Riddle me this you financially gifted types

If the economy is in trouble because of credit, people spending more than they make, how is it good to loan them more?

If I purchased my home by getting a loan, then purchased a car by getting a loan, then remodeled my home by getting another loan, none of which I can make the payments on, how does it assist me to make me another loan to make payments on the loans I already can't afford?

Wouldn't it make sense, I won't say more because the above doesn't make any to me, to sell off, regroup, live with parents or family or friends, take the bus or bike or walk, to get out from under that debt?

Isn't what the government is proposing, that banks start making loans again, the opposite of what we really need?

Does America need credit or jobs that will pay a wage sufficient to support its citizens?

I'm not talking the 90.00 an hour the average auto worker costs the company (benefits, insurance, retirement, union fees, etc.) since they only see about 30.00 an hour of that on paychecks, using very round numbers, but maybe that 30.00 an hour and that's it.

Maybe for the next few years, maybe forever, if a person worked for a wage that could support them but had no benefits post employment, maybe then the economy would turn around.

Of course it would be unfair to people who had pensions and such, but if your choice is to work for a good wage with no post employment benefits or not to work at all, doesn't it make sense to work?

I seem to have digressed.

How is giving more credit going to help?

IF we took that 700 billion and divided it up among every citizen in the USA, all 300 million of them, each person would receive 23 million dollars.

Do you suppose a few of us could pay all our debts with that?

Why not do that?

Or am I completely off?

IF we took that 700 billion and divided it up among every citizen in the USA, all 300 million of them, each person would receive 23 million dollars.

Do you suppose a few of us could pay all our debts with that?

Why not do that?

Or am I completely off?

I agree with that! I don't think your off at all. Give the $$$$ to the people who need it not the banks. They are going to have to turn around and pay the banks with it anyway. So the bank still gets theirs and Joe Blow gets to keep his cars, house, etc. I've heard other people talk about this too. Sounds good in theory ;)

Because since when did the people.... Raining money out of their bums for corrupt business ventures.... Ever actually make sense in what they were doing while creating such a storm?


Who would, in their right mind give the companies that created this mess.... MORE MONEY to do the same thing all over again? Are people honestly that blind? Ugh.

For the same reason the stimulus checks didn't help.

Bailing out the banks, will allow banks to give loans again. People will spend money (even money they don't have) and help boost the economy.

Giving people money would do a lovely job of stimulating economy. Just not ours.

Toyota cars....Mitsubishi TV's....Chinese toys. Think about it. What did you spend your stimulus check on?

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Originally Posted by Soterios

For the same reason the stimulus checks didn't help.

Bailing out the banks, will allow banks to give loans again. People will spend money (even money they don't have) and help boost the economy.

Giving people money would do a lovely job of stimulating economy. Just not ours.

Toyota cars....Mitsubishi TV's....Chinese toys. Think about it. What did you spend your stimulus check on?

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Makes no difference what it was spent on, it simply wasn't enough. 600 bucks don't buy much.

Now admittedly 23 mil is a bit much, but if it were even 2 million for the average American, that would buy the house, pay off both cars, put at least one kid through college paid in full, and have money to retire on.

Almost every cent would go back into the economy to purchase and OWN what we now borrow to rent.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Makes no difference what it was spent on, it simply wasn't enough. 600 bucks don't buy much.

Now admittedly 23 mil is a bit much, but if it were even 2 million for the average American, that would buy the house, pay off both cars, put at least one kid through college paid in full, and have money to retire on.

Almost every cent would go back into the economy to purchase and OWN what we now borrow to rent.

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Where do you all think this magic money is coming from?

Are you all seriously die hard socialists? If you haven't figured it out by now. You're all asking for communism. Everyone get the same amount? That's a great way to take away incentive to do better.

Besides the Bailout I would like to know about the 2.3 trillion dollars that went missing from the Pentagon the day before 911


Has anyone here ever watched America Freedom to Fascism? You can check it out on Google it's very interesting.

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Originally Posted by Serpents_Den

Besides the Bailout I would like to know about the 2.3 trillion dollars that went missing from the Pentagon the day before 911


Has anyone here ever watched America Freedom to Fascism? You can check it out on Google it's very interesting.

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Have any credible sources or evidence to back that up?

Oh boy here we go with the conspiracy theories...

I've seen 9/11 bring out the creativity in people first hand. The creativity of consiracy theories that came from that single day is astonishing. One of the more popular ones is the one stated above (this one was actually very popular in 2002-2005):

2.3T Dollars stolen from the Pentagon the day before 9/11! OH noes!
(People actually made accusations that the money was given to the Bin-Laden group.)

Ask yourself if you have 2.3T dollars would you keep it hidden in an office building? The Pentagon is a very secure location but it IS a publicly accessible building and they even conduct minimum security tour guides there on a daily basis.

The US federal government is actively the major player in the US bank business, owning more federal banks than any other major bank in the US.

WHY in the world would they stash TRILLIONS of dollars in an office building owning some of the most secure banks in the nation not to mention Fort Knox?!

