Opinions on breeding young / small females

What is your opinion on breeding young females? For example, a female that is 1.5 years and 1100 – 1200 grams.

I know some have had success breeding females this small and hats off to them. Generally speaking 1500 grams is a nice number to start at. People like to push envelopes and I think a lot of people have probably pushed the 1500 gram envelope that seems to be the common number on the site as well as 2 winters old. While yes younger and smaller snakes have been bred successfully I think we have to watch what we say when discussions are in public forums like this. All you need to do is find someone who does not have the proper experience to read their snakes (or thinks they do, but really don't) start searching on the web and see some rediculously light wieght ball python can be bread and they will try it. I know I don't have the experience yet to even think about breeding a female less than 1500 grams, but I did find Jasballs discussion on it facinating.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I know some have had success breeding females this small and hats off to them. Generally speaking 1500 grams is a nice number to start at. People like to push envelopes and I think a lot of people have probably pushed the 1500 gram envelope that seems to be the common number on the site as well as 2 winters old. While yes younger and smaller snakes have been bred successfully I think we have to watch what we say when discussions are in public forums like this. All you need to do is find someone who does not have the proper experience to read their snakes (or thinks they do, but really don't) start searching on the web and see some rediculously light wieght ball python can be bread and they will try it. I know I don't have the experience yet to even think about breeding a female less than 1500 grams, but I did find Jasballs discussion on it facinating.

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From other discussions that I have had, I have came to the conclusion that it will not hurt the female to try to breed her if she is too small or too young. If she is not ready, she will not go. If she is, then she will. No harm done. What are your thoughts?

I have read in several places (I haven't bred anything but rats!) that if a female is too small, she could still get pregnant but would be in great risk of egg-binding which can be fatal.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I have read in several places (I haven't bred anything but rats!) that if a female is too small, she could still get pregnant but would be in great risk of egg-binding which can be fatal.

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I have heard of that also, but have not actually heard of any actual accounts of it happening. I heard it from people that heard it from others, that heard it from others. I wonder if breeding young / small females increases the chance of egg-binding. I have also heard of egg-binding happening to large females too.

Not only do you have to worry about her being big enough to pass the eggs (if she does become gravid) but you also need to consider her weight because females expend a lot of energy and nutrients to develop eggs. The risk of loosing your female and a clutch of eggs is extremely high.

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

Not only do you have to worry about her being big enough to pass the eggs (if she does become gravid) but you also need to consider her weight because females expend a lot of energy and nutrients to develop eggs. The risk of loosing your female and a clutch of eggs is extremely high.

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Good point. Do you think that a smaller female would have smaller eggs and not as many, so would use the same ratio of energy and nutrients as a larger female that lays larger and more eggs?

most smaller snakes will have smaller eggs,larger snakes will have larger eggs.

Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?

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Yes it is.

I personally believe that it is better that most don't have the experiences to share with the rest. Shows restraint and commitment to upholding a higher standard of treatment to the animals that we are claiming to have profound respect for.
I for one will never have the first-hand knowledge of whether a 1 kilo female can successfully breed.
There's always next year.
-Steven

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

From other discussions that I have had, I have came to the conclusion that it will not hurt the female to try to breed her if she is too small or too young. If she is not ready, she will not go. If she is, then she will. No harm done. What are your thoughts?

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I've heard it both ways. From long time breeders on both sides of the coin. Most long time breeders that did discuss the breeding of smaller snakes also made a point of saying "you have to know how to read your animals before trying this." With that said I don't think any first year breeder can read their animals sufficiently enough to make that call.

At this time for my wife and I we decided that when dealing with living animals, particularly considering they are pets as well as breeders, it is best to error more on the side of caution using 1500 Grams as a minimum weight for females. I know some on the site use an even more conservative number of 1800 or more grams.

Additionally I would think smaller babies run more risks than larger ones. Smaller eggs come from smaller females. A beginning breeder would have to be in a really big hurry, kinda like a business deadline, to risk not only the mommy snake, but also the babies.

If a beginner can't just sit back and wait it out the extra year, go get a large enough female to breed as they are forsale. If they can not afford the large normal girl to breed then wait another year. If you can't do one of those things then I have to ask what was that persons reason for getting into Ball Pythons in the first place? Our Ball Pythons are pets first and formost. Would I like to start breeding some of the morph females I have in my collection right now? You bet! Will I? Unfortunately only one Het made weight this year and with any luck we have a pastel female and an Albino female who are just 100 to 200 grams light (when empty) that may get a chance late in the year if everything else is looking good! On a side note we have 3 normal females that we bought at breeding weight, last spring, that are already paired up and messin with the guys! :)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?

