Starting Out - Questions About Quantity

Well, I have a baby ball python who approximately 16 inches right now (born on July 9th). He was fed last Saturday by his previous owner and I obtained him Tuesday. Needless to say, I'm gonna have to feed him in the next week or so.

So, I was planning to head to Petco tomorrow and check out what they have for mice so that I could start my own feeder colony. Here's where my questions come in.

Since I only have one snake (and plan to have only him for quite some time), how should I set up my colony (in terms of a male to female ratio)? I planned on doing a 1.2 ratio or maybe even a 1.1 since I'll be using the babies quite young at this point in his life. However, I did plan on keeping a male and a female from that first litter in the event that one from the pet store died, was sick, etc.

Also, I know I'm going to need multiple tubs because I've read that you are supposed to remove the male from the enclosure that the females are in so that he doesn't eat the babies. So, I was going to have 3 tubs. Tub1-females. Tub2-male when the females are pregnant. Tub3-babies when they are ready to be removed from mother. If I need more space than that, it won't be hard to add on but is it true that the removal of the male is necessary? I've heard mixed things.

Thanks! Please educated me :P I've been reading a lot but everyone seems to breed for upwards of 10 snakes and I only have my one little guy. It might seem silly to breed just for him but in a few months I'll be back to being a relatively broke college kid, so the breeding with cut down his feeding cost some.

I would probably do a 1:2 ratio, just incase one of the females does not produce. I used to breed mice about 15 years ago and I always used to seperate the girls after they got prego. I just started breeding again and the first female that got prego, I put in a seperate tub. I was running a 1:3 ratio. She had a litter of nine pups. When the second gal got prego I decided to leave her with the other female and male. She dropped a litter just yesterday of fourteen pups and all seems to be going well. Last I checked on them, none had been eaten. And I think she is going to need the extra help from the other female to nurse them.
Also was just wondering. You mentioned that you would be feeding the mice off fairly young. I have four BP's that were born in late July early August and they are all eating adult mice. Are you sure your snake can't handle a bigger meal?

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Originally Posted by snakecharmer3638

I have four BP's that were born in late July early August and they are all eating adult mice. Are you sure your snake can't handle a bigger meal?

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There lies the mystery! Lol. I adopted him from a woman who is breeding BPs and had two males of the same het. Not needing two for breeding, I was able to take one. She told me that he eats 2 live mice but failed to tell me what size (and in my excitement, I didn't ask). He's about 16 inches right now but he does look a little skinny so that's why I'm a bit puzzled. I shot her an e-mail asking what size she was feeding him and now I'm just waiting for her to get back to me. If she gets back to me soon I'm going to head out to Petco and pick up what he eats and then maybe next week I'll begin my mouse colony. I want to get a feel for his eating habits before I start my little rodent family.

Do your snakes eat one or two adult mice?

First I have to say, for just one snake I would buy frozen, tons cheaper!

Second, I would start with 2 females to one male. Some will say remove the male some will say leave him in there, so this is up to you, if they young get eaten the first time remove the male, if not leave him in there.

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Originally Posted by Clear

First I have to say, for just one snake I would buy frozen, tons cheaper!

Second, I would start with 2 females to one male. Some will say remove the male some will say leave him in there, so this is up to you, if they young get eaten the first time remove the male, if not leave him in there.

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I was thinking of buying frozen but she said she fed him live and because he's so young & BPs are so picky (sometimes), I didn't know if he would take it. Grr. This is a puzzle!

Just thought of another quick question. When I start with my original 3 (1.2), do I then bred those babies with a dif. litter from the same parents?

All this gender crap is so confusing :confused:

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Originally Posted by Clyde Frog

Just thought of another quick question. When I start with my original 3 (1.2), do I then bred those babies with a dif. litter from the same parents?

All this gender crap is so confusing :confused:

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I dont think that it matters.

For ONLY one snake breeding will cost you TONS more than just buying a frozen or live mouse. Then theres what you want to breed (mice) once that snake gets past 6 months a mouse will NOT be enough of a food source and you will need rats or ASFs. Breeding rodents for anything under 4-5 snakes is just way too much cost in my opinion and once your colony gets big which it probably will you will have tons of "left overs" to either sell or kill off. It sounds simple but breeding 2 colonies of rodents is alot harder than keeping 20 snakes, I spend FAR more time in my rodent room than my snake room.

I,personally, can't find the logic in starting a breeding colony for one snake. I would just buy his meals as he needs them. As far as size, he needs to be eating something a little larger than the largest part of his body. I would also feed him rats instead of mice. If you are going to start a colony you will need to do mice so they don't outgrow the bp. I for one feel like a med rat is better for an adult bp than 3 or 4 adult mice.

When I was still living in the dorms, my friend (Tweets) and I decided to try breeding Rats for our 3 snakes. In between buying feed, substrate that needed replacing EVERYDAY to keep the smell down, and replacement hides/toys that they would chew up overnight, it was costing us well over three times the price of our normal feeding bills for just three BP's (four BP's near the end of when we had them). I would agree with either buying frozen or live unless you have 6+ snakes to feed.