I have no "proof" to prove that that never happened, but whoever feeds you this info doesn't have any information to back up that event ever took place either.



Back On Topic:

I'm sorry I steered this into the ground. I would certainly agree it makes more sense to give people a reasonable amount of money and be able to pay off whatever they owe and now... "own"! But considering how politically tied banks and the US government are that will likely never happen. I bet my life they'd rather just buy out every bank in America before giving us anything like that mainly because of the control needed to make sure money isn't just laundered into some other purpose, and again political motivation. :colbert:

Sorry for steering this off topic, enjoy your day! :)

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Originally Posted by wilomn

IF we took that 700 billion and divided it up among every citizen in the USA, all 300 million of them, each person would receive 23 million dollars.

Do you suppose a few of us could pay all our debts with that?

Why not do that?

Or am I completely off?

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$700,000,000,000.00 to 300,000,000 people is only $2,333.33 per person.

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Originally Posted by Soterios

Have any credible sources or evidence to back that up?

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There is plenty of credible information you can find online. The US Government can track down and find the source where mad cow disease originated in days but they can't find Bin Laden hiding out and in a cave c'mon. If people heard on the news it was snowing in the middle of August in South Florida they would believe it. Where is the Weapons of mass destruction that Iraq had? Now were trying to go into Iran? It's all a lie and people like you believe it. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but I ill say if you don't believe it at least look into it from the other side. This country is being attacked from within and Colin Powell & Joe Biden publically said we shall expect a makor attack within the US soon after Obama is in office YouTube - Powell and Biden Predict Attack in 2009

I personally thought it was interesting that, when confronted about the fact that Al Quida only really became a confrontational force against us AFTER we invaded Iraq, the only thing Bush had to say was "So what?"

Albeit he's not going to be in charge much longer. But still. These are humans We The People are voting to represent and run us. They don't make much sense do they?

I think that was offtopic though, sorry.

It makes more sense to the gov't to continue keeping Americans in their pockets by allowing the banks to issue more loans to cover our old ones. That way, we still have to pay them off, just, instead of paying off four or five different companies, we're only paying the one loan. Ultimately, they're still controlling our money while making us feel more secure.

PS: That video, with the explosions and the popping up of the text, kind of freaked me out LOL

Yes, it sucks that the the gov't is coming to the rescue to the corporations and banks who were greedy, didn't look ahead, lacked foresight, etc.

But what would happen if the gov't stood back and said too bad, let the economy run it's course and we'll see what happens? I don't think the fallout would bode too well for the country. It would have a cascade effect that could cause the local and global enconomy to crumble.

I'm not real political, and I definitely am not an economist, but I think that this bailout is better than letting the situation self-correct.

Also, like someone said, the 700 billion is only just over $2000 per person, and if I remember the gov't already tried doing something like that called the economic stimulus package. And yet the economy is still going down the tubes.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned they'd work if they had 23 mill, I think 70% of our workforce would just quit completely in turn shutting down our economy. The reality is most if not all jobs are essential we need all classes for our system to work.

If there are a million millions in a billion then my math was correct, it's 2.3 million per person.

If you had that money I suspect two things would happen. First, you'd pay off ALL your debts. Then you'd spend.

So what if you quit your job, you're not going to stop spending. Even people with more money than they'll ever need work, they just do what they want instead of what they have to in order to make ends meet.

People would have to learn how to live debt free, how not to be sweating all those payments. Hell, do away with credit entirely. If you can't afford it, don't get it. If everyone had a base, a pad, something to fall back on, would credit even be needed?

Screw the banks. They've screwed us long enough.

Did you know that Bank of America will now give undocumented aliens not only bank accounts but credit cards? In search of Profit they endanger all of us.

Anyway, I was just wondering.

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Originally Posted by Serpents_Den

There is plenty of credible information you can find online. The US Government can track down and find the source where mad cow disease originated in days but they can't find Bin Laden hiding out and in a cave c'mon. If people heard on the news it was snowing in the middle of August in South Florida they would believe it. Where is the Weapons of mass destruction that Iraq had? Now were trying to go into Iran? It's all a lie and people like you believe it. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but I ill say if you don't believe it at least look into it from the other side. This country is being attacked from within and Colin Powell & Joe Biden publically said we shall expect a makor attack within the US soon after Obama is in office

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You're grasping at straws, at best. You still haven't provided any real proof. Don't just blindly follow rumors.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If there are a million millions in a billion then my math was correct, it's 2.3 million per person.

If you had that money I suspect two things would happen. First, you'd pay off ALL your debts. Then you'd spend.

So what if you quit your job, you're not going to stop spending. Even people with more money than they'll ever need work, they just do what they want instead of what they have to in order to make ends meet.

People would have to learn how to live debt free, how not to be sweating all those payments. Hell, do away with credit entirely. If you can't afford it, don't get it. If everyone had a base, a pad, something to fall back on, would credit even be needed?

Screw the banks. They've screwed us long enough.

