Powerfeeding

Opinions...

I have heard a lot of different opinions from a lot of different people. So if I missed something please let me know.

It depends, I feed my hatchlings every 5 days and I seriously doubt their lifespan will be reduced by doing so. There are alot of myths about powerfeeding. Of couse that doesn't mean you should feed every 2 days but getting the snake on a constant schedule and sticking to it you'd probably be fine.

I think every 5 days for hatchlings would be concidered more of a normal schedule, not power feeding. When I think of power feeding I think of feeding a sub adult more than one rat every 2-3 days trying to get it to breeding weight. That is not healthy.

I find people who power feed, are in it only for the money, do not care for the snakes health, and just want it closer to breeding weight to get more offspring. Its unhealthy and not only can it shorten their life span, but why? Must fat females will lay slugs, and fat males make lazy breeders. It can shut their system down and personally, if I find out that a breeder power feeds ANY of their snakes I WILL NOT buy from them.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

I find people who power feed, are in it only for the money, do not care for the snakes health, and just want it closer to breeding weight to get more offspring. Its unhealthy and not only can it shorten their life span, but why? Must fat females will lay slugs, and fat males make lazy breeders. It can shut their system down and personally, if I find out that a breeder power feeds ANY of their snakes I WILL NOT buy from them.

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That is what I have heard.

i think that this post says alot....

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Since I guess I kind of fueled the fire resulting in the creation of this thread, I will post up my take on Power Feeding.

I saw a bit ago on another thread, that someone was asking; What is Power Feeding. I don't know that there is a definition, and I don't know exactly how I would put it into words. However, I guess power feeding can be described as feeding more than the usual or recommended food items.

With that said, I have been/am guilty of feeding more than the norm. I feed some (I say some, becasue not all, and certainly not any snake that I intend to sell) of my hatchlings every three days. This is mostly done to "important" (it's in the eye of the beholder) males that I would like to breed at 6-8 months of age. Once that animal gets to 500 grams, or once it stops taking 2 meals a week, I discontinue the increased feed rate. Many of the males that I attempt this with, will quit taking the secon meal a week near the 300 gram mark.
An explanation of why I think this is not harmful, and some input from other sources I have spoken with is as follows. I believe (and this has been reaffirmed by other breeders large and small) that evolution has programmed these animals to grow as fast as possible soon after hatching. This only makes sense, as a large snake has fewer predators than a small hatchling Ball Python. I believe that these snakes may actually have a higher metabolism at an early age that allows them to take in more food and grow faster when they are small. I have been wanting to take a closer look at this theory, but have yet to do so. I think that hatchling Ball Pythons may actually be slightly warmer, and spend more time on the hot end of the tank, in an attempt to digest slightly faster. I may have to take some temps with the temp gun this year in an attempt to put some numbers to this theory. Also, I believe this is happening in the wild, as every year, imported wild caught balls that are believed to be less than 8 months old come in with some pretty astounding weights.

I do know of a couple of people that have fed hatchlings as often as every other day without any adverse effects. I am not saying that I condone, or have ever tried this, and I certainly do not recommend it. However, I wanted to relay something that I have seen and heard of in the past. I do believe that the act of "overfeeding" can be dangerous to yearling and older animals, and would never try it. However, I have yet to see an obese Ball that is under 6 months of age. Please feel free to question anything that I have written, and I always love a good discussion. I merely wanted to see this in the Advanced Husbandry section, as I do believe it has a place, and someone with a good bit of experience may want to try it and need a little guidance.

Regards,

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I agree with Mark Bailey on this topic. I have "power-feed" important males. By that, I mean fed every three days as opposed to five days for hatchling. I did this to get them up to breeding size at 5 or 6 months old. If I thought that it would hurt them then I would not have done so. I have also offered a second meal to females that I am trying to gain some weight before breeding season. I also do not feel that this hurts them in any way. In my opinion, if they do not want to eat then they won't.

I do not understand where people get the idea that power-feeding will shorten their life span. I do not think that any of us has been in this hobby long enough to come to that conclusion. Ball pythons can live to be 50+ years old. Does anyone know of any accounts of ball pythons that have died due to power-feeding? I don't.

I understand how people that think that power-feeding is detrimental to ball python's health would think that someone that power feeds is just in it for the money, but I disagree. I do not think that power-feeding hurts the snakes. If a ball python does not want to eat, then it will not. If it does, then it will. If someone wants a female to gain a few hundred grams by breeding season by feeding her every five days, then I do not see the problem.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I agree with Mark Bailey on this topic. I have "power-feed" important males. By that, I mean fed every three days as opposed to five days for hatchling. I did this to get them up to breeding size at 5 or 6 months old. If I thought that it would hurt them then I would not have done so. I have also offered a second meal to females that I am trying to gain some weight before breeding season. I also do not feel that this hurts them in any way. In my opinion, if they do not want to eat then they won't.

