Is it ethical to keep snakes in rack systems?

Hi,

I think this is a very controversial topic. I don't really know the answer to this question.
I believe that the only downside for the snake to racks is the element of discovery. There's nothing in the tub but a water bowl, maybe a hide. The snakes are usually not stressed out because they are eating, but are you really making the snake happy?
I would want to purchase racks later, but I want my snakes to be happy and content.

What are your views on this?

There's a thread already here discussing racks, and th effects on snakes.
I believe that a typical ball python doesn't need "discovery". Snakes are not grand explorers, out looking for adventure. Adventure to a animal equals stress and possible danger.
I sincerely believe that a snake in a secure rack with proper temps and humidity is happy because it's quiet and dark and quiet.
My opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Hi,

I think this is a very controversial topic. I don't really know the answer to this question.
I believe that the only downside for the snake to racks is the element of discovery. There's nothing in the tub but a water bowl, maybe a hide. The snakes are usually not stressed out because they are eating, but are you really making the snake happy?
I would want to purchase racks later, but I want my snakes to be happy and content.

What are your views on this?

---

as long as your racking system is setup properly heat, thermostat, substrate, water bowl two hides, your snake will live a perfect content and happy life, racks are by far the best housing for a snake

Could you tell me the name of that thread or send me the link?

Thanks for helping me out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Hi,

I think this is a very controversial topic. I don't really know the answer to this question.
I believe that the only downside for the snake to racks is the element of discovery. There's nothing in the tub but a water bowl, maybe a hide. The snakes are usually not stressed out because they are eating, but are you really making the snake happy?
I would want to purchase racks later, but I want my snakes to be happy and content.

What are your views on this?

---

Lots of people keep their snakes in tubs... Don't really have an answer for this one yet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

There's a thread already here discussing racks, and th effects on snakes.
I believe that a typical ball python doesn't need "discovery". Snakes are not grand explorers, out looking for adventure. Adventure to a animal equals stress and possible danger.
I sincerely believe that a snake in a secure rack with proper temps and humidity is happy because it's quiet and dark and quiet.
My opinion.

---

Where is this discussion going on @

I suppose snakes are relatively simple beings with only a few needs:

1) Reproduction
2) Food
3) Temperature
4) Shelter

Of course, all of these are provided in a tub in a rack. It just bothers me that the animal is in such a small space for its whole life. I suppose you can see where I'm coming from, but who can tell that the snake isn't bothered by it either?

Is it ethical to "keep snakes" at all?

There are many that say no ... as well as keeping dogs, cats, and even fish as pets.

Morality and ethics are many times in the eye of the beholder so to speak ... I for one am happy that I live in a country where no one person has the right to impose their own personal ethics and morals on me.

I keep snakes in racks because I feel that's whats best for my animals ... over the last 25+ years of keeping snakes, I've used cages, tanks, racks, tubs, and everything in between and in my experience, the animals don't care one way or the other ... if people don't like it, I'm cool with that ... that's their own personal feelings ... but if those people try and tell me that I'm "wrong" because their own personal feelings and/or opinions don't jive with mine ... well, they can go flock themselves. ;) :banana: (can I say that? :confuzd: )

I encourage everyone keeping these animals to "try" instead of "judge" when it comes to the various methods of husbandry that people use. It may open your eyes to something new or at least give you a real reason to point at something and say "that's not for me" other than because you read about it and decided that it was "wrong" without trying it for yourself.

Just my $.02 ;)

-adam

Thanks Adam.

I suppose there's a very thin line between keeping snakes at all and keeping them in racks.

Anybody have any experience or ever heard of snakes that stressed out when put into a rack, after being kept in a cage or something like that?

Is it ethical to keep them in a glass tank? :confuzd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Anybody have any experience or ever heard of snakes that stressed out when put into a rack, after being kept in a cage or something like that?

---

Absolutely not. Actually, I've heard more stories from my customers of snakes doing better after being moved from a cage to a tub. Better at eating, shedding, breeding, etc.

A large enclosure is very complicated when it comes to providing the correct environmental conditions when it comes to ball pythons ... tubs make it a lot simpler and in the end, providing ball pythons with the correct temps and humidity is the most important aspect of keeping them successfully.

