!!

I have a little hypo girl who was refusing to eat for months and months (she was a baby) and started losing weight rapidly and then took a huge drop in weight. Thankfully, all I needed to do was to offer her live mice (and not f/t rats) and she's been a happy eater ever since; in fact, she's up to 550 grams!! Slow and steady with that little snake!! She's a cutie though!!

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congrats im glad to hear it

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Originally Posted by MDB

sorry maybe you should do a little bit more research into my post, I am not considering force feeding my wild caught or any other of my animals as of now. All I asked was members opinions on force feeding. Jumping to conclusions, makes people look like idiots. So thanks for your concern buddy:D

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Anyways whats everybodys take on force feeding?

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And my OPINION is that a healthy 1500 gram snake with proper husbandry should not need to be force fed. Ball pythons sometimes go off feed...it happens. However, there are other reasons they will go off feed, but for those they should see a vet. There is NO reason to force feed a healthy snake.

I'm not jumping to conclusions, just voicing my opinion like you asked in the OP.

And, I'm definitely not your buddy... Apparently you need to take it easy in the ring, those beatings aren't doing you any good. ;)

lmao obviously you arent watching the right videos, besides you still havent gotten your facts right because I was using a 1500gram snake as an example situation. Your opinion that you voiced is the obvious. Tough guy;)
ps please dont be an internet tough guy.

did I start a thread on a touchy subject or what??? lmao:rofl:

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Originally Posted by MDB

did I start a thread on a touchy subject or what??? lmao:rofl:

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No - your attitude and response to those answering your question is what is "touchy". I'd suggest taking it down a notch or two.

You say no one knows your experience, and perhaps that's true, so the only thing that people can "judge" you on are the posts on subjects that you have shared with us so far, and they demonstrate very little experience with ball pythons in general.

As to your original question - I've never had to force feed, even with an animal that fasted for almost a year.

Just a note on your WC - the Barkers also note in their book that WC's can take as long as a year and a half to ever take their first meal - they can be that traumatized from being ripped out of the only life they've ever known to being brought into captivity and having a predator (you) hovering over them, even in a very limited way (changing water for example) and hearing strange noises and having a prey type that they've never seen in their life offered to them, etc.

I've never had a situation that I felt that force feeding would be the proper course of action. Force feeding is EXTREMELY stressful, and I personally feel that unless the snake is GOING to die without it, it should NEVER be done.

I have had to assist more than a handful of hatchlings, but even my WORST feeders have never gotten to the point where I felt force feeding was a justifiable option.

For example, I currently have a POS. DH Lavender Albino Clown that turned out to be the WORST feeder I had ever had. He started out not wanting to take ANYTHING, having to be assisted for pretty much every meal (which happens from time to time). After a while, he would not even take food with assistance. He would do whatever he could to NOT eat. He started losing weight and actually got close to the point when I was starting to worry that he may not make it without force feeding... But, at the same time, i felt that the stress from force feeding may be too much for his already weakened systems to handle, so I decided that the best thing to do would be let relax for a few weeks, adding vitamins to his water and doing my best to make sure he was as comfortable as possible. After about 3 weeks, I offered him food again, and he took it on his own. Since then he's been eating like a champ and has gained almost 400grams and will most likely actually breed next season (provided I decide to actually try to prove him out).

Through that, I learned that the odds of a snake that HAS eaten starving itself to death is fairly slim. (Unless there is something horribly wrong with the husbandry or the snake is extremely ill). I hope I never do have to deal with a situation that REQUIRES force feeding, but at the same time, I really do not expect to.

I usually do not enter threads that seem to have veered off the track a bit, but I thought I would throw my opinion in the mix as well. Like Adam, I have never force fed anything in the 6 years we have been doing this. With that said, I have had to assist feed plenty of hatchlings to get them started. Fortunately I have never had to force feed one to keep it alive. In my opinion you should never have to force feed an animal over say 120 grams. If a Ball Python is 400 grams, for instance, it has apparently eaten before and knows how to eat. It will eat again when it is ready (assuming there are no husbandry issues). I believe that someone else mentioned somewhere in the thread that Balls can go long periods without eating. I had a WC girl go 55 weeks before she started eating (I don't know how long she had not eaten before I got her). I treated her for internal parasites when she came in, set her up properly and commenced to attempting all types of food item in many different fashions until she decided it was time. Now she is a great breeder for us.

My .02.

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Originally Posted by MDB

her health isnt declining, no major loss of weight so I am gonna give her a couple more months and see how it goes if she gets to the point where I feel her well being is in jeopardy I will happily give her up to a member with the ability to save her life and care for her, but must have references.

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My remark was that this animal that you already thinking about force-feeding, could go well over a year without eating and do just fine (not a couple of months), most people do not think about force feeding a year in advance they think about it when it is time to do so.

Over the years I have seen many people jumping to force feeding even though it was not necessary which is why I was asking questions (which I believe I am allowed to, am I not) asking question is in no way jumping to conclusion is it attacking someone this however is

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Originally Posted by MDB

All I asked was members opinions on force feeding. Jumping to conclusions, makes people look like idiots. So thanks for your concern buddy:D

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Hopefully this is not a time when you will over react and force-feed an animal that does not need to (just like when you over reacted and decided to sell your entire collection because your spider was missing for a few hours and you all of the sudden lost interest in breeding)

Now back to your regular programming :gj:

I have to agree with Deb and Robin. I think that this entire thread was handled poorly by you MBD. You asked for an opinion, and people were more-than-willing to offer it. You also threw yourself out there on the alter of "possible" sacrifice. That happens. Just understand, that for every question asked, while we all appreciate the questions, we are all VERY passionate about these animals. I think it's very important to re-read all of these posts and see that even the "meanest" responses are more snake-oriented in their concern. Remember that.