Did you know that Bank of America will now give undocumented aliens not only bank accounts but credit cards? In search of Profit they endanger all of us.

Anyway, I was just wondering.

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If the American public was as responsible as you make them out to be in your post, the country wouldn't be in this mess. Giving irresponsible people money will make things worse. Look what happens to poor people who win the lottery. They're poor again within the year.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If there are a million millions in a billion then my math was correct, it's 2.3 million per person.

If you had that money I suspect two things would happen. First, you'd pay off ALL your debts. Then you'd spend.

So what if you quit your job, you're not going to stop spending. Even people with more money than they'll ever need work, they just do what they want instead of what they have to in order to make ends meet.

People would have to learn how to live debt free, how not to be sweating all those payments. Hell, do away with credit entirely. If you can't afford it, don't get it. If everyone had a base, a pad, something to fall back on, would credit even be needed?

Screw the banks. They've screwed us long enough.

Did you know that Bank of America will now give undocumented aliens not only bank accounts but credit cards? In search of Profit they endanger all of us.

Anyway, I was just wondering.

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first of all, no it's only $2,333.33 (get out a calculator)

second of all, say it is 23 million....if everyone had $23m, and everyone quit their job, then no, they would not keep buying stuff...because there would be nothing to buy! How are you going to buy a new car or a new house when the people who make that car and house have quit their job?

Then we have an issue of inflation. That new car that cost $20,000 would cost close to a million, then if everyone quit their job and production stopped, supply would go way down as demand increases, meaning that Ford Escort could cost upwards of that $23 million you just got from the government.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If there are a million millions in a billion then my math was correct, it's 2.3 million per person.

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Your initial premise is wrong. There aren't a million millions in a billion. There are a thousand millions in a billion. ;)

And I do believe handing out wild sums of money to every individual in the country would be just as destructive to the economy and social life as we know it as would be taking away everyone's money.

Think about it. Imagine yourself living in a destitute third-world country where money is scarce. Those people can look around and think, "Man, if the government would just give every person $1000, we'd all be rich and comfortable!" But look at America...virtually every single person can claim to have had, does have, or be able to obtain $1000. But do we feel rich because of it? Heck no.

Another thought: How many multi-millionaires are actually in debt up to their eyeballs??? Having money doesn't mean you don't want more...no matter how much you have. How many huge lottery winners ruin their lives because they don't know how to handle money? Now multiply that by millions of people.

And Emilio brought up an excellent point...how many people would actually be willing to go to work if they suddenly found themselves multi-millionaires? No garbage pick-up....no janitors....no 911 operators....darned few cops and firemen and paramedics.....nurses....lots of doctors bailing....electrical techs who keep our power running.....and on and on.

Wes, if you handed out 2.3 million dollars to each of 300 million people in the US, everyone's buying power is increased at the same rate, and sure, they might be able to pay off their existing debts, but the long term result will be hyper-inflation of everything that we normally buy.

Do you think wages would automatically adjust as inflation skyrockets? Throwing that kind of handout would be economic suicide.

Cars for $500,000 a piece, a whopper meal for $25,000....you get the picture.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

first of all, no it's only $2,333.33 (get out a calculator)

second of all, say it is 23 million....if everyone had $23m, and everyone quit their job, then no, they would not keep buying stuff...because there would be nothing to buy! How are you going to buy a new car or a new house when the people who make that car and house have quit their job?

Then we have an issue of inflation. That new car that cost $20,000 would cost close to a million, then if everyone quit their job and production stopped, supply would go way down as demand increases, meaning that Ford Escort could cost upwards of that $23 million you just got from the government.

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I wouldnt quit my job....

If everyone all of a sudden got 23 million, do you think that prices wouldnt go up to try to get as much out of people as they can? Suddenly a 20K car, would be a 200K car...... I have no doubts the costs of things WOULD go up if everyone were suddenly 23M richer.... even 2.3 million.....

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Originally Posted by SRW Reptiles

$700,000,000,000.00 to 300,000,000 people is only $2,333.33 per person.

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Its sad it took a full page of posts for someone to finally point out correct math....... More education is needed in this country minus the teachers union and left wing socialist propaganda in the school system.

No easy answers, hang onto your paints as its not going to get any easier anytime soon and I'm guessing its going to be much longer than most are expecting.... My house in fl will be worth what I owe on it around 2015, fingers crossed:D

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Originally Posted by neilgolli

Its sad it took a full page of posts for someone to finally point out correct math....... More education is needed in this country minus the teachers union and left wing socialist propaganda in the school system.

No easy answers, hang onto your paints as its not going to get any easier anytime soon and I'm guessing its going to be much longer than most are expecting.... My house in fl will be worth what I owe on it around 2015, fingers crossed:D

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Some of us aren't interested (so much) in political rantings and debates...I figured someone else would see it.:salute:

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Originally Posted by Soterios

You're grasping at straws, at best. You still haven't provided any real proof. Don't just blindly follow rumors.