If you want to stimulate them, regular handling and exercise outside of the enclosure is the best thing to do whether you are using cages or racks.

Hope this helps.

-adam

My argument for this was that they can look around and thus have more of that "discovery" element. Good point though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Absolutely not. Actually, I've heard more stories from my customers of snakes doing better after being moved from a cage to a tub. Better at eating, shedding, breeding, etc.

A large enclosure is very complicated when it comes to providing the correct environmental conditions when it comes to ball pythons ... tubs make it a lot simpler and in the end, providing ball pythons with the correct temps and humidity is the most important aspect of keeping them successfully.

If you want to stimulate them, regular handling and exercise outside of the enclosure is the best thing to do whether you are using cages or racks.

Hope this helps.

-adam

---

Definitely helps. Thanks Adam.

Hopefully other people can share their views and opinions too!

You have to make sure you are not imposing what you as a human would want, vs what a snake would want.
Most snakes want to stay hidden, and eat. On occasion they might want to mate. If you put a ball python in a giant pen, with lots of lighting and plants and stimulous, and hides. They stay in the hides. That's a major complaint of ball python owners to me, that the snake just sits in the hide all the time. That tells me that the snake prefers to stay hidden in a enclosed dark spot.
I've kept snakes in large and smaller tanks, set up with tons of hides, and with nearly none. I went to racks, because the snakes seem less stressed to me.
I don't disagree with giving a ball python a giant open enclosure.. but if the snake isn't eating, and roams around looking for a spot to hide in, then why would you WANT to stress the snake, just to make it live as if it had human wants?
I'll try to find the thread too.

Edit: here it is
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=81034

They are not human or have human feelings they don't care,snakes are simple creatures they don't need much.

If you were to observe them in their natural habitat, you would notice that they really just sit in their burrow for 98% of their lives.They don't really move unless they are hunting, drinking, or breeding.

I know that BPs especially hide out a lot.

My JCP is in his hide about 5% of the time. He's always basking and moving around at night.

I have a nice AP cages for him, but would carpets do good in racks? Colubrids?

The only people that seem to think this is a controversial issues are those that do not use tubs, and from my experience, they are the minority.

Upon making that move it took me all of about 48 hours to realize the change in keeping constant temps and humidity.

As already noted, I have adopted/rescued numerous snakes that were being kept in tanks, most are thriving after being moved into tubs. Not to say that is the only element, but I personally will no longer take on animals that have been kept in glass tanks.

Elements as simple as the need to decorate them... everything you put in has to come out and be disinfected when cleaning. That heavy tank has to moved, wiped, rinsed, washed, etc. How is that going to hold up over the next 20-40 years?

A tub takes nothing to clean, and is not cumbersome to attend to.

By the time someone moves a snake into a tub, and gets it set up, there tends to have been a fairly steep learning curve occurring. Which *insinuates* to me that there has been more attention to what I would consider proper husbandry.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Bruce

PS: Not saying there are not attentive keepers that keep snakes in great vivs, I just feel that maintaining a tank falls under "advanced husbandry" and I think they should be worked towards, and not be promoted as starter projects.

Personally... it's not an ethics issue as much as a "comfort of the snake" issue. With any animal you own, you must learn to tune in to their own likes and dislikes. It gets harder the more animals you have, of course, but it's still doable.

As for racks, I would only keep ball pythons in something like that since they are naturally less active. They don't move long distances to hunt, but hang out in limited areas. They spend their days in burrows and the like. Therefore, they don't need/want a ton of space like other snake species.
HOWEVER, I do not like that most racks use tubs that are only 6" high. Granted, the snake doesn't need cathedral ceilings, but I think 6" is way too short. I believe this even more strongly since I used a 41qt tub to quarantine my biggest female when I rescued her and she was noticeably miserable in there! Once I moved her into the 90qt tub (same L and W, but 12" high) she was much happier. Now I plan on moving her to a 30g tank once my remodel of snake space is done since she just thrives on having room to lift her head and look about when she's out.
Another snake of mine simply hates tubs! She totally stops all normal behavior and eating when I try to put her in one. So, she lives in a 20long tank. :)

Give you snakes what they live best in. If they thrive, eat regularly, and do all the normal snake things in a 30g tank, then keep them in that tank. If they prefer the small, dark space of a rack...then that's what they should get.