I do not understand where people get the idea that power-feeding will shorten their life span. Does anyone know of any accounts of ball pythons that have died due to power-feeding? I don't.

I understand how people that think that power-feeding is detrimental to ball python's health would think that someone that power feeds is just in it for the money, but I disagree. I do not think that power-feeding hurts the snakes. If a ball python does not want to eat, then it will not. If it does, then it will. If someone wants a female to gain a few hundred grams by breeding season by feeding her every five days, then I do not see the problem.

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You have the wrong idea of what power feeding is, feeding a ball once every three days until it is breeding size can be unhealthy according to how you do it. If the snake becomes 100% fat with no muscle then yes, that would be extream power feeding. But if it keeps a steady weight because it can handle/ gains from it then no it is not what I would can power feeding. Power feeding isnt only feeding alot, people watch the snake eat and then once they start to get to the end they start to shove p/k or f/t in its mouth so it will eat that one as well, and sometimes they do it again after that! Its not about how much the ball will eat, its how many rats they can shove down it befor it pukes it up.

I do not think that any of us has been in this hobby long enough to come to that conclusion. Ball pythons can live to be 50+ years old.

well... we know because the snake that just died at the age of 5 that should be reaching 50. When you cut it open( Have you ever seen the inside of an powerfed snake? Its not pretty... the fat puts alot of stress on its organs) there are just layers of pure fat.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I agree with Mark Bailey on this topic..

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Tim Bailey, actually! ;)

Since talking to Tim about this myself, I do feed my hatchlings more frequently, and as many breeders do - starting in August, I offer my females 2 rats per feeding vs. one that they get during the rest of the year to get them additional resouces for carrying eggs.

I also do not believe that ball pythons can be power fed - they are well known for going on extended fasts to "catch up" when they've been over-fed.

i find it interesting that not only in this thread but in others that talk about "power feeding" there is little or no mention of prey size,of equal importance is not only frequency but prey size.just a thought.have fun!

Honestly, if it's that important to breed the animals, why do you have them? Only for breeding? If there is a possible risk, why would you want to take that for your sake and not the animals.

I do not completely disagree, because we still do not know, so I'm not attempting to put down anyone (especially Tim) because I know you all still have healthy wonderful animals. Just playing devils advocate.

I'm not willing to put stress on my snake through a possibly stressful situation, but that is my choice from what I have learned. When digesting food takes more energy from a snake than slithering at the highest speed, and there is no break from this energy, or the food is too small to make up for it, I think it's possibly causing more harm than good.

But, then again, because their so young, and they wouldn't be power fed at adulthood, I wonder how much of an impact it would have on the body of a snake for it to be powerfed for it's entire life v.s. just adolescence.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Honestly, if it's that important to breed the animals, why do you have them? Only for breeding? If there is a possible risk, why would you want to take that for your sake and not the animals.

I do not completely disagree, because we still do not know, so I'm not attempting to put down anyone (especially Tim) because I know you all still have healthy wonderful animals. Just playing devils advocate.

I'm not willing to put stress on my snake through a possibly stressful situation, but that is my choice from what I have learned. When digesting food takes more energy from a snake than slithering at the highest speed, and there is no break from this energy, or the food is too small to make up for it, I think it's possibly causing more harm than good.

But, then again, because their so young, and they wouldn't be power fed at adulthood, I wonder how much of an impact it would have on the body of a snake for it to be powerfed for it's entire life v.s. just adolescence.

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Regarding younger snakes, as Tim said - it's in their best interest to grow as quickly as possible to be less of a prey item to bigger animals. I believe that Tim told me that some CH babies that are imported have been reported to be 2 x the size of their equally aged CB babies, because they ate every single time they came across prey.

The longer I've kept these animals, the more open that I've become to new methods of keeping and raising them based on what makes good common sense to me. When I first started keeping them, all my personal "rules" were very black and white about their care. Now I'm open to more shades of gray and that if the Barkers can keep them one way and be successful, and NERD can keep them a different way, and Brian Sharp yet another, who's to say that one way is better than another?

There are certainly very basic guidelines that we stick to when advising those new to keeping ball pythons, because they are tried and true. But for those with more experience under their belts, think outside the box a little. Just because someone is feeding more than you would, doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. How else do we learn more about them?

Three years ago, NO one would have bred a male under a year old. Now, with people like John Stranahan (jasballs) pushing the envelope you now hear Adam say on Reptile Radio that he's bred younger males, you hear many of the big breeders trying it and seeing no detriment to their male's health, as long as they are in tune with their animal and stress signals.

No one serious about their animals would willingly risk their health. I can't speak to un-ethical people who thought BP's were the next big money maker a few years ago, but most of the members participating here I find to be very thoughtful and put their animal's well-being first, but are also willing to try new things, while still being mindful to how their animals respond.