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I agree. You never want to endanger your animals with bad husbandry practices.

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Originally Posted by stevenkeogh

I personally believe that it is better that most don't have the experiences to share with the rest. Shows restraint and commitment to upholding a higher standard of treatment to the animals that we are claiming to have profound respect for.
I for one will never have the first-hand knowledge of whether a 1 kilo female can successfully breed.
There's always next year.
-Steven

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I thought that forums were here for discussion. I am trying to discuss with fellow herpers to find out if breeding small / young females is harmful or not.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I've heard it both ways. From long time breeders on both sides of the coin. Most long time breeders that did discuss the breeding of smaller snakes also made a point of saying "you have to know how to read your animals before trying this." With that said I don't think any first year breeder can read their animals sufficiently enough to make that call.

At this time for my wife and I we decided that when dealing with living animals, particularly considering they are pets as well as breeders, it is best to error more on the side of caution using 1500 Grams as a minimum weight for females. I know some on the site use an even more conservative number of 1800 or more grams.

Additionally I would think smaller babies run more risks than larger ones. Smaller eggs come from smaller females. A beginning breeder would have to be in a really big hurry, kinda like a business deadline, to risk not only the mommy snake, but also the babies.

If a beginner can't just sit back and wait it out the extra year, go get a large enough female to breed as they are forsale. If they can not afford the large normal girl to breed then wait another year. If you can't do one of those things then I have to ask what was that persons reason for getting into Ball Pythons in the first place? Our Ball Pythons are pets first and formost. Would I like to start breeding some of the morph females I have in my collection right now? You bet! Will I? Unfortunately only one Het made weight this year and with any luck we have a pastel female and an Albino female who are just 100 to 200 grams light (when empty) that may get a chance late in the year if everything else is looking good! On a side note we have 3 normal females that we bought at breeding weight, last spring, that are already paired up and messin with the guys! :)

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All very good points. And good luck with your pairings. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

All very good points. And good luck with your pairings. :gj:

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Thanks, and good luck with your projects as well!

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I thought that forums were here for discussion. I am trying to discuss with fellow herpers to find out if breeding small / young females is harmful or not.

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And my post was a reply to the one stating that they thought it was a shame that the people with the first-hand experience to share were not here to do so.
Maybe, but it is much better than having multitudes of individuals possibly putting snakes in jeopardy by breeding them under weight.
If this is a discussion then why is the validity of my post being questioned?
You wanted opinions, there is mine.
If you are just looking for reassurance when breeding young females then maybe you should have posted something along those lines.
-Steven

If there was absolutely no danger I'm pretty confident that there would be no 1500g guideline.
I should clarify, the 1500g rule is the consensus up here in Canada.
Seems that the forums frequented by mostly Americans prefer 1200g.
They are your animals, nobody is going to be able to stop you from endangering any of them. So I hope for your success.
-Steven

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

From other discussions that I have had, I have came to the conclusion that it will not hurt the female to try to breed her if she is too small or too young. If she is not ready, she will not go. If she is, then she will. No harm done. What are your thoughts?

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I feel the same way but still needs to be atleast 1200 in my opinion or very close to it

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?

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Yep!

Here is another thought.

If the female is bred under 1500g, wouldn't the eggs be smaller and also make it much harder to raise up the hatchlings? Or would they still be large eggs and just be less of them? :confused:

To each their own I guess. I'd stick with the 1500g minimum, but everyone has the right to their own judgement and opinion. :)

Well, here's me sticking my big head back into the mess. We had eggs come from our girl that wasn't up to the "magic" weight of 1500, and she gave us 4 very nice eggs, but they were also all around 100 grams when we weighed them. I don't want to say they weighed 100 grams coming out, because if I have it right we didn't weigh right away, so they very well could have put on some grams inbetween the time they were laid and we weighed them. (Egg's breathe, they absorb and release water weight every day, and they lose quite a bit as they get closer to hatching.)

Now this isn't to say that a small female won't have physically small eggs, but I rather expect her to have less eggs. I'm not sure how true all of this is in regards to the whole, it's just what happened in our situation.

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

I personally think that age is more important then size. I feel comfortable breeding anything over 3 years of age no matter what size they are. If they don't want to lay eggs, they don't

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

Thanks, and good luck with your projects as well!