If the American public was as responsible as you make them out to be in your post, the country wouldn't be in this mess. Giving irresponsible people money will make things worse. Look what happens to poor people who win the lottery. They're poor again within the year.

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Someone finally hit it on the nail. Now, I DO NOT support the bailouts at all. My question to y'all is this: Where's the blame on these people who were buying houses well beyond their means? If they were STUPID enough to buy into these things, then they deserved to fall. "Oooh, the big, bad banks! OH my goodness! Ooooh, the big, bad Realtors, Oooooh!" Get a bite of reality, please. Persuasive or not, these people are adults and they made poor decisions which forced them into poor positions in life. That's like saying that it's all the drug dealer's fault that a kid overdosed. The drug dealer may have been pressuring the kid, but the kid still bought it and the kid was negligent of his/her life. Same with the adults.

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Originally Posted by neilgolli

Its sad it took a full page of posts for someone to finally point out correct math....... More education is needed in this country minus the teachers union and left wing socialist propaganda in the school system.

No easy answers, hang onto your paints as its not going to get any easier anytime soon and I'm guessing its going to be much longer than most are expecting.... My house in fl will be worth what I owe on it around 2015, fingers crossed:D

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I'm not sure if I have any paint, but I definitely have pants! ^_^ Thank you, though!

Heres the underlying problem. Its one that has grown and swelled and compounded over decades.

I'll lay it out for you. Years and Years ago people paid for what they wanted. Need a house you work save money and build a house, need a car you work save money and buy a car.

Then this wonderful thing called credit came about. Manufacturers then started to say " Well if people aren't going to have to worry about paying for stuff out right then I down have to worry about pricing things so that people can afford them." Wages went up benefits got better and people just kept burrowing. now fast froward 60 years. Everybody is so over extended and the ice is spread so thin that the least little crack is becomes a huge issue.

Now lets look at some thing else the average car today cost 15,000.00 and most people pay then off in 4-5 years at a monthly payment of 300.00.
Now take a 150,000.00 house over 30 years you pay 700-900 dollars not including insurance and all the other BS with interest your paying 324,000 dollars for a 150,000.00 house. If Banks would allow the same interest rates on cars as they do houses you could buy a 150,000 house for 454.00 a month or double that payment to match the current mortgage rate you could pay off a 1500,000 house in 15 years or afford a 300,000 house.

The problem is banks got greedy, people got scared and the market went to pot.

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

I wouldnt quit my job....

If everyone all of a sudden got 23 million, do you think that prices wouldnt go up to try to get as much out of people as they can? Suddenly a 20K car, would be a 200K car...... I have no doubts the costs of things WOULD go up if everyone were suddenly 23M richer.... even 2.3 million.....

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I guess I never thought of it that way....if everyone has a lot of money, prices go up, then everyone quits their job, prices go up even more, then people suddenly can't afford everything anymore, people go out and get their jobs back, and everyone is right where they started, in the same mess, only with $23million that can't buy diddly squat anymore because inflation is so high...man I love economics

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Originally Posted by Melicious

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Someone finally hit it on the nail. Now, I DO NOT support the bailouts at all. My question to y'all is this: Where's the blame on these people who were buying houses well beyond their means? If they were STUPID enough to buy into these things, then they deserved to fall. "Oooh, the big, bad banks! OH my goodness! Ooooh, the big, bad Realtors, Oooooh!" Get a bite of reality, please. Persuasive or not, these people are adults and they made poor decisions which forced them into poor positions in life. That's like saying that it's all the drug dealer's fault that a kid overdosed. The drug dealer may have been pressuring the kid, but the kid still bought it and the kid was negligent of his/her life. Same with the adults.

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The problem with this line of reasoning regarding the bank bailouts is that we're not just talking about bailing out a few individuals....we're talking about bailing out the entire US economy, which affects not just hundreds of millions of US citizens, but also vast global economies.

Yes...there are a number of individuals to blame, I believe, for what happened in the banking world. (Bankers and government officials, both) And I sincerely believe those individuals should somehow be held accountable for their choices. But bailing out the banks is not about them. If the government were to allow their actions to continue without correction, the fall-out would not just affect those individuals....but millions and millions of people...most likely including you and me and just about everyone reading this thread.

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Originally Posted by JLC

The problem with this line of reasoning regarding the bank bailouts is that we're not just talking about bailing out a few individuals....we're talking about bailing out the entire US economy, which affects not just hundreds of millions of US citizens, but also vast global economies.

Yes...there are a number of individuals to blame, I believe, for what happened in the banking world. (Bankers and government officials, both) And I sincerely believe those individuals should somehow be held accountable for their choices. But bailing out the banks is not about them. If the government were to allow their actions to continue without correction, the fall-out would not just affect those individuals....but millions and millions of people...most likely including you and me and just about everyone reading this thread.

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I HATE the bailout as its against what capitalism is, what our country is fundamentally built on. HOWEVER if our banking system fails we all fail. I think, and say that lightly, would rather we barrow the money from China at almost zero interest (look at the treasure bills, we are getting money nearly for free) rather than having China buy our banks.