Just my $.02

Yeah it just doesnt seem right to powerfeed. The only way I could justify it is if you are trying to get a very underweight animal to a regular healthy weight. But even then I wouldnt go overboard with it. Say it an adult maybe feed it a slighty larger than normal prey every 4 days instead of 7 days. I have not done this but i figure that would be understandable. But even then once they are to proper weight then regular feeding schedules should be set in place.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

. When digesting food takes more energy from a snake than slithering at the highest speed, and there is no break from this energy, or the food is too small to make up for it, I think it's possibly causing more harm than good.

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i may be reading this wrong but if they used more energy digesting food then the what you were feeding them wouldnt that be under feeding not power feeding?
cuz i look at power feeding as feeding reg size prey more often or larger prey instead, this would be more than they would get if you were not to power feed.
if twice as much is not enough to make up for the energy lost how would half as much be enough then?

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

i may be reading this wrong but if they used more energy digesting food then the what you were feeding them wouldnt that be under feeding not power feeding?
cuz i look at power feeding as feeding reg size prey more often or larger prey instead, this would be more than they would get if you were not to power feed.
if twice as much is not enough to make up for the energy lost how would half as much be enough then?

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Power feeding usually in my knowledge is feeding a prey item every 3 days or so that is smaller than what they would normally get. I could be wrong, but I think that was the point Tim came across in the last thread about this.

I powerfeed but I do not over do it

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Power feeding usually in my knowledge is feeding a prey item every 3 days or so that is smaller than what they would normally get. I could be wrong, but I think that was the point Tim came across in the last thread about this.

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As I understand it (and I admit that I am new to snakes) power feeding is where you feed a normal sized prey every three to for days, and feed two at a time as mentioned earlier (following a live meal with a F/T meal).

everyone "trying to get their males up to weight" is using a certain extent of powerfeeding.

That said.....would a wild ball python (who is an opportunistic eater) be considered powerfeeding itself, fi it eats two mice in a day, maybe 4 mice in the course of a week.


ps Im not voting, the votes are not specific enough

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

everyone "trying to get their males up to weight" is using a certain extent of powerfeeding.

That said.....would a wild ball python (who is an opportunistic eater) be considered powerfeeding itself, fi it eats two mice in a day, maybe 4 mice in the course of a week.


ps Im not voting, the votes are not specific enough

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It depends on the area, if they have a ton of mice around, they eat as many as they can right? If they have none around, the move to look for some.
Theres also the large gaps of time that they don't eat that people tend to forget about, they may eat 4-5 meals really quickly in a row and not eat for a good two-three months.
I donno, it's really an opinion as we don't really know what goes on in the wild for them. I think a study is in order!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Regarding younger snakes, as Tim said - it's in their best interest to grow as quickly as possible to be less of a prey item to bigger animals. I believe that Tim told me that some CH babies that are imported have been reported to be 2 x the size of their equally aged CB babies, because they ate every single time they came across prey.

The longer I've kept these animals, the more open that I've become to new methods of keeping and raising them based on what makes good common sense to me. When I first started keeping them, all my personal "rules" were very black and white about their care. Now I'm open to more shades of gray and that if the Barkers can keep them one way and be successful, and NERD can keep them a different way, and Brian Sharp yet another, who's to say that one way is better than another?

There are certainly very basic guidelines that we stick to when advising those new to keeping ball pythons, because they are tried and true. But for those with more experience under their belts, think outside the box a little. Just because someone is feeding more than you would, doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. How else do we learn more about them?

Three years ago, NO one would have bred a male under a year old. Now, with people like John Stranahan (jasballs) pushing the envelope you now hear Adam say on Reptile Radio that he's bred younger males, you hear many of the big breeders trying it and seeing no detriment to their male's health, as long as they are in tune with their animal and stress signals.

No one serious about their animals would willingly risk their health. I can't speak to un-ethical people who thought BP's were the next big money maker a few years ago, but most of the members participating here I find to be very thoughtful and put their animal's well-being first, but are also willing to try new things, while still being mindful to how their animals respond.

Just my $.02

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I completely agree with you, and I'm not saying that one way is better than another. Just pushing the other side of things.
I wouldn't personally power feed, just because I'm not in a rush to breed my animals, but I'm not downing anyone who does, unless they do it in a way that they're knowingly harming their animals.
This site is full of a lot of members who are very good about caring for their animals and doing so in a very ethical manner, even with their feeders. :)

I think the first thing that needs to be addressed in a thread like this is your definition of power feeding. A lot of people have different ideas of what they would consider power feeding.

Personally, I've always had the understanding that power feeding is forcing the animal to eat more than they should by passing multiple prey items to it one after the other in a chain. That I believe is wrong, and the stress you would cause the snake out weighs any benefits you could gain from doing this.

Some people consider feeding more than once a week power feeding. I don't see this as power feeding. If the snake isn't hungry, it's not going to eat. As long as you're keeping an eye on the snake to make sure it's not becoming obese, there's nothing wrong with this. If it IS becoming obese, you're over feeding the snake, not power feeding it. I believe some snakes are genetically predisposed to eating whatever you put in front of them, so you DO have to know your animals.