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Thank you! :)

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Originally Posted by stevenkeogh

If there was absolutely no danger I'm pretty confident that there would be no 1500g guideline.
I should clarify, the 1500g rule is the consensus up here in Canada.
Seems that the forums frequented by mostly Americans prefer 1200g.
They are your animals, nobody is going to be able to stop you from endangering any of them. So I hope for your success.
-Steven

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I'm sorry. I must have mis-read your original post. I thought you were saying that I should not have posted this discussion, because I was somehow mistreating my animals by breeding them young / small, and condoning others to mistreat their animals. If that is not the case, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Adam,
Thank you very much for you insight into this, and great post. This is the post that I was looking for. I know a lot of people say dont' breed them young / small, but they have never tried. I am very glad that a professional could chime in with personal experience.

Thanks again,

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Originally Posted by Vibrant Balls

Here is another thought.

If the female is bred under 1500g, wouldn't the eggs be smaller and also make it much harder to raise up the hatchlings? Or would they still be large eggs and just be less of them? :confused:

To each their own I guess. I'd stick with the 1500g minimum, but everyone has the right to their own judgement and opinion. :)

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I don't think this is the case. The reason I say this is because I had two sets of twins this season. Each twin was half the size of all of their single-egg clutch mates. I had no problem getting them to eat, and they are all four doing just fine. Actually I held back the twin spider females, and neither has missed a meal to this day.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Adam I agree with you 100% and I don't think that could have been said any better:gj::gj:

Good luck this year with your projects also Adam and have a safe and happy holiday :)

at what point does age come into play? if you have a girl in her 3rd winter @ 800-900 grams do you wait go for it and what if she is only 1100-1200 in her 4th?

if you look at people grown women that have perfectly healthy babies and no problem with child birth range from our little people of 3ft to women of 7ft+ and all most likely will birth a avg size new born baby.

are there the little bps? we have seen the giants

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

at what point does age come into play? if you have a girl in her 3rd winter @ 800-900 grams do you wait go for it and what if she is only 1100-1200 in her 4th?

if you look at people grown women that have perfectly healthy babies and no problem with child birth range from our little people of 3ft to women of 7ft+ and all most likely will birth a avg size new born baby.

are there the little bps? we have seen the giants

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A very good point there boss.....

If there is a high risk, I just won't take it.
When I do breed, I will not breed until it hits 1500+ grams or is 3 years old.

Ok, So I have a question for readers of this thread/forum

I have to temporarily house two of my snakes together while I order heat tape and build an enclosure for them as well as other snakes coming in. I have a full grown 5' and over 1500 gram male, a 2.5' young male, and a 2' young female. The female i'm estimating is about 500 grams. I am going to house the two in a 100 gallon tank with 4 hides- two on each side of the temperature gradient. They have all been near each other, and quarantined adequately.
I'm worried that if I stick my female and the young male in the cage together, that they would attempt to breed- and possibly jeopardize the female's life if she becomes egg-bound. I'm not even sure if she's capable of breeding yet- nor the male for that reason. I dont want to stick the big one in with the others, because i'm worried about size problems.
It's only temporary, a few weeks at most.

What should I do?
thanks

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Originally Posted by hobbyist

Ok, So I have a question for readers of this thread/forum

I have to temporarily house two of my snakes together while I order heat tape and build an enclosure for them as well as other snakes coming in. I have a full grown 5' and over 1500 gram male, a 2.5' young male, and a 2' young female. The female i'm estimating is about 500 grams. I am going to house the two in a 100 gallon tank with 4 hides- two on each side of the temperature gradient. They have all been near each other, and quarantined adequately.
I'm worried that if I stick my female and the young male in the cage together, that they would attempt to breed- and possibly jeopardize the female's life if she becomes egg-bound. I'm not even sure if she's capable of breeding yet- nor the male for that reason. I dont want to stick the big one in with the others, because i'm worried about size problems.
It's only temporary, a few weeks at most.

What should I do?
thanks

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no if the female is not ready she won't lift her tail & breed,no folicals no eggs to be fertilize & bind.

I started gathering in 06'ish I did get one that was an 05. My females are now roughly 1600+ grams and ready they weren't last year and waiting for a good end result is much more satisfying than rushing and killing your snake (in my opinion).

If you can't get a clutch THIS year due to a small female buy a regular full size female a few years older and a chance hey it's better than killing a small snake. Not to mention most simply won't breed.

i always, and will continue to always wait till the female is over 1500 grams to be on the safe side, my the females breeding right now are over 1500 grams...