The auto industry on the other hand should be left to rot unfortunately. Its not going to work, it will be bad money after bad money. The auto suppliers are going to fail and thus force the big three to go down with them. Like I said, no easy answers, LONG road ahead. Start raising your chickens and growing a garden;)

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Originally Posted by neilgolli

I HATE the bailout as its against what capitalism is, what our country is fundamentally built on. HOWEVER if our banking system fails we all fail. I think, and say that lightly, would rather we barrow the money from China at almost zero interest (look at the treasure bills, we are getting money nearly for free) rather than having China buy our banks.

The auto industry on the other hand should be left to rot unfortunately. Its not going to work, it will be bad money after bad money. The auto suppliers are going to fail and thus force the big three to go down with them. Like I said, no easy answers, LONG road ahead. Start raising your chickens and growing a garden;)

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That's pretty much exactly how I see it. None of it is "nice" or "good"....but to do otherwise (regarding the banks) is to invite disaster.

The auto industry, while it affects thousands, is nowhere near as critical to the overall economy. They've screwed themselves before, and had to deal with it, and in the past have ended up with better products because of it. They'll get over this one without the government "helping" them....and the more "help" they receive, the longer it will take them to actually learn anything or improve anything.

Even with my screwed up math, I never reached 23 million.

Snake people, it's 2.3 million, or would be were there more millions in a billion.

For those of you out there who are just smartasses, I did use a calculator. However, math has never been my strong suit, especially when you start lining up lots of zeros.

My premise though, is unchanged.

Let the people decide what to do. Why bailout companies that have proven they cannot be made profitable?

Cops and doctors and even garbage collectors, many of them do those jobs because they want to, not for the paycheck.

Also, I never said it was perfect, what I said was, why toss good money after bad? Why not give it to the people who will lose homes and jobs and their very lives and then let THEM be responsible for themselves?

Would you rather stay in the same downward spiral or give EVERYONE the same opportunity, start EVERYONE at the same spot, and let THEM decide what's going to happen.

If no one was in fear of losing all they have, what would they do? Maybe help others less fortunate? Maybe take a chance on being happy? Maybe just hole up and watch the world go by.

If Americans had no debt, what would we be capable of? If we didn't sweat it out day after day making money to pay interest on loans, what could happen?

Sure, some dopes would blow it all. Where would they blow it? They'd be buying things. Who would be selling those things? Where would those things being sold come from?

Suppose, and I know this is far fetched, some people who actually cared about others and this very globe upon which we live, did something helpful for NO GOOD REASON. Suppose that instead of seeking ever more profit it became fashionable to seek good for all of us. Suppose prices didn't skyrocket just because everyone had money. Suppose people got smart and realized that this was a one time leveling of the field and that if they blew it, there was no second chance?

I suppose I am just, as ever, a dreamer.

But what if it worked....

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Let the people decide what to do. Why bailout companies that have proven they cannot be made profitable?

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And why bailout people who have proven that they cannot be made responsible? Sure, there are a handful of people out there who are responsible with their lives, and even rise and fall with the understanding that they make their lives.

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Also, I never said it was perfect, what I said was, why toss good money after bad? Why not give it to the people who will lose homes and jobs and their very lives and then let THEM be responsible for themselves?

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But they weren't responsible for themselves if they're in those situations. You're just throwing bad money at more bad either way. The only difference that I see is that giving money to those irresponsible people is more personal, and therefore is the "lesser of two evils."

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Would you rather stay in the same downward spiral or give EVERYONE the same opportunity, start EVERYONE at the same spot, and let THEM decide what's going to happen.

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And that's the beauty of this country and the principles it was built upon. We RISE and FALL on our own merit, on our own hard work. If you "spread the wealth around" why would we want to work harder? Why would we want to be millionaires? Why would we care if our kids went to college?

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If no one was in fear of losing all they have, what would they do? Maybe help others less fortunate? Maybe take a chance on being happy? Maybe just hole up and watch the world go by.

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You obviously don't understand the human state of mind. Human beings are greedy. Human beings don't care. Perhaps one or two humans might care, but humans as a whole don't give a poop.

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If Americans had no debt, what would we be capable of? If we didn't sweat it out day after day making money to pay interest on loans, what could happen?

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Americans would be capable of sloth. We would forget everything we fought for. We would watch the foundation of our very existence crumble beneath us.

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Sure, some dopes would blow it all. Where would they blow it? They'd be buying things. Who would be selling those things? Where would those things being sold come from?

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They'd be coming from China, Kenya, Malaysia. -Smiles.- That's where they'd be coming from.

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Suppose, and I know this is far fetched, some people who actually cared about others and this very globe upon which we live, did something helpful for NO GOOD REASON. Suppose that instead of seeking ever more profit it became fashionable to seek good for all of us. Suppose prices didn't skyrocket just because everyone had money. Suppose people got smart and realized that this was a one time leveling of the field and that if they blew it, there was no second chance?