I agree that young snakes are genetically disposed to try and grow as quickly as possible, hence eating more or more frequently, etc. However, I think people use this as too much of an excuse. Moderation is the key. Don't offer a hatchling 5 fuzzies just because you know he will take them...he is genetically determined to take them. There is no need for them to grow too fast and risk later health effects in captivity. In the wild, the risk of being prey when they are tiny is higher than the chance that they will get some health issue later in life from growing too fast as a hatchling, for this reason, they eat more/have a higher metabolism w/e. I think it is our responsibility as keepers to act in the best interest of the snakes and hobby, not our own wallets or goals.

As for what is or isnt powerfeeding and how to recognize if you are over/powerfeeding (depending on your definition), is a vicious cycle. Most of the big breeders are the ones that are powerfeeding more regularly, and because they have so many snakes, are unable to have a personal connection with each animal to notice all of the stress indicators or overall well being, like a smaller hobby breeder might have the time and motivation to do. This is just food for though but something I think is crucial none the less.

I had another thought going....but I lost it.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Regarding younger snakes, as Tim said - it's in their best interest to grow as quickly as possible to be less of a prey item to bigger animals. I believe that Tim told me that some CH babies that are imported have been reported to be 2 x the size of their equally aged CB babies, because they ate every single time they came across prey.

The longer I've kept these animals, the more open that I've become to new methods of keeping and raising them based on what makes good common sense to me. When I first started keeping them, all my personal "rules" were very black and white about their care. Now I'm open to more shades of gray and that if the Barkers can keep them one way and be successful, and NERD can keep them a different way, and Brian Sharp yet another, who's to say that one way is better than another?

There are certainly very basic guidelines that we stick to when advising those new to keeping ball pythons, because they are tried and true. But for those with more experience under their belts, think outside the box a little. Just because someone is feeding more than you would, doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. How else do we learn more about them?

Three years ago, NO one would have bred a male under a year old. Now, with people like John Stranahan (jasballs) pushing the envelope you now hear Adam say on Reptile Radio that he's bred younger males, you hear many of the big breeders trying it and seeing no detriment to their male's health, as long as they are in tune with their animal and stress signals.

No one serious about their animals would willingly risk their health. I can't speak to un-ethical people who thought BP's were the next big money maker a few years ago, but most of the members participating here I find to be very thoughtful and put their animal's well-being first, but are also willing to try new things, while still being mindful to how their animals respond.

Just my $.02

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Very well said, and I agree 100%. BTW, sorry Tim. I posted your name incorrectly in an earlier post.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

You have the wrong idea of what power feeding is, feeding a ball once every three days until it is breeding size can be unhealthy according to how you do it. If the snake becomes 100% fat with no muscle then yes, that would be extream power feeding. But if it keeps a steady weight because it can handle/ gains from it then no it is not what I would can power feeding. Power feeding isnt only feeding alot, people watch the snake eat and then once they start to get to the end they start to shove p/k or f/t in its mouth so it will eat that one as well, and sometimes they do it again after that! Its not about how much the ball will eat, its how many rats they can shove down it befor it pukes it up.

I do not think that any of us has been in this hobby long enough to come to that conclusion. Ball pythons can live to be 50+ years old.

well... we know because the snake that just died at the age of 5 that should be reaching 50. When you cut it open( Have you ever seen the inside of an powerfed snake? Its not pretty... the fat puts alot of stress on its organs) there are just layers of pure fat.

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I agree with you here. Forcing an animal to eat in this manner is wrong. I would never do that to my animals.

i was under the impression that the problem with power feeding was that the snakes muscle mass would outgrow its bone structure leaving a big brittle snake .... to combat that ive hurd breeders would give there BPs calcium suppliments among others to help the snake grow more robust .... ive never tried "power feeding" but my 8 month old female recently came off a feeding strike so im and looks a lil skinny so im gunna try to up her intake ... if she wants to

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

i was under the impression that the problem with power feeding was that the snakes muscle mass would outgrow its bone structure leaving a big brittle snake .... to combat that ive hurd breeders would give there BPs calcium suppliments among others to help the snake grow more robust .... ive never tried "power feeding" but my 8 month old female recently came off a feeding strike so im and looks a lil skinny so im gunna try to up her intake ... if she wants to

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You should be careful with what you're doing. Don't do things you aren't sure about, if you have questions you should ask them, but you have to be open to the answers in order for them to have any real value.

thats why i put it out there !.... so to clearify is there anytruth to what i mentioned in my perivous post on this thread????

I don't consider it "powerfeeding" to offer more rats to an adult female bp going into breeding season or feeding our hatchlings every 5 days or giving a young male some extra food so he's bulked up a bit going into his breeding rotations. For me that's just feeding to the snake's needs at that moment. Young animals in nature will eat a lot so they do grow fast and avoid being somebody else's dinner meal. Many animals, especially females of the species, will take in larger volumes of food just prior to breeding season so they can compete for mates, be in the best shape possible to survive the rigors of the breeding season and for females, so they can have the reserves to sustain a pregnancy and produce healthy young without destroying their own health in the process.