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Originally Posted by hobbyist

Ok, So I have a question for readers of this thread/forum

I have to temporarily house two of my snakes together while I order heat tape and build an enclosure for them as well as other snakes coming in. I have a full grown 5' and over 1500 gram male, a 2.5' young male, and a 2' young female. The female i'm estimating is about 500 grams. I am going to house the two in a 100 gallon tank with 4 hides- two on each side of the temperature gradient. They have all been near each other, and quarantined adequately.
I'm worried that if I stick my female and the young male in the cage together, that they would attempt to breed- and possibly jeopardize the female's life if she becomes egg-bound. I'm not even sure if she's capable of breeding yet- nor the male for that reason. I dont want to stick the big one in with the others, because i'm worried about size problems.
It's only temporary, a few weeks at most.

What should I do?
thanks

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For around $75.00 + the T-stat (which you probably already have for the 100 gallon tank.) you can build a nice 32qt 3 tub rack. Price includes flex watt and tubs. As a general rule for building buget racks I put the price down as $25 per level + the overall cost of the T-stat, but if you go less than 3 levels the cost overall goes down, but the cost per level goes up and vise versa if you go taller. If I put my mind to it I can easily build one on a day off. At this point no reason exists to do what you are intending to do since you already have some kind of seperation due to quarantine that you can keep up for another week or two while you build the rack.

On the other hand if you do have to do it you should be OK as far as actual breeding possibly taking place since the female will not cooperate. The only additional issue I see here is you will have 2 males and 1 female in an enclosure if I am reading it correctly. I'm not sure if this may cause some fighting between the males as part of the mating ritual. I have never personally put two males together in one enclosure and do not really have any intention of trying.

my thoughts on the size is if shes ready she will go, if not she will not. but with my animals i wait till i know her weight is up and if i feel she can handle it, im thinking weights of around 1300g and up. by that size they typically are big enough to breed but remember that a snake could be 1500 g but not have a good fat reserve and may not be a good idea to breed as she will have trouble with the fasting. if any of my snakes miss meals and or goes off feed and depends how long i take her out my breeding plans, unless she begines to eat again. so far so good i got some females from 1350g to 3500 g breeding this season but they are still pounding food back with no problems so im sure the smaller ones will put on weight in 2 or 3 months of feeding before they go off feed for the lay. but typiccaly after laying females become rat heads (crack heads) lol and start eating like theres no tomorrow.. well thats my thought on the topic feel free to comment..:snake:

Ya,

I am one of those who fall under the cautious heading.

My preference is to postpone breeding until the female is 1800 - 2000grams minimum.

Not a huge number of years behind me in the B.P. breeding, however, many with regards to the corn snake.

Again I prefer to wait until the corn female is around 500 gram.

Although the ever quoted mantra jumps to mind " All the 3's" - i.e. 3 foot length, 3 years old & 300 grams

I consider the age of the animal to be relevant as I feel the 3 years allows for the individual to, not only, sexually mature, but, also, mentally mature.

The other words of wisdom are quite optimistic as a 300 gram female corn is not a large animal.

One previous poster suggested that to wait another year is not a bad thing in a Breeding Programme & I agree with this statement.

A larger female, whatever the species, should provide a larger clutch of eggs & that is definately worth the wait.

I would stress, however, that each indivdual will make up his/her own mind as to the time to breed a female B.P.

There is a risk inherent with any breeding be it animal or human.

Lex

I would rather wait till shes at least 2-3 years and 1500+ grams. I think, whats the hurry? If you are in it for the hobby then it will be worth the wait then you know you have a nice healthy mature female who will give you a nice healthy clutch of eggs that will hopefully hatch some good sized healthy babies. Sounds like more fun that way then breeding to small and then worrying about the female. I dont power feed for the same reason. I want my girls big and muscular and in perfect shape to have babies, not fat from over feeding just so they look big. Each one of my girls is a pet not just for breedng and Id feel awful if one got sick becuase i bred her to soon.

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Originally Posted by Kryptonian

I would rather wait till shes at least 2-3 years and 1500+ grams. I think, whats the hurry? If you are in it for the hobby then it will be worth the wait then you know you have a nice healthy mature female who will give you a nice healthy clutch of eggs that will hopefully hatch some good sized healthy babies. Sounds like more fun that way then breeding to small and then worrying about the female. I dont power feed for the same reason. I want my girls big and muscular and in perfect shape to have babies, not fat from over feeding just so they look big. Each one of my girls is a pet not just for breedng and Id feel awful if one got sick becuase i bred her to soon.