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Originally Posted by Clyde Frog

There lies the mystery! Lol. I adopted him from a woman who is breeding BPs and had two males of the same het. Not needing two for breeding, I was able to take one. She told me that he eats 2 live mice but failed to tell me what size (and in my excitement, I didn't ask). He's about 16 inches right now but he does look a little skinny so that's why I'm a bit puzzled. I shot her an e-mail asking what size she was feeding him and now I'm just waiting for her to get back to me. If she gets back to me soon I'm going to head out to Petco and pick up what he eats and then maybe next week I'll begin my mouse colony. I want to get a feel for his eating habits before I start my little rodent family.

Do your snakes eat one or two adult mice?

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I quess this can be looked at several ways. When I say "adult mice", I mean large mice. But some people could consider a small mouse that had just been weaned an adult mouse. I feed my girls one large mouse every five days. Also to consider is sometimes it can take months for a breeding colony to get started. And by that time your snake may require an even larger meal. I had my breeders together for over a month before I got any babies. And then after the babies are born your looking at twenty two more days until they can be weaned. And maybe another month to fatten them up. So there is a little time in just getting started.
So as others have stated you might want to consider just buying your feeders as needed. It would probably be cheaper for me if I did, but I don't live close enough to a place where I can get feeders. So I kind of started breeding again just because I was getting several mice at once, probably thirty every time I went to the pet store. So since I was already housing mice and spending money on food and bedding, and plus I like breeding mice and will probably start breeding rats when I get more room, I just decided to go ahead and set up a few colonies.
So I quess what I'm trying to say with all my rambling is.... Some people breed out of necessity and others do it just because they like the experience of it all. :D

it didnt take me that long to start breeding mice again!
it is kinda costly for just breeding for one snake depending on what the cost is locally.

run to petsmart or petco, buy a pack of the frozen mice in the size he currently eats, warm one up in warm water and see if he will take it. If he does buy frozen!

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Originally Posted by Sebrina

Then theres what you want to breed (mice) once that snake gets past 6 months a mouse will NOT be enough of a food source and you will need rats or ASFs. Breeding rodents for anything under 4-5 snakes is just way too much cost in my opinion and once your colony gets big which it probably will you will have tons of "left overs" to either sell or kill off. It sounds simple but breeding 2 colonies of rodents is alot harder than keeping 20 snakes, I spend FAR more time in my rodent room than my snake room.

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I have several adult BPs that only take live adult mice. For me, some just want mice. I have tried all the tricks and nothing works. They are proven breeders and very large on just a few mice per week.....most are pastels. lol.

In my experience with rodent breeding, having 2 colonies would take about 5 minutes of work per week.....but I don't keep setups like most.

Ok this is my experiance. I have one BP I got her in February, the only reason I am breeding my own feeders is because the nearest pet shop is 50miles away. She eats 1-2 full sized mice a week (in shed this week so not eating) Baby mice grow quick so one week you will have tons of perfect sized mice but in a few days they will be too big and you will be left with many, many extras. My bp did eat f/t for a while then she got picky and did not want more so now it is live all the way. I breed one litter of pups every few months to keep the population going. I keep one breeding pair, and the rest are seperated into a male cage and a female cage. The breeding cage is kept empty untill I am down to 3 weeks of feeders left. I have left the male with the female and babies, but I only do it when I need her to have many litters. I have never had a male eat any of the pups. If you do not remove the male before the pups are boorn you will have a new litter just as the first litter is weened. With one snake eating 1-2 mice per week, and a single mouse having 6-20 pups (yes 20 most of mine have that many at a time) Can you handle that many mice? If you breed 2 females at a time you will become overcrowded very fast. (I made that mistake in my first couple months)
As I sit now with many rats and mice I am spending $30-$50 a month in rodent food and bedding.
To be sure the mice you get are good for breeding, get 2 males and 2 females, keep them in seperate cages (males in one females in the other) for 1-2 weeks, if they don't die then you are good to go. Breed one litter at a time. A female mouse comes into heat every 4-6 days so leave the male with her for 2 weeks, if you do not want back to back litters remove the male. Expect the litter in another 1-2 weeks mice are only pregnant for 20-28 days, and come into heat again within 24 hours of delivery. When your pups are 3-4 weeks old they will be weened by the mom, watch for them to be eating solid foods and nuse less. be sure to seperate them into the male/female cages before they hit 5 weeks or they can and will breed. If your cages become over crowded your more dominant rodents will start killing off the weaker ones, so to avoid food compition.
I hope this helps
I learned the hard way
Jamie

I don't know what kind of mice you're breeding but I have yet to see any mice outgrow a bp out of food standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Doxster

I don't know what kind of mice you're breeding but I have yet to see any mice outgrow a bp out of food standpoint.

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If the BP is only a few months old, a jumbo mouse would be very difficult for it to swallow.

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Originally Posted by Purrrfect9

If the BP is only a few months old, a jumbo mouse would be very difficult for it to swallow.