Thanks for all your input guys.

I have to agree with Adam and Bruce.

I think that whatever's best for your snake is "ethical." My snakes all thrive in tubs. Some might not. -Shrugs.-

My experience is primarily with ball pythons so I wouls say they are fine in racks.

Now other kinds of snakes may have more of a need for discovery or visual stimulation.

My thought is it depends on the kind of snake we are talking about and what sucessful keepers of these snakes have found to help them thrive.

Ball pythons spend much of there life in small burrows and are very shy so I would say they are great canidates for tubs and they seem to thrive in them.

The key is to think of the animals comfort/personality and not ours.

Anybody got experience with Lampropeltis in racks?

Hi,

Just an odd observation while we are discussing different species in racks.

When I moved the corns into the colubrid rack I also moved my african house snake.

While I have to say the corns seem fine (as usual :rolleyes: ) the house snake has actually changed dramatically.

I was worried the extra space would freak him out initially and also worried about changing his hides for snugger fitting ones (coconut shells to terracotta drip trays ) he seems to absolutely love it. To the extent I actually feel guilty for not moving him into this type of enclosure years ago.

Male african house snakes have a reputation of eating only 50 -66% of the time (when offered once per week ) but since the move my guy has eaten every single week unless he was in blue.

His whole body shape has become stockier as well and he just seems a lot more robust. :confused:

I wondered if this was because the new rack has much more subdued lighting plus the tighter hides?

The temps are the same as his old enclosure but the humidity is a fair bit higher in the tub.

I definately plan on trying sinaloans in the rack if I manage to find any at a price and quality I like.

I just wondered if anyone else had similar experiences.


dr del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just an odd observation while we are discussing different species in racks.

When I moved the corns into the colubrid rack I also moved my african house snake.

While I have to say the corns seem fine (as usual :rolleyes: ) the house snake has actually changed dramatically.

I was worried the extra space would freak him out initially and also worried about changing his hides for snugger fitting ones (coconut shells to terracotta drip trays ) he seems to absolutely love it. To the extent I actually feel guilty for not moving him into this type of enclosure years ago.

Male african house snakes have a reputation of eating only 50 -66% of the time (when offered once per week ) but since the move my guy has eaten every single week unless he was in blue.

His whole body shape has become stockier as well and he just seems a lot more robust. :confused:

I wondered if this was because the new rack has much more subdued lighting plus the tighter hides?

The temps are the same as his old enclosure but the humidity is a fair bit higher in the tub.

I definately plan on trying sinaloans in the rack if I manage to find any at a price and quality I like.

I just wondered if anyone else had similar experiences.


dr del

---

It's interesting to hear this kind of result from a colubrid, instead of a BP...

There are some great people on here, it realy shows that they love thier snakes. I only have a tank right now, but plan on getting tubs/racks. My bp tends to be out a lot, either in a little dent she made in her bedding by the water dish, or basking. she has not used many of the hides I offered her.but I do agree for a large snake having a 6" high top is just too small

I have an awesome JCP and although he's big he loves to climb, and he rarely hides.
I think he'd hate to be in a tub.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

I have an awesome JCP and although he's big he loves to climb, and he rarely hides.
I think he'd hate to be in a tub.

---

JCPs are often good showy snakes for that reason, though they can be kept in a tub if you do it right. ;) It might be very difficult though if you want to add climbing ability.

All of my snakes have improved eating habits since being in racks. When I moved my ball python (first) it ate instantly in the rack/tub system. My tough eating corn snake also would start eating f/t and non-mice rodents which he was stuck on for the longest time.
My ball python did the same thing, and started eating ASFs when he refused them previously.

All of my other snakes are pretty good feeders for the most part. :D

I have a nice divided AP cage coming in hopefully in 2 weeks... that'll be for my BP and my soon to be grayband.