I would consider it powerfeeding if I'm stuffing so much food into my snake because I want to show off to someone else or haven't a clue what I'm doing in the first place when it comes to calculating how much total volume of prey that snake needs for it's current requirements. If I'm overfeeding just to push a snake unnaturally fast to breeding weight without considering other isses that quality that snake as a healthy breeder, then I would call that a dangerous husbandry practise. Basically it comes down to this for me, when I make decisions for the snakes it should always be in their best interest first. If I'm not experienced enough to make that call, then I need to either act in a conservative manner or seek the advice of a far more experience snakekeeper.

Personally though from what I've seen on this board over the years, there's a lot more issues with underfeeding than powerfeeding.

...Yes or no (other than opinions based on personal preference) i would ask for someone to provide evidence that it shortens their lifespan, or does any harm at all. It is one thing to say "No, its bad" or "Yes, its ok" but its quite another to offer some scientific or experienced based evidence or information on the subject.

I personally stick to a once a week routine feeding schedule, but if I said it was bad to feed them more often I would be basing my opinion on nothing, because I really don't know.

Brandon

1) I often see people posting franticly about their ball python(s) not feeding enough, or at all, at times, which I would surmise is a good indication of them eating when they feel like it; in other words balls can be picky eaters...

2) On the other end of the spectrum is the concept of "power feeding", or feeding them more than once a week, like once every 4 to 5 days, or more...

So which is it?

Do they eat when they want, like balls have demonstrated?

Or, can they be forced/induced into eating in greater intervals just be introducing food into their tubs?

I think they eat when THEY WANT TO, so if you provide them food, even if it’s more than once a week, and they eat it, they naturally wanted it. And if they don't want it (and I think evidence has shown that balls are like cats, in that they do what they want, when they want) then there is no harm in introducing food more often, because if a ball does not want to eat, IT WONT.

Brandon

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

That said.....would a wild ball python (who is an opportunistic eater) be considered powerfeeding itself, fi it eats two mice in a day, maybe 4 mice in the course of a week.

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Nature is power feeding these animals. We have only one choice:

We have to stop nature!!!! :D

JonV

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

I think the first thing that needs to be addressed in a thread like this is your definition of power feeding. A lot of people have different ideas of what they would consider power feeding.

Personally, I've always had the understanding that power feeding is forcing the animal to eat more than they should by passing multiple prey items to it one after the other in a chain. That I believe is wrong, and the stress you would cause the snake out weighs any benefits you could gain from doing this.

Some people consider feeding more than once a week power feeding. I don't see this as power feeding. If the snake isn't hungry, it's not going to eat. As long as you're keeping an eye on the snake to make sure it's not becoming obese, there's nothing wrong with this. If it IS becoming obese, you're over feeding the snake, not power feeding it. I believe some snakes are genetically predisposed to eating whatever you put in front of them, so you DO have to know your animals.

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I agree with you, power feeding is forcing another feeder item down the snakes throat as it swallows an item. I don't understand where it got confused with over feeding. "Power" feeding is using force not just putting a feeder in the tub. It is like assist feeding but the snake already has something in its throat your just adding more items.

In the late 80's I used to power feed my boas to get them huge and back then we (my friends and I) didn't know too much about reptile husbandry, it was more like experimenting. Who can get their boa to breeding size first....! Now we realize this does shorten the life span of boas. None of those boas lived beyond 5 years and they died with no apparent reason. I haven't tried this with any other snakes and probably never will again. :colbert:

So, all in all "Power" feeding is not a good thing. "Over" feeding depends on the situation if it is a good thing or not. And if it was a good thing it wouldn't be called overfeeding would it? hehehe

I agree 100% with Tim Bailey and am Glad to see I am not the only one. :gj:

you honestly need to take into consideration the term "power Feed" some mean to use it as an adjusted schedule from feeding normal sized meals every 5-7 days to larger or multiple meals every other day or every 3 days. extra weight on a snake that isn't muscle gained from proper digestion is just like you putting on 200 lb.. in a month .. it can't be too healthy.. now on the other hand, feeding normal sized meals every 3-4 days is also power feeding but done in a more rational manner. the snake eats more often but can usually digest it's first meal. besides when you power feed your snakes a lot of the time they get "pin head syndrome" and their heads look too small for their body lol

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

personally, if I find out that a breeder power feeds ANY of their snakes I WILL NOT buy from them.

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Really now what if you didn't know if the animal was power fed or that the person before you didn't power feed the animal you have now. Now answer this one very carefully Matt. I say this because it's a very strong statement that you can never say and be 100% sure

When I first got my retic, I felt the urge to feed her seven prey items a week. Prey items included chicks, large mice, chicken heads, sparrows and the occasional rat pup (that time, she was roughly 8 months old).