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Depends on who is keeping it. I have 4 month olds on small rats. I try to get babies on jumbo mice asap.....usually about 6-8 feedings or 2 months. They are designed to eat lots and grow fast as babies. Maximum growth potential is achieved during the first 12-18 months. Those that grow their animals slowly are only starving the animals. With ball pythons, I feed them as much as they want to eat because I never know when they will fast for 6 months. ;)

As far as feeding an adult a couple of mice a week, you'll need more. I would say 1.3-1.4 breeder mice would keep an adult fed at about the right pace. As long as you are rotating litters so you are not overrun with mice all at once you should be fine. My adults that feed only on live adult mice get 4-8 large mice per week.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I have several adult BPs that only take live adult mice. For me, some just want mice. I have tried all the tricks and nothing works. They are proven breeders and very large on just a few mice per week.....most are pastels. lol.

In my experience with rodent breeding, having 2 colonies would take about 5 minutes of work per week.....but I don't keep setups like most.

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I keep 2 colonies of 5.25 per colony in a rat rack, this isn't counting the offspring they produce just the breeding colonies. I eliminate my rodent costs and even make a few bucks (not much trust me) selling to local reptile owners in the area. If you only spend 5 minutes in a reptile room per week with this many animals your doing something wrong. I've had picky eaters in the past as well but I've yet to meet a snake that didn't transition over to rats if your persistant (no, not starving an animal). I've just started to transition over to ASFs, currently have 3.9 hoping to fully transition once we get the ball rolling with that. I've tried 1.2 - 1.3 - 1.4 and 1.5 sure it works but takes way too long. Most of my rodents are very docile and I even let my kids play with them. The only fighting I get is over a custom wheel I just put in last week in every rack enclosure, but nothing major.

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Originally Posted by Purrrfect9

If the BP is only a few months old, a jumbo mouse would be very difficult for it to swallow.

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Yes, true. However he said he got his bp in february, that makes it almost a year old. At that age it should be able to down adult rats so mice should never be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Sebrina

I keep 2 colonies of 5.25 per colony in a rat rack, this isn't counting the offspring they produce just the breeding colonies. I eliminate my rodent costs and even make a few bucks (not much trust me) selling to local reptile owners in the area. If you only spend 5 minutes in a reptile room per week with this many animals your doing something wrong. I've had picky eaters in the past as well but I've yet to meet a snake that didn't transition over to rats if your persistant (no, not starving an animal). I've just started to transition over to ASFs, currently have 3.9 hoping to fully transition once we get the ball rolling with that. I've tried 1.2 - 1.3 - 1.4 and 1.5 sure it works but takes way too long. Most of my rodents are very docile and I even let my kids play with them. The only fighting I get is over a custom wheel I just put in last week in every rack enclosure, but nothing major.

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I don't think you read my post entirely. I never said anything about 5 minutes a week in my reptile room.? I spend about an hour a day, and 4-5 hours a day on weekends. I said with only 2 mouse colonies, it would take around 5 minutes per week to care for them.....but I use a much different setup than most. Efficiency is key to keeping a large group of rodents. Even with 5.25, I could do it on about 10 minutes per week.

As far as getting some balls to switch over, I don't consider them being switched over if it's switching them to ASF rats. I'm sure they would easily take something that is native to them. I have around 30 ball pythons and most take live rats, some however, will only accept live adult mice and I have tried everything. Granted, they are all pastels that started on rats, they now only want live mice. I have not tried ASF because I can't get them in my area.

I'm not sure how many animals you have, but having a small-med size collection you will run into more obstacles than with just a few.

No worries Brandon and my apologies if I offended you, would you mind sharing what type of setup you have. If I can learn something new today it was well worth it. :) I currently have about 35 snakes (most are hatchlings only a few ready for breeding), this is in fact my first year breeding my OWN snakes.

No offense taken at all Sebrina. I didn't mean to sound harsh if I did. I've been breeding snakes for almost 20 years and rodents for nearly as long, until the last couple of years. I decided, with the advice of my wife, to stop breeding rodents a couple of years ago.....she wouldn't let me in the house. lol.

In my experience with ball pythons, they may start great on frozen thawed rats, but at 700-1000 grams many of them fast for several months. When they decide to begin feeding again, they switch their preferred food to something that makes things difficult for us keepers. This has been my experience with balls since I began keeping them in the early 90s.

As far as rodent breeding goes, I'll see if I can't find some old pics of my setup. With the help of my cousin, we could clean around 200 cages in the matter of about 2-3 hours per week. We set up automatic water, had food bin that would last a week, and kept most colonies in 1.5 groups. We were pulling around 2000 mice per week, including pinks, fuzzies, hoppers, weanlings, and adults. Our initial startup with from my original 16 cages I used to feed my own animals. We were running over 100 breeder cages in less than 2 months after holding back stock from the originals. Although we used the rack system, you can also use a similar style without the rack for effecient cleaning and production.

I'll try to get a pic up soon.

I'd definitely like to see pics of your setup, Brandon!