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Contrary to what you might believe, most people like how we live. Most people want to work hard for what they've earned. Most people want to rise by the sweat of their brow. Not everyone wants this to be an even ground. It defeats the beauty of capitalism.

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I suppose I am just, as ever, a dreamer.

But what if it worked....

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It wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by lenastorms

IF we took that 700 billion and divided it up among every citizen in the USA, all 300 million of them, each person would receive 23 million dollars.

Do you suppose a few of us could pay all our debts with that?

Why not do that?

Or am I completely off?

I agree with that! I don't think your off at all. Give the $$$$ to the people who need it not the banks. They are going to have to turn around and pay the banks with it anyway. So the bank still gets theirs and Joe Blow gets to keep his cars, house, etc. I've heard other people talk about this too. Sounds good in theory ;)

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I would def. beable to stim. the economy and have some to spare!!!!

The $2,300 number is correct. Where do you think that money is coming from? It is nothing more than redistribution of wealth.

Here, this might help with your math. It isn't the $700 billion, but the first $85 billion: http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/dividend.asp

I'm going to put my tin foil hat back on now and wait for my check.

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Originally Posted by Soterios

You're grasping at straws, at best. You still haven't provided any real proof. Don't just blindly follow rumors.

Here is proof and you're right just don't follow rumors seek the truth. I believed the propaganda till I seeked the truth. Will you seek it or will you just watch and believe the news?

Fabled Enemies
Fabled Enemies (Super High Quality, full movie)



If the American public was as responsible as you make them out to be in your post, the country wouldn't be in this mess. Giving irresponsible people money will make things worse. Look what happens to poor people who win the lottery. They're poor again within the year.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The problem is banks got greedy, people got scared and the market went to pot.

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The problem is the government forced banks to give loans to people that could not afford them. Then the banks, in an attempt to make some of their money back sold these loans but mixed them in with good loans. Finally after some time, those that were buying up these bad loans realized that they were worth nothing, and cracked the ice. Hence the reason they call it the sub prime crisis.

Anyway, about giving the bailout money to the people. I do not agree with that any more than bailing out companies that were irresponsible.

What I do agree with is having a tax holiday for every tax payer. Use that 700billion to finance the federal government for three months, and during that three months do not take any federal taxes from any tax payer. Imagine not having to pay taxes for three months.

At the pay level I will be getting at this new job, I would have an extra fifteen hundred a month in my pocket. And as something like 60% of the retail sales come from the top 15% of tax payers, you would see a marked increase in spending.

Pardon my initial typo if you please, it was supposed to be 2 point 3 million in my math. I like mine better too.

I have this to say about the poor who get rich and then become poor again. Why do you care?

A rich man can be just as stupid as a poor one.

BUT, if you tell them that this is it, no more social security, no more welfare, no more handouts, you take this and you survive or deal with the consequences, then what? Why not?

IF you're not smart enough to realize that if you did nothing at all but bank that money, provided banks are solvent, at just 3% interest, that would be more than 60K a year. You can live well and pay up front for everything you need if you're single and making that much. If you're married, it's doubled.

Put on a flat tax, start everyone at zero, and go from there.

Folks will buy houses, which puts money back into the economy. I think something like 80% of Americans don't own their own homes. If all of them paid off those loans, banks would have plenty of cash for anyone who wanted or needed to borrow it. If you're not smart enough to take a gift like that and pay off your debts, then get used to apartment life.

This system is broken.

But, since 2300.00 won't even pay an average mortgage for one month where I am, it's all moot.

The fact is the country could never get out of debt because most of these loans were created out of thin air by the Federal Reserve.

YouTube - Ron Paul on Federal Reserve, banking and economy

Where's the gold?

In order to do math with lots of zeros drop the zero's. 700 billion is 700,000 million divide by 300 million you can drop the millions. that leaves 700,000/300 now drop two zero's from each side and you get 7000/3. Remember we are working with dollars here. and 3 zero's equals 1 thousand. so 7 thousand dollars for every 3 people or 2333.33 for each person.

That being said the problem is that money has no value at all. Its paper. The only value it has is the value that other people give it. It stopped being backed by gold and silver years ago. Since its not backed by gold and silver its value is subjective.

If we do not bail out the banks and the auto makers then they fail. If banks fail then no one can borrow money and because of all the other things people have said no one can buy houses and cars. Without the auto makers people don't have jobs. Not just the people who make the cars mind you. The people who sell burgers to the people who make the cars, the people who mine steal to make the cars, the people who sell insurance to the people who make the cars. Basically everyone gets hit. How hard is all about how close you are money wise to the auto makers.

The bail out sucks but so does a great depression. I forget who posted it but start growing gardens and raising chickens.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

In order to do math with lots of zeros drop the zero's. 700 billion is 700,000 million divide by 300 million you can drop the millions. that leaves 700,000/300 now drop two zero's from each side and you get 7000/3. Remember we are working with dollars here. and 3 zero's equals 1 thousand. so 7 thousand dollars for every 3 people or 2333.33 for each person.