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The big hurry is creating a new morph that I do not have, and also producing morphs to sell. For example, this year I have a pastel het ghost female that is approximately 1200 grams and 1.5 years old. I also have a pastel ghost to breed to her. Some people would wait to breed her until the following year. I decided to breed her this year. If she goes for me, then I could possibly produce super pastel ghosts this season as opposed to waiting until next season. I am also in the same boat with a het pied female and a pied male. If she goes for me, then I could produce pieds this season. I do not feel that it in any way harms the females. So why wait? In my opinion, if the females are ready, then they will give me eggs. If they are not, then they will not.

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

if you look at people grown women that have perfectly healthy babies and no problem with child birth range from our little people of 3ft to women of 7ft+ and all most likely will birth a avg size new born baby.

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Please please please do not compare human fertility to ball python fertility. Humans being primates we are by definition mammals and therefore don't lay eggs. This makes our reproduction different enough that I think any comparison is going to be pointless.

That being said woman die during child birth all the time and many many more would if not for expert medical care. Extremely young women as well as extremely old woman (over 35, sorry ladies) put themselves and there unborn children at greater risk. Weight also plays a huge role in woman's fertility.

I am not making any judgment calls here at all. I just think you have to ask yourself why you are doing what you are doing and see how you feel about it.

Personally I would not breed a female BP until her 3rd breeding season and only after she was over 1500 grams. I base this solely on the prevailing wisdom of books I have read and sites like this. I am not in the habit of rolling the dice with my animals health and well being.

I'd breed them if it was breeding season and the snake was 1500g or larger, regardless of age. And if a snake was 2 years old. plump, but short and was only 1200g, I'd breed her.

One other point that I don't think has been mentioned is the shape of an individual snake. Some of my girls are fairly short for their weight and age, good solid looking girls, whilst the one morph girl that I was wanting to breed from in order to get a nice combo morph is of course not like that :colbert: No she is going to be a really big girl as she is l-o-n-g and slim. This being the case I have decided :( not to breed her until she is 1750 grams or more. As has been said by others, my snakes are my pets and I will just have to behave myself and think of her welfare more than my impatience !!!! :sigh2:

Whilst typing this someone has made the same point about shape...

Haha, yeah. It is more about the shape and size. I remember hearing that 500g times each foot of their body length is a good way to figure out if they are safe to breed. So if your snake is 2~3 foot you could probably safely breed under 1500g, but if you have a 5' female you should probably not breed her at 1500g.

I have had it happen wit hno problem but the female in question was only 1300 grams. IT was also an unplanned event since i had to treat the room for mite and only had her and cage mate about 3 weeks. I was possible she was already gravid when I got them. I had ot treat the entire colelction for mites cause I had some on some cloths and they migrated into the snake room on me ( I used my bedroom as aqt room cause lack of proper space for a qt room)and had to do cage cleaning that mornig and a mite was on my cloths which causea population explosion in the snake room and I had to place all the snake inpillow cases and in the same room.

anyhow there are a lot of possible issues that can show up during the time she carrying the eggs and after she lays them. it hard, egg binding is one of the major ones. I also had the snake adopted out befoer she laid and the guy was waiting for her to drop to pick her up, I only let her go after she ate 3 times since i took the eggs and used an incubator.

I didn't read the 5 pages of this thread, just chiming in.
My experience has been this.
I breed 2 year old females all the time with success that are around the 1500g mark and are "stout".
I have never had good success breeding 2 year old females that are 1200g mark or are not "stout".
-d

Without reading all the prevous posts...

I have produced from 1100g females before, had nice hatchlings... And still regretted it. Reason: I feed her back up really hood and if I'm lucky she get up to 1300-1400g for the next season. So I get another tiny clutch from her. The same goes for the next season.

Point is that I have jumped the gun and now I'll fall behind in the long run as the bigger girls are giving normal and large clutches.


Justin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

Without reading all the prevous posts...

I have produced from 1100g females before, had nice hatchlings... And still regretted it. Reason: I feed her back up really hood and if I'm lucky she get up to 1300-1400g for the next season. So I get another tiny clutch from her. The same goes for the next season.

Point is that I have jumped the gun and now I'll fall behind in the long run as the bigger girls are giving normal and large clutches.


Justin

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Hi Justin, thanks for you insight. From my understanding, what you described seems to be the consensus. Breeding smaller females can be done, but may not be the best in the long run not because their health but because it will take longer for them to start laying large clutches.

I shoot for the 40 inch mark with my up and coming females. If they don't make it, they get another year.