After that I'll think about getting a rack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Absolutely not. Actually, I've heard more stories from my customers of snakes doing better after being moved from a cage to a tub. Better at eating, shedding, breeding, etc.

A large enclosure is very complicated when it comes to providing the correct environmental conditions when it comes to ball pythons ... tubs make it a lot simpler and in the end, providing ball pythons with the correct temps and humidity is the most important aspect of keeping them successfully.

If you want to stimulate them, regular handling and exercise outside of the enclosure is the best thing to do whether you are using cages or racks.

Hope this helps.

-adam

---

If this helps, I have a big girl that used to be in a tank and never exceeded 1400 grams beacuse she would skip meals all the time. I've hard her since July of this year (in a 41qt tub) & she has not skipped any meals (I feed her a small rat each week). She is now up to 1851 grams, & sheds perfectly every time.

It is a good thing, though, that you are doing your homework about what's best for your snakes. It shows you are a responsible keeper. I keep all of my snakes in a rack system, btw. & they are all healthy.

My BP eats fine (even though he hasn't eaten these past two weeks, probably because it's the time of year), and I'll put him in an AP cage anyway.

Unless I come across feeding problems, he will stay there.

Otherwise I'll put him in a tub.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MuzeBallPythons

It is a good thing, though, that you are doing your homework about what's best for your snakes. It shows you are a responsible keeper. I keep all of my snakes in a rack system, btw. & they are all healthy.

---

Thank you; I do whatever it takes to make my snakes happy campers!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Thank you; I do whatever it takes to make my snakes happy campers!

---

And that's one of the best signs for a budding herper. Welcome aboard and we hope we can help you as much as possible. -Grins.- You'll definitely notice the passion here for these animals. Embrace it.

I didn't look through all the posts, but here's the link to the other thread found in BP Hus.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=81034


It's my opinion that snakes don't have emotions. I believe snakes are environmentally satisfied or not satisfied rather than happy or sad. They are not roamers/adventurers, and are quite satisfied in a small comfortable enclosure, they are simple creatures. If they don't eat, roam often, or stayed balled at all times you know they aren't satisfied or "happy" with their enclosure because of security/temps/humidity/etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

... Colubrids?

---

I keep all my corns in racks and/or shoe boxes. They told me just yesterday that they are happy. :P

I think ppl tend to put too much thought into this topic. If they are healthy and breeding then their "needs" are being met. These aren't mammals that crave our attention like my psycho Jack Russel Terrier.

New here but let me say when I read this thread I was like HUH?!

Let me reverse the question asked:
Is it ethical to keep snakes stressed out in a glass "show" tank?

That would make much more sense! Rack systems are designed to hide a snake and keep their temps and humidity as close as possible to their normal habitat.

Tanks on the other hand are possibly THE most stressful environments a snake can live in. The are constantly "on display" and being watched, they stress everytime someone walks by and THATS why they spend 90% of their time in those 2 small hides you NEED to provide.

A rack system on the other hand eliminates the stress of being on display gives then the proper temp and humidity (a good cage will as well but racks imo do it better) and will be dark and enclosed (just the way they like it)!

Remember Ball Pythons are one of the most bashful, shy snakes in the Python family they are by no means curious as to what's outside nor do they want to be looked at when they are curled up or hunting for prey, you snake may be accustomed to it but believe they do NOT like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JKExotics

New here but let me say when I read this thread I was like HUH?!

Let me reverse the question asked:
Is it ethical to keep snakes stressed out in a glass "show" tank?

That would make much more sense! Rack systems are designed to hide a snake and keep their temps and humidity as close as possible to their normal habitat.

Tanks on the other hand are possibly THE most stressful environments a snake can live in. The are constantly "on display" and being watched, they stress everytime someone walks by and THATS why they spend 90% of their time in those 2 small hides you NEED to provide.

A rack system on the other hand eliminates the stress of being on display gives then the proper temp and humidity (a good cage will as well but racks imo do it better) and will be dark and enclosed (just the way they like it)!

Remember Ball Pythons are one of the most bashful, shy snakes in the Python family they are by no means curious as to what's outside nor do they want to be looked at when they are curled up or hunting for prey, you snake may be accustomed to it but believe they do NOT like it.