When I stumbled across this link (http://community.livejournal.com/herpers/1595022.html), it totally changed the way I would feed ALL of my reptiles. I do NOT power/overfeed...nor do I underfeed. I just feed "responsibly".

PS: I once got into a heated argument in the local forums for posting that link coz some newbie was asking if overfeeding a burm is okay. The poor chap who posted that my link was crap NEVER BOTHERED TO READ BEYOND THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. So please. READ THE ENTIRE BLOG before you aim your guns at me.

personally,and this opinion was explained by a friend and more knowelegable breeder then myself,,i dont believe you can infact,power feed a ball python,as mentioned before,they simply,,dont eat,and even themselves out,you can feed one 2 proper size meals a week,and a 3rd thats half proper size,,and that could work for a month,then all of a sudden,its only taking the one smaller meal,,it is evening its self out,and what i have refered to as "push"feeding,being following a swollowed animal up with another one,if you really stop and think,if the ball python is ready to even its self out,would it even eat the first one to allow that to happen?, I believe powerfeeding is an issue with other species,Burms,Retics,Anacondas,and Boas,as they have such stronger feeding responses,they dont care if thier way over weight,they will eat.I,along with many TOP name breeders,,do "power"feed or push a male or female,with an extra meal offered once in a while,,if they take it,great,if not,oh well,try again in a couple days.i do this for 2 reasons,One,to give a male a slightly higher chance at breeding that season,if he is one i need to go(although,after speaking with a semi local,but extremly well known breeder who i wont name,he told me has and does,push males with extra meals and see if he can get them tot ake the extra meals,,not push as in following one meal with another meal,that in 7 out of 10 cases,that male will NOT go even if up to weight and months old,and even then will usually only go to girls under 2000g)Now,once the meal reaches the magic 500,he slows back to weekly or bi weekly feedings,Females,if i start my breeding in november,then in july i offer one extra meal in the month,august 2 extra meals int he month,october,i go to every 5 days,with every other meal being smaller then nromal size(example,if shes eating a big medium,then her next meal is a big small)if she doesnt take,no big deal,but i know once she ovulates,she will stop eating,so i want her to have the size and energy to make the egg laying work best for her.

Now on a side note,,i try to "power feed"a bit more safely as well,,as with a strong eater who will eat every 3 days if it continues for 3 weeks it goes 10 days before next meal,then every 7 for 3 meals,,then 5 for 3 meals then back down

Powerfeeding can be done with a nice and healthy snake to help it grow a little, but if you powerfeed for too long your snake becomes overweight and can get stretch marks, as well as the skin in between the scales will show. I recommend powerfeeding for a snake that is underweight to get some fat on it, but once it's a nice and healthy weight the powerfeeding should stop because you go from an underweight snake to an overweight snake.

In the wild, most snakes probably 'power feed' themselves. They eat whenever given the opportunity.

My guess why would be, to get bigger faster.

I dont think I power feed, as I do not introduce another prey item as the other one is going down. All my snakes are on a 5 day feeding schedule right now. I start at the top tub and work my way down. After I finish offering the last BP prey, I go and thaw out maybe 3-4 more prey items. By the time the rodent is thawed out, the snakes are usually back in their hides. I offer them their second meal and if they take it, they take it. If not, they don't. Today was feeding day, 4/7 snakes ate (2 in shed, 1 still adjusting.) Out of the 4 that ate, 2 of them accepted the second prey item. I dont care if they eat double, I offer it in case they felt like they deserve to eat a little extra lol. The ones that take 2 usually either only take 1 5 days later or wait another week to eat. They know what they want, I just offer it. Who's to say that a wild BP that stumbles across a couple prey items won't indulge? It's my job to make my BPs comfy, and they're perfectly content with their feeding schedule/routine.


All that said, I disagree with power feeding where you use the animal's feeding response to your advantage to stuff a couple prey items at a time. That is just wrong...you wouldn't do that to your kid, would you?

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'm glad I stumbled onto it. I've been considering the matter recently as I recently acquired a number of very young snakes that I'm hoping to raise up at a reasonable rate (as opposed to most of my collection, which is largely full-grown).

Now, before reading this, I was worried that feeding one appropriately size prey item every five days was "powerfeeding!" It never even occurred to me that some breeders may actually attempt to "psuedo-assist-feed" in an effort to artificially induce the snake to eat more. To me, this seems like just a terrible idea ... Unless you're hoping for snake liver pate for dinner, I can't think of a single good reason to try it. (Or even "bad" reasons -- dead snakes don't make much money.)

Overall, I think that moderation is key, as with most things -- after reading this discussion, I tend to agree that, for the most part, offering extra prey items to growing youngsters in moderation is probably not terribly detrimental. I don't think it's necessarily the case that the animals can completely self-regulate feed intake -- in other words, even if your baby ball python is WILLING to eat two mice every two days, I still don't think it's a good idea that she should. If, however, she's willing to eat on a five day schedule and take an extra mouse every now and then, I don't think that should be too terribly harmful.

I think, though, that there are more issues being raised here than just how frequently one can safely, healthfully feed a growing baby boid snake ... The link posted by retic720 is fascinating, but I don't think that it is necessarily indicative of what would happen to a baby boid that is grown on a (relatively) rapid feeding schedule. The obese animal in the second necropsy was an adult female. I think it's important to note that she's an adult, because I genuinely wonder if even a fairly heavily fed growing juvenile snake would accumulate such heavy fat reserves. It's a good example of why adult snakes should be very moderately maintained, but I don't know that it necessarily applies to juveniles.

What may apply, though, is another issue altogether, and that is eventual lifespan. That's a debate that can be applied to all species, actually, humans included, but I think it's especially relevant to snakes as they *may* have the most potential to manifest its consequences ... What I'm referring to here is the idea that an animal fed on a moderate starvation diet will live a significantly longer life than one that is fed a normal, maintenance diet. This has been demonstrated in laboratory mice, and anecdotally in snakes. (I have read reports of vipers that lived 40+ years, all of which were fed on extremely lean [>6 meals/year] diets.) There are even some people who deliberately keep themselves on near-starvation diets in the hopes of reaping the supposed benefits.

The topic is controversial as other researchers have suggested that the lifespan increase of ~14 months, while obviously highly significant in mice that only live ~2 years, is, in fact, the maximum lifespan increase for all mammalian species, for which, I think, most of us would probably say that severe caloric restriction isn't really worth it. To my knowledge, the topic hasn't been at all studied in any real research setting in snakes. However, even assuming that it is true, I think it has some ethical considerations as well for us pet owners ... If I feed my pet mouse on a severely restricted diet, he may live longer than any other mouse on the block, but was I really a good pet owner for doing so? For forcing my mouse to live its life in a state of near-starvation? I don't think so, but I'm sure some others would disagree. For snake owners, however, its an interesting concept, especially given the anectodal evidence of elderly, lean vipers and sudden death in obese female breeders. It's also interesting because the concept of "quality of life" is one that isn't discussed in snakes too often, in any context ...

Personally, for my adults I feed on a moderate schedule -- I keep mostly blood pythons, so I generally feed my adults roughly once per month. I also adjust feeding according to each animal's body condition -- if I feel that animal has been looking especially "chunky" lately, I may wait an extra week or two before feeding again, or I feel she is looking "lean," I may give her a rat a week early. I feel this is a bit more natural, as well, as prey probably doesn't walk across an ambush predator's path on a nice, predictable feeding schedule ...

As for babies, I think I'll stick with the "every five day" schedule I've got my young'n's on and hope I get good results from that :)

Sorry that was so long -- I find this topic extremely interesting ...

I agree, overfeeding and power feeding aren't the same thing at all. I also think it's very difficult to overfeed a baby ball python. I've found that young snakes will often move themselves into a longer feeding cycle, by beginning to reject food offered every 5 days. Moving them to a 7 day adult cycle solves the problem.

Feeding every 5 days is not power-feeding, and does not cause pin-head syndrome. That condition is caused by inducing snakes to eat abnormally large amounts of food--as has already been stated, by introducing another food item on the tail of a previous one, to trick the snake into eating more than it intended to eat.

Power-feeding is all about trickery--pushing the snake into eating more than it actually wants to. It's not about offering food more often. Some snakes are greedier than others, but if their tummy is full, they will not eat. ;)

Power-feeding has been proven to be a bad idea by the experiences of many who tried it. Offering food more frequently to young snakes has not been shown to cause any issues I am aware of--if they're not ready for more food, they just don't take it.

Overfeeding adult snakes results in a fat snake, and that is unhealthy as well of course.

when i first read this i freaked out a bit because ill feed my BP's till theya re full most of them take 1 med rat or about that size but i have a few monsters that take 3-4 and then they are happy but not every feeding day is the same so i feed until my bp's are full makes us both very happy

My 2 younger BP eat every 4-5 days. If i dont feed them on that schedule, they start cruising their tubs like crazy. I think the younger snakes are just like a hungry teenager with a healty active schedule. When every they are hungry they eat. You cant realy force them or let them starve either.

I feed juveniles evry 4 days. My sub-adults are now weekly. The thing to be cautious about is they're metabalism. You would't want to feed another if they're still possibly digesting the previous. I give an extra day just to be sure.JMO
I'm not breeding. They're are some big breeders that feed once a week regardless of age and size.

Alright now, I agree that forcing the snake to eat more by putting another mouse in its mouth as it eats another is wrong, but I am going to be selfish and ask a question about my situation. So I have a baby male ball python, and it has eaten two hopper mice within ten days, (I am going the every 5 day route). Do you think it is alright for me to offer him a full grown mouse? He is roughly 16 inches and it is quite a pain to get hopper mice. Should I try feeding him a full grown mouse and see what happens? I am more afraid that the mouse may hurt him than anything.