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Originally Posted by MDB

I thought this would be an interesting topic to post to get everybodys feedback and knowledge of force feeding. I am no pro myself but I have successfully force feed 4-5 bps in the past as a last resort, the largest of them about 450grams. I was wondering though how everybdy goes about force feeding when they absolutely have to, obviously as a last resort. I had a heck of a time forcing my 450bp in the past I cannot imagine having to force feed a 1500gram animal. Anyways whats everybodys take on force feeding? How do you go about it? What do you use? What measures do you take to make sure there is no harm done to the animal?

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THe highlighted sections are the reason people are answering the way they are. IMHO The only time a ball python should be assisted with feeding is when it is a hatchling, and you have followed all of these steps to a T... http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...ingseating.htm

That is the ONLY time. And even at that time, you assist feed, not force feed.

Otherwise, if it stops eating, it is not because it has forgotten how to. The only rasons it would stop eating are:
1.) Something is wrong with the husbandry
2.) you are feeding the wrong size / type of feeder
3.) It just isn't hungry, or seasonal reasons / many go off feed because the want to and because they can.
4.) the animal is sick and needs to go to the vet
5.) WC animal that is pissed, and you should not be dealing with these in the first place.

Hope this helps.

I will admit I have force fed one animal. It was a hatchling that I tried every trick in the book, called bigger breeders and tried new tricks, unsuccesfully assist fed for several months. After the animal had lost from 68g down to 42g and was extremely weak we decided to force feed. First attempt was very stressful for all of us but we got it down. 2 weeks later I left a pink in with her overnight with no sucess. We force fed one week later. 2 weeks later I left a pink in with her overnight and it was gone the next morning. She hasn't missed a meal since then. I feel without force feeding she would have died, she now weighs 158g, about half the size as her siblings but she is alive and doing well.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

You've force fed ball pythons and you don't even know what kind of substrates work besides newspaper? ....How are your 75 ASFs doing?

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perhaps it was a little late when I posted this and sarcasm wasn't the best way to go about my point....

But I think the first thing I ever learned about balls was the type of substrate they should be on, the temperatures, and the humidity levels. Force feeding a snake is the last thing I ever wanted to learn to do (and still don't know how to do and probably never will), and seems as if you just thought one day "hey, he hasn't eaten in a while, I should force this mouse down."

And to be honest, it just doesn't look good to your credibility when you make a thread with a newbie substrate question (and you've been here long enough to realize they get asked 2-3 times a day, just look) and then an hour later you make a thread about force feeding.

I personally don't believe in force feeding. Not every snake is meant to survive and I don't want to pollute my gene pool with weak feeders. As has already been pointed out, most healthy snakes will eat, so there is often more going on.

I should clarify that if a snake is sick and that's why its being force fed and that once it gets better it will eat, I'm ok with that. I won't force feed a snake that is other wise 100% healthy and refuses to eat.

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

I personally don't believe in force feeding. Not every snake is meant to survive and I don't want to pollute my gene pool with weak feeders. As has already been pointed out, most healthy snakes will eat, so there is often more going on.

I should clarify that if a snake is sick and that's why its being force fed and that once it gets better it will eat, I'm ok with that. I won't force feed a snake that is other wise 100% healthy and refuses to eat.

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I totally understand your point. I believe in giving every animal an equal opportunity. This animal was QT while the force feeding was going on. She is doing fine now and I think is ready to rejoin the collection. She may never get big enough to breed and may end up just being a "pet", but she will be treated the same as the most expensive snake in my collection. BTW she is just a normal.

Just to put my 2 cents in....

My experience has been that a poor starter doesn't always mean a poor feeder. Just as some human beings have trouble grasping the concept of walking or talking as early as others doesn't mean that they won't be marathon runners or president as adults. (I hope that analogy makes sense)

Assist feeding is sometimes necessary for hatchling ball pythons to grasp the concept of feeding. After they get that concept down my experience has been they usually become very good feeders.

As for adult ball pythons I have never had to assist feed. Usually all it takes is patience and understanding of that animals feeding responses that get it to eat. If it came down to a life or death scenario and I had tried everything to get that animal to feed on it's own I would attempt assist feeding...but only after the other options had been exhausted.

Hope that was helpful :)

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

I personally don't believe in force feeding. Not every snake is meant to survive and I don't want to pollute my gene pool with weak feeders. As has already been pointed out, most healthy snakes will eat, so there is often more going on.

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This is an interesting point and I tend to agree with it... If an animal won't eat and none of the reasons pointed out above (husbandry, ill health etc) are to blame then what is the point in force feeding it? That snake may go on to be a good feeder but may pass bad feeder genes to it's progeny.. in the wild I guess all bad feeders would be taken out of the gene pool simply by their none feeding - just my 2p worth....

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Originally Posted by zail

... That snake may go on to be a good feeder but may pass bad feeder genes to it's progeny..

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Is this genetic??? :confuzd:

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Originally Posted by starmom

Is this genetic??? :confuzd:

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Don't know - merely conjecture on my part - was just thinking that if there were a gene that passed on a propensity for bad feeding then in the wild those animals would not survive...

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Originally Posted by starmom

Is this genetic??? :confuzd:

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Here's an interesting thread going on, on KS about this very topic:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1641696,1641696