That being said the problem is that money has no value at all. Its paper. The only value it has is the value that other people give it. It stopped being backed by gold and silver years ago. Since its not backed by gold and silver its value is subjective.

If we do not bail out the banks and the auto makers then they fail. If banks fail then no one can borrow money and because of all the other things people have said no one can buy houses and cars. Without the auto makers people don't have jobs. Not just the people who make the cars mind you. The people who sell burgers to the people who make the cars, the people who mine steal to make the cars, the people who sell insurance to the people who make the cars. Basically everyone gets hit. How hard is all about how close you are money wise to the auto makers.

The bail out sucks but so does a great depression. I forget who posted it but start growing gardens and raising chickens.

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You talk like them failing will make it so the jobs go bye bye. That will not happen. Go chapter 11 and re structure. That way they can get out of the cruddy labor contracts, and become profitable again.

In 2007 both GM and Toyota sold 9.3 million cars worldwide. Toyota made $19billion and GM lost $38 billion.

Either you let them go under now and go chapter 11, or you give them money, just to have them go under three years from now. With those labor costs, and what not, they can not be profitable.

Here's my question, where does all this leave me?

Me being a college student. Myself and my peers, either right now or in a few years will be looking for jobs and trying to get ourselves started. Tons of people are losing their jobs so how are the new generations going to find jobs? "Mom and Dad" can't support us forever, heck a lot of people's parents can't financially support their college either.

I still don't understand why the HECK people are still "paying" for 40k+/year private schools, by "paying" I mean taking out student loans up the yin-yang. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone but I just don't understand it. How is the having the "big name" on your diploma really worth being saddled with years and years of debt?

In our state a huge portion of student loans just fell through this past year. (link to article) That means a lot of people are taking time off and trying to figure out how to pay for school. I go to an in-state school on a partial scholarship - best decision I ever made was turning down the "big name" private colleges - but I'm scared that (comparatively) low in-state university prices are not going to stay low, for any state. And that attending college for a lot of people will no longer be feasible by any stretch of the imagination.

I won't go as far to say this is the end of higher education, but with the credit collapse I am forseeing a lot less people going to college a few years down the line...

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Originally Posted by icygirl

Here's my question, where does all this leave me?

Me being a college student. Myself and my peers, either right now or in a few years will be looking for jobs and trying to get ourselves started. Tons of people are losing their jobs so how are the new generations going to find jobs? "Mom and Dad" can't support us forever, heck a lot of people's parents can't financially support their college either.

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The free market, if left to their own devises, is self correcting, as is our economy. If the government allows failing or bad businesses to fail, others pop up and replace them. In the case of the big three. If they are allowed to fail one of two things will happen. One they will restructure and get out of their bad labor contracts, and dump their bad CEOs. As they are able to get out of their labor contracts, they will be able to become productive again, and also, they will be able to hire and fire again, meaning they will be able to dump the leaches that were not earning their pay. Productivity shoots up. Quality shoots up. And prices drop. As productivity shoots up, and as prices drop, these companies can start to hire more people, and in turn, economy gets a small boost.

Now, if they are allowed to fail, and the parts companies decide not to extend them credit, then they will vanish (not likely that the parts companies will tell them no, they still need to make parts and make money). When and if they do vanish, car production will go down, causing a drop in supply, while demand stays high. So the price of a car will go up. In an attempt to pick up the slack, and produce more cars, other productive companies like Honda and Toyota, and will have to hire more workers, build new facilities, and buy more equipment. Supply will rise again, and will meet with demand, dropping the price back down. as there are only so many qualified people out there, these productive companies will hire them up quick. In the end, no jobs are lost, but new ones are created because of the need to create facilities and what not for the productive companies. But if bad companies are not allowed to fail, then the market will stay as is until acted on by a positive (business wise) force. Think about what happened during WWII.

That is the simple version, and is ignoring factors external of the U.S. that are also affecting us. But their impact is minimal compared to the problems we have caused on our own.

Now, something that the government can do to help, and it is proven to help, is lower what they take in taxes, but increase spending. This is bad for the budget, but good for the economy.

If left to its own devises. The economy will show marked improvement by the second quarter FY 10.

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I still don't understand why the HECK people are still "paying" for 40k+/year private schools, by "paying" I mean taking out student loans up the yin-yang. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone but I just don't understand it. How is the having the "big name" on your diploma really worth being saddled with years and years of debt?

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Because to make money, you have to spend money.

[QUOTE=lenastorms;938921]IF we took that 700 billion and divided it up among every citizen in the USA, all 300 million of them, each person would receive 23 million dollars.

Do you suppose a few of us could pay all our debts with that?


We'd have some left over to get some nice BP's !:cool:

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Originally Posted by Typical_08

Now, something that the government can do to help, and it is proven to help, is lower what they take in taxes, but increase spending. This is bad for the budget, but good for the economy.

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Say what? How is this sustainable long-term? I understand the government's need for taking on short-term debt to provide the infrastructure necessary for economic growth, but the government, like any business, entity, or individual, cannot spend more than it takes in. Period.

Want to clarify?

I do agree with you on leaving the auto industry to its own devices, though. Let them fail. They've had years to adjust to the changing world while asian auto companies have been wrecking shop for the last 20 years. Most of the Japanese auto manufacturers have manufacturing operations domestically anyway - employing American workers, buying supplies from American companies, etc etc. It will suck for the overpaid, over-pensioned workers from Detroit, but there are winners and losers in life. In the long term it will be better for everyone.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Say what? How is this sustainable long-term? I understand the government's need for taking on short-term debt to provide the infrastructure necessary for economic growth, but the government, like any business, entity, or individual, cannot spend more than it takes in. Period.

Want to clarify?

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Look at what Regan did during his time in office, he lowered taxes on income, but increased spending and deregulated the free market. This spending ended up creating jobs, and brought foreign dollars into our economy. Additionally. As the people have more money to spend (see my post on the other page about a tax holiday), federal revenue actually increases because of the tax taken from sales and the additional dollars coming in from foreign buyers. So in the end, they are not spending more than they make.


FFWD some years.
Clinton then came in and set the goal to ballance the budget, and re regulate everything, He rode out two terms banking on the success from the Regan era (as did the other Bush), and by the taxes, and regulations, you saw the down turn in the Bush years.

One thing that the fed has forgotten is income tax revenue does not a good economy make.

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Originally Posted by Typical_08

As the people have more money to spend (see my post on the other page about a tax holiday), federal revenue actually increases because of the tax taken from sales and the additional dollars coming in from foreign buyers. So in the end, they are not spending more than they make.

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Exactly what I said, spending more than you make is not sustainable. By your logic, as the economy got better and the government kept accumulating debt, wouldn't they just continue to spend more and more? There needs to be an end somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Typical_08

The free market, if left to their own devises, is self correcting, as is our economy. If the government allows failing or bad businesses to fail, others pop up and replace them. In the case of the big three. If they are allowed to fail one of two things will happen. One they will restructure and get out of their bad labor contracts, and dump their bad CEOs. As they are able to get out of their labor contracts, they will be able to become productive again, and also, they will be able to hire and fire again, meaning they will be able to dump the leaches that were not earning their pay. Productivity shoots up. Quality shoots up. And prices drop. As productivity shoots up, and as prices drop, these companies can start to hire more people, and in turn, economy gets a small boost.

Now, if they are allowed to fail, and the parts companies decide not to extend them credit, then they will vanish (not likely that the parts companies will tell them no, they still need to make parts and make money). When and if they do vanish, car production will go down, causing a drop in supply, while demand stays high. So the price of a car will go up. In an attempt to pick up the slack, and produce more cars, other productive companies like Honda and Toyota, and will have to hire more workers, build new facilities, and buy more equipment. Supply will rise again, and will meet with demand, dropping the price back down. as there are only so many qualified people out there, these productive companies will hire them up quick. In the end, no jobs are lost, but new ones are created because of the need to create facilities and what not for the productive companies. But if bad companies are not allowed to fail, then the market will stay as is until acted on by a positive (business wise) force. Think about what happened during WWII.

That is the simple version, and is ignoring factors external of the U.S. that are also affecting us. But their impact is minimal compared to the problems we have caused on our own.

Now, something that the government can do to help, and it is proven to help, is lower what they take in taxes, but increase spending. This is bad for the budget, but good for the economy.

If left to its own devises. The economy will show marked improvement by the second quarter FY 10.

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Edit - never mind, I read it over again, and I see what you are saying now. I agree to an extent but it worries me that if the big 3 are allowed to fail, they will create an even bigger hole in the country that we can't dig ourselves out of.

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Because to make money, you have to spend money.

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Yes, but you also can be smart about it!!

If you have $200, you can set up a basic snake rack yourself that works, and you can tailor it so that it does what you want it to do. Or, you can take out a loan and buy a really fancy snake rack online and end up paying back the money for a while afterwards. Either way you get a healthy snake. See where I'm going with this?

(I know you wouldn't normally take a loan out for a snake rack but I am trying to make an example.)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Exactly what I said, spending more than you make is not sustainable. By your logic, as the economy got better and the government kept accumulating debt, wouldn't they just continue to spend more and more? There needs to be an end somewhere.

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They were accumulating debt at the time. However, once the economy starts to thrive, the government should cut their spending, and keep taxes where they were, while leaving the free market to do its thing.

This did not happen. If it did, then the monies that the government spent, would have come back to them two fold as the economy continues to grow under less regulation, and if they would have cut their spending, it would have paid their debt. These increased monies from foreign buyers, and increased spending that people can contribute because of the still low taxes pay the debt in sales tax revenue.


Same principal with the student loan thing. You are in debt while going through school, and after, but as you grow your own little economy (career), you cut your spending, and use your increased profits from your higher education to pay your debt, and after a time your debt is paid, you are better off than when you started and you have money to spend.

But this did not happen. Taxes were raised, and regulation was forced back onto the free market. Hence where we are today.


Case in point. In the sixty's we were