Euthanizing with helium?

I am getting a whack of feeders in a trade, and the individual I am trading with is a clown by profession and euthanizes with Helium...

Safe right? I mean, people inhale it all the time.

Just want to check to be sure.

Thanks in advance,
Bruce

Death from above?

Well atleast they will be a light meal!

would there sweaky voices get any higher?

I wouldn't be so sure about that, the chemistry might be a little different... The effects of being poisoned from helium might be different from carbon dioxide suffocation. I am pretty sure when a rodent is euthanized with CO2, it pretty much falls asleep and dies...

The thing you got to ask is "why helium?" my first guess is that it might just be cheaper to purchase, or is more readily available... I'm really not sure though

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Originally Posted by ev477

The thing you got to ask is "why helium?" my first guess is that it might just be cheaper to purchase, or is more readily available... I'm really not sure though

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When I said the person was a clown... I was serious. I am getting feeders from a clown. They have helium on hand for blowing up balloons. :)

I'm actually not too sure about this in terms of it being a better or worse method of euthanasia. Helium is less narcotic than Nitrogen which makes it better for deeper diving than Nitrogen. However, as a result, helium does not induce narcosis which is unconsciousness from a narcotic. Nitrogen, on the other hand, can induce narcosis when divers dive too deep. It's similar to being drunk, really.

Essentially, there is little difference between CO2 and Helium in terms of suffocation as both create oxygen deprivation. The only difference would really be the process by which the gas asphyxiates (sp) the organism.

See, CO2 makes "stale" air in your lungs and it interrupts the breathing process because CO2 passes from the blood to the air so when you put back in what your body is trying to put out, you suffocate.

With Helium, Oxygen is actually removed from the blood stream during the breathing process. So, instead of just not being able to breath, it actually is taking Oxygen from your blood stream- something CO2 does not do. The usual result is an uncontrolled fall that can cause serious injury, even if normal breathing resumes before brain damage occurs due to lack of oxygen.

It's arguable as to which causes unconsciousness or death faster. I guess it all depends on how well your blood supply is oxygenated at the time of suffocation.

Little chemistry lesson for the day! :P It's the best way I can explain it without drawing out the actually isotopes and gas exchange rates. Lol. Sorry!

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Originally Posted by Clyde Frog

I'm actually not too sure about this in terms of it being a better or worse method of euthanasia. Helium is less narcotic than Nitrogen which makes it better for deeper diving than Nitrogen. However, as a result, helium does not induce narcosis which is unconsciousness from a narcotic. Nitrogen, on the other hand, can induce narcosis when divers dive too deep. It's similar to being drunk, really.

Essentially, there is little difference between CO2 and Helium in terms of suffocation as both create oxygen deprivation. The only difference would really be the process by which the gas asphyxiates (sp) the organism.

See, CO2 makes "stale" air in your lungs and it interrupts the breathing process because CO2 passes from the blood to the air so when you put back in what your body is trying to put out, you suffocate.

With Helium, Oxygen is actually removed from the blood stream during the breathing process. So, instead of just not being able to breath, it actually is taking Oxygen from your blood stream- something CO2 does not do. The usual result is an uncontrolled fall that can cause serious injury, even if normal breathing resumes before brain damage occurs due to lack of oxygen.

It's arguable as to which causes unconsciousness or death faster. I guess it all depends on how well your blood supply is oxygenated at the time of suffocation.

Little chemistry lesson for the day! :P It's the best way I can explain it without drawing out the actually isotopes and gas exchange rates. Lol. Sorry!

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that was just .... unexpected ... I kinda chuckled to myself while reading this. Took me back to Chem class ... *sigh*

Haha. Science is my forte. Someone asked about the chemistry so ask and you shall receive :P

Just to address the "falling asleep" issue: As for "falling asleep" and dying, that's them going unconscious and their brain shutting down from lack of oxygen.Hard to do anything but lie there when major organs are failing. Especially the brain. Your body systems work together. Especially respiratory and central nervous. So, generally when the body senses that its going to suffocate, the brain begins to shut down section by section as the cells die off. Helium has the same effect. You don't get poisoned. They both make you feel REALLY dizzy and organisms can't handle the spinning and topsy turvy feelings so they lie down to avoid injury or a predator sensing that they are incapable of escaping attack at which point the body accepts defeat, goes into unconsciousness to try to preserve all oxygen for the brain (muscles use a lot of oxygen) and once the brain senses death, it begins to shut down the other systems with the limited time it has while the cells are dying.

As I think about it more and more, helium might even be quicker. If quicker=better or safer then I'd say yes - Helium is better/safer.

As for "why helium"? Well, two reasons - 1. Helium is more readily available. It's a heavier gas and as a result is much easier to obtain from air via distillation.

2. This is going on a stretch, but assuming the average person knows the gas properties of Helium vs CO2, they know that it takes less Helium to kill a person than it does CO2 because CO2 molecule is 2 parts Oxygen, afterall.

helium will knock them out..... trust me... lol.. if it can knock a person out it can knock a mouse out

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Originally Posted by Clyde Frog

Haha. Science is my forte. Someone asked about the chemistry so ask and you shall receive :P

Just to address the "falling asleep" issue: As for "falling asleep" and dying, that's them going unconscious and their brain shutting down from lack of oxygen.Hard to do anything but lie there when major organs are failing. Especially the brain. Your body systems work together. Especially respiratory and central nervous. So, generally when the body senses that its going to suffocate, the brain begins to shut down section by section as the cells die off. Helium has the same effect. You don't get poisoned. They both make you feel REALLY dizzy and organisms can't handle the spinning and topsy turvy feelings so they lie down to avoid injury or a predator sensing that they are incapable of escaping attack at which point the body accepts defeat, goes into unconsciousness to try to preserve all oxygen for the brain (muscles use a lot of oxygen) and once the brain senses death, it begins to shut down the other systems with the limited time it has while the cells are dying.

As I think about it more and more, helium might even be quicker. If quicker=better or safer then I'd say yes - Helium is better/safer.

As for "why helium"? Well, two reasons - 1. Helium is more readily available. It's a heavier gas and as a result is much easier to obtain from air via distillation.

2. This is going on a stretch, but assuming the average person knows the gas properties of Helium vs CO2, they know that it takes less Helium to kill a person than it does CO2 because CO2 molecule is 2 parts Oxygen, afterall.

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Helium is not a heavier gas than air or CO2....also, CO will kill quicker than both He and CO2, so that argument for 2 parts oxygen is null.

As for my 2 cents....I think the difference between the two would be insignificant as far euthanasia, so I wouldnt worry about buying the feeders euthanized with He.

Ah. I said it backwards. CO2 is denser than air, helium is lighter. Thus why helium balloons float and all that good. I'm a bit dislexic at times :P

CO would kill quicker but wasn't an option. CO kills so quickly because of the poisonous bond it makes with iron sites in the hemoglobin in blood - forms the compound COHb which disrupts the way the blood cells deliver oxygen and it makes it so they can't release the oxygen to the tissue.

I personally wouldn't feed my snake a rodent euthanized with CO, but maybe that's just me being over cautious. Lol. I can't say that I think many people would use rodents euthanized via CO, though. I've never heard of someone euthanizing their rodents with CO.

Regardless of that, CO2 and CO are pretty different compounds even though they're of the same elements. It doesn't really null my 2 parts oxygen thought. But, to get back to the OP's original question:

I don't think he should worry about it either but as far as helium being "safer" (which to me meant being potentially quicker), I think helium would be slightly "safer" due to the fact that it effects your blood's oxygenation level more quickly than CO2 thus causing a quicker shut down of your body as opposed to the CO2 effect. But, that's just my thinking. Can't say I've ever read a study on CO2 vs helium euthanization but that's just what my thinking leads me to believe.

Thank you for catching my mistake. I sounded backwards :P

I agree with you on the potential risks of CO residue, for lack of a better word, remaining in the prey, and I wouldnt recommend that either. I know the mechanism for how CO, He, and various d-orbital mimics kill us...ie, cyanide, I just dont agree with the CO2 killing slower since it has 2 O atoms, it doesnt make a difference if the body doesnt have a way to convert into something usuable. For another example, take ozone, O3. Pure oxygen, yet toxic in respiration.

This is getting kind of rediculous, but I guess even if it is the smallest bit, prey euthanized with any noble gases (Helium, Argon, Krypton, Neon, Xenon....Radon) would be better preserved since it wouldnt as reactive to potential contaminants in the body. Again, this is never going to make any difference, just got me in the chem mindset...though like CO, I dont recommend radon.

CO also build up in the blood stream over time! probally not a goood idea in your house.

CO2 is slightly toxic also its not real environmentally friendly

helium isnt toxic doesnt build up in the blood over time and is supposedly environmentally friendly

argon will make you sick!

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I agree with you on the potential risks of CO residue, for lack of a better word, remaining in the prey, and I wouldnt recommend that either. I know the mechanism for how CO, He, and various d-orbital mimics kill us...ie, cyanide, I just dont agree with the CO2 killing slower since it has 2 O atoms, it doesnt make a difference if the body doesnt have a way to convert into something usuable. For another example, take ozone, O3. Pure oxygen, yet toxic in respiration.

This is getting kind of rediculous, but I guess even if it is the smallest bit, prey euthanized with any noble gases (Helium, Argon, Krypton, Neon, Xenon....Radon) would be better preserved since it wouldnt as reactive to potential contaminants in the body. Again, this is never going to make any difference, just got me in the chem mindset...though like CO, I dont recommend radon.

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Agreed. I didn't mean just because of the 2 O atoms I was just thinking out loud. :P

ya`ll are nutters... and some of you are REALLY smart nutters too!

thanks for the input, appreciate it.

Bruce