Also, does increased feeding effect the size of the snake? I don't mean weight, as I will not be breeding my normal and have nothing to breed him with, but I mean length/thickness. I am hoping he can grow 4 feet instead of the 3 I am expecting, just because I would rather him be bigger, but I won't "power feed" him to try to attain that size. But do you think it is wrong to try and feed him a full grown mouse every 5 days or so? He is roughly a month old.

Any answer is appreciated, as I will be feeding him Thursday, which gives me time to get another hopper, but I don't have any now. When he eats a hopper I don't see much of a bulge, which is why I want to try a fully grown mouse...

i feed my BPs every friday, two rodents and they seem to be doing excellent

It looks to me that there is no 'set' definition of power-feeding. It looks to me like a lot of people consider it to be when you force feed an animal while it is in the process of swallowing another animal.


Anyhow, as a scientist I would very much be interesting in seeing some actual proof as to what the proven side-effects of powerfeeding are, if we take powerfeeding as feeding every 3 days or what not. It sounds to me that what a lot of people are thinking about as powerfeeding is really overfeeding. I believe there is a difference. Overfeeding will lead, most likely, to obesity and health problems caused by accumulation of adipose tissue and what not. Powerfeeding, if you just take the term power and feeding, sounds like you are feeding a snake so that in some way it gains 'power' in this case some extra weight for whatever reason. If you aren't starting with an obese snake to begin with, it seems to me that if you care about your animals (a lot more of us do than people seem to think apparently) then you will notice when it gets too fat, or when you need to slow down and regulate feeding. I see nothing wrong, and this is just my opinion, on "power" feeding. Stuffing an animals mouth with more food when it is swallowing sounds like "force" feeding to me and I only see that as an option if the animal is severely underweight and/or going to die.

If I felt that my girl needed some extra weight then I would feed her every 3 days. She will digest her food in that time and most likely be ready to eat again should she have kept a few of her instincts from the wild and the prey item make itself visible (in wild animal terms). Snakes are opportunistic and eat when they can, normally they arent kept on a schedule of every 10 days or every 5 days. They eat when they can. Now, I understand that these animals are not wild natural born animals and have changed since we have kept them as pets but I doubt seriously that they dont retain some form of wild animal thinking. There are only a few animals, like some fish, that I have read about that have been proven to eat until they will die just because food is offered, but I have yet to come across this in a snake report. I believe that if they do not want to eat, they will not eat. If the stimulus of being hungry is not there, they why would they want to eat? They arent people, they cant be bored and want some chips and get fat. They have much more basic instincts than that :)

That being said, my girl eats every 7 days, about 10% of her BW. Shes about 400 grams now and eats 2 20 gram adult mice. Two weeks from now I will be changing her to 50 gram weaned rats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blender345

Alright now, I agree that forcing the snake to eat more by putting another mouse in its mouth as it eats another is wrong, but I am going to be selfish and ask a question about my situation. So I have a baby male ball python, and it has eaten two hopper mice within ten days, (I am going the every 5 day route). Do you think it is alright for me to offer him a full grown mouse? He is roughly 16 inches and it is quite a pain to get hopper mice. Should I try feeding him a full grown mouse and see what happens? I am more afraid that the mouse may hurt him than anything.

Also, does increased feeding effect the size of the snake? I don't mean weight, as I will not be breeding my normal and have nothing to breed him with, but I mean length/thickness. I am hoping he can grow 4 feet instead of the 3 I am expecting, just because I would rather him be bigger, but I won't "power feed" him to try to attain that size. But do you think it is wrong to try and feed him a full grown mouse every 5 days or so? He is roughly a month old.

Any answer is appreciated, as I will be feeding him Thursday, which gives me time to get another hopper, but I don't have any now. When he eats a hopper I don't see much of a bulge, which is why I want to try a fully grown mouse...

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Do you know how much your hatchlig/baby weighs ? I have a hatchling i'm feeding up now and she was on hoppers and now switched over to rat pinkys and soon real small rat fuzzies. Shes about 90g. I go just smaller that the diameter of the snake at it's widest point.If you follow that you should be ok. Better to go smaller if you have to pick between two to be on the safe side with a baby.I undersatnd the timing involved with getting food from pet stores. I have 2 that try and work with me.

As far as the size question. I don't know for sure but i believe length might be predetermined kinda like your height. No matter how much you eat you won't get any taller. But you will get larger. Again, just making an educated guess.

1.1 lessers
0.1 Bumble Bee
0.1 normal het Axanthic
1.0 albino
0.1 BEL

You know what i hate to see? What DISGUSTS me?

Animals with misshapen heads due to the way they were fed, and animals that have so much fat, that you can see between the scales and they look like disgusting sausages.

I cant stand overfed/powerfed animals.

Babies fed frequently that remain in a healthy fat/muscle ratio i dont mind. But you can TELL when an animal is severely overweight, and that bothers me.

The internal organs can have irreversible damage done to them because of feeding practices like these, and it makes me very, very sad for these animals.