---

I suppose a display cage like AP or Boaphile, with three enclosed, dark sides, is less stressful for the snake. :)

I only read the first page and skimmed the last. However, I raise the question of obesity. Snakes are so lazy as it is. I'm not saying give a BP a room but if you can provide proper conditions outside of a tub as easily then I believe you shoot. Here's the hypocritical side, I'm using a rack right now until I can afford to build my own cages. They won't be big, but bigger than what the tub is and I am taking into consideration all the needs of the animal.


Short answer is tubs are great and they don't matter to your animal. However, for display and to reduce the chance of obesity get a cage and make it suitable for the animal.

One thing to keep in mind is the natural behavior of the Ball Python. Ball Pythons spend 75% or more of their lives in burrows under ground. Literally eating everything they find in one burrow, then laying up in that burrow and digesting their meal, only to move on to the next burrow and meal. Tight cramped burrows are where they feel the most secure and spend the bulk of their lives.

Is it legal to keep ball pythons in racks in the U.S? Over here in Sweden it's not legal, the encloser have to be much bigger. So if you keep snakes in racks over here you have to be careful not to get busted or they will take all your animals away from you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikkla

Is it legal to keep ball pythons in racks in the U.S? Over here in Sweden it's not legal, the encloser have to be much bigger. So if you keep snakes in racks over here you have to be careful not to get busted or they will take all your animals away from you.

---

Bizarre! As they guys say their BPs do great in racks

That is one of the more ridiculous laws I have heard regarding snakes.

Gotta love human emotions coming into play when making laws for non-human species.

Or rather non-herpers making the laws.

Bruce

As far as obesity in snakes... my BPs, when active, can do laps in their tub as easily as in a tank, and when active they are very active regardless of the enclosure.

Bruce

I haven't read all the posts in this thread... however I am fairly new to BP's and after purchasing my first BP a month ago, I have already added 6 more to my collection.:rolleyes:

I was like many first timers... wanted to keep him in a tank (so the snake would be happier etc)... but it was horrible. The snake NEVER left his hide, he had a horrible shed and temps and humidity were a major problem... when purchasing my other BP's I decided to make my own rack (to hold rubbermaid tubs) and as soon as I moved my first snake from the tank to the tub... he started venturing out of his hide... was more active and the humidity and temps are PERFECT.

In my opinion a snake is happy if its feeding, pooping and shedding... and in my opnion the easiest way to give them the proper conditions to allow those three things to happen is in a tub.

RACKS ALL THE WAY.

Colin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Bizarre! As they guys say their BPs do great in racks

---

Yeah, it's really bizzare but most ball python breeders keep their bp's in racks including myself. But you have to be careful not to let the wrong people know.
I tryed tanks before and my bp's wouldn't eat and had bad sheds, all of that changed when I moved them to racks.

I keep my ball pythons in 4x2x18” PVC vision cages. My snakes have room to climb over logs, explore different hiding spots. They are all heated with radiant heat panels and heat tape with herpstat thermostats. I love watching them come out at night. They all eat and have perfect sheds.

We all have different ways to keep our snakes. My collection is pretty small and I don’t breed so it’s okay for me to spend 1000$ or so per enclosure.

[QUOTE=DutchHerp;948175]Hi,

I think this is a very controversial topic. I don't really know the answer to this question.
I believe that the only downside for the snake to racks is the element of discovery. There's nothing in the tub but a water bowl, maybe a hide. The snakes are usually not stressed out because they are eating, but are you really making the snake happy?
I would want to purchase racks later, but I want my snakes to be happy and content.

What are your views on this?[/

QUOTE]

Yes I realise this is an old thread BUT it’s still relevant imho


Soooo .. this is an ongoing concern for me as well ... mine have always been ‘housed’ in decent sized vivs full of branches and fake foliage BUT every so often, maybe once a month , I see one and think ... what kind of life does the poor thing have compared to the ones in the wild .

Now mine are all brightly coloured and wouldn’t last more than a day in the wild but .....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...83100ccd71.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...472e7cd8d3.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro