Hidden Gene Explaination

On another thread someone asked what a hidden gene is (like in the NERD line womas and RDR's Platty Daddy). It's one of those things that I understand on a very basic level, but can't explain well to someone else.

Can anyone who understands it better share their understanding of what exactly a hidden gene is?

Thanks in advance, I'm sure it will be interesting to many of us.

From my simple understanding it is a mutation gene that has no visual effect on the normal appearance of the animal. However it falls on the same allele within the DNA as another visual mutation so when they are combined the "hidden gene" alters the way the visual mutation is expressed.

Think of it like a filter for visual mutations that fall at the same location with in the DNA.

some please correct me if I'm way off base here.

From my basic understand of Genetics the hidden gene is simply a gene that does not become visually appearant until it is complimented by a morph. Chances are the hidden gene is on the same alleles as a number of visual morphs but it doesn't become obvious until the gene that keeps it from being shown is removed or modified.

I feel I have a easier time grasping the idea of genetics because I do a lot of programming, and all DNA is is code.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

From my basic understand of Genetics the hidden gene is simply a gene that does not become visually appearant until it is complimented by a morph. Chances are the hidden gene is on the same alleles as a number of visual morphs but it doesn't become obvious until the gene that keeps it from being shown is removed or modified.

I feel I have a easier time grasping the idea of genetics because I do a lot of programming, and all DNA is is code.

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What’s the difference between a hidden gene, and a recessive gene, then?

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Originally Posted by Mischke

What’s the difference between a hidden gene, and a recessive gene, then?

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Very good question!:)

So is it passed on like a recessive? Randomly?

Or is it attached to either the normal or morph parent (or does it matter)?

Guess I am just wondering, that if you breed a combo for a hidden gene woma, is there anyway to tell if any of the non-woma siblings have it or not?

Any phenotype differences in the homo or hetero state?

Bruce

PS: Thanks for the thread Robin, this has been driving me NUTS!!! :P

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

So is it passed on like a recessive? Randomly?

Or is it attached to either the normal or morph parent (or does it matter)?

Guess I am just wondering, that if you breed a combo for a hidden gene woma, is there anyway to tell if any of the non-woma siblings have it or not?

Any phenotype differences in the homo or hetero state?

Bruce

PS: Thanks for the thread Robin, this has been driving me NUTS!!! :P

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exactly what he said word for word start to finish.

*edit* exchange bruce with J tho *edit*

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Originally Posted by Mischke

What’s the difference between a hidden gene, and a recessive gene, then?

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Recessive genes are just like any other recessive gene in a human, it is only expressed with both sides of the gene are available, you only get 1/2 of the gene from 1 parent, so your other parent has to carry the gene for it to be expressed. That's why Hets can produce albinos, they care 1/2 of the gene thus you have a 1/4 chance of getting an albino if you breed hets to het.

The hidden Gene, from what I think we know so far, isn't the same a recessive gene because with a Simple Recessive gene you can take 2 animals that carry said gene, breed them together you have a 1:4 chance of producing the "Homozygous" form. That isn't exactly how the hidden gene works though. I also think that it is important to note that there isn't really a "Single" hidden gene, it's likely that like the Hypo morph, there are different genes.

Genetics are a little bit more complex then Recessive and Co-Dominate and I think ball pythons aren't the best examples. Boas, and Carpet pythons are different because in Boas and Carpet Pythons there aren't many morphs and even though they do have some, creating certain looks isn't possible without doing selective breeding, like Tangerine Leopard Geckos. They aren't really a morph, they're just selectively bred.

I hope I didn't really confuse anyone anymore than they already are. Genetics can be as simple as it can be complex, it just depends on how deep you want to dig.

So for lack of knowing a better way to say it. Its like a disease that you carry but are immune to so you show no signs is illness but can pass on to someone else that it causes symptoms?

if you have an animal that the hidden gene is visible in like the inferno will their off spring have it or it 50/50 or what

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Originally Posted by Mischke

What’s the difference between a hidden gene, and a recessive gene, then?

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Are all genes only expressed in physically apparent ways? ;)

So hidden genes have incomplete penetrance?

I don't know anything about NERD's woma hidden gene so I'm only going to talk about RDR's Platy based on the considerable breeding results he has posted and the years that we have been discussing those results here and on other forums.

Ralph's original Platy appears to have carried two different mutations. One was lesser and the other for lack of a better name has been called "hidden". I did read once about a similar sounding mutation in rats called "dilute". I find it helpful to think of this specific hidden gene as just a very subtle mutation that apparently we can't identify by it's self with the naked eye. We already have examples of very obvious mutations like lesser and not so obvious ones like phantom so why not take it a little further to a nearly or even completely invisible mutation.

It took a while for anyone to figure out why platy X normal didn't produce more platy. But a poster from Taiwan with the handle Hahaman came up with the idea that the hidden mutation might be an allele of lesser - a different mutation of the same gene. Because the lesser could only pass one copy of each gene on it had to pick between lesser and hidden for each offspring and none could get both from the platy. At the time most thought that the 2nd mutation in Platy was recessive and inbreeding was needed to make a platy but now that butter daddy has been made without inbreeding it's sure looking like Hahaman was right.

So platy seems to be just another combo snake in the lesser white snake complex. Most of the combos are what we consider leucistic (mojave + lesser or lesser + phantom) but not all (it's now looking like crystal is a combo of mojave and "special" which is not being shown but appears to be another allele). Interestingly the homozygous phantom isn't very leucistic like but it's still a little surprising that the homozygous hidden is apparently as normal looking as the heterozygous with normal hidden. It's looking like the only effect that hidden has is when combined with another mutation of the same gene to produce the platy or butter daddy or phantom 44. I would not expect the RDR hidden to have any effect on mutations not in the lesser complex. Chemically it would probably be very interesting to know what these different mutations of the same gene are doing and why there are so many different ones (lesser, Mojave, phantom, Vin Russo, mocha, special, hidden, and probably a few others not yet named).

wonderful writeup, really cleared things up for me on the platty! I've sure been wondering what all that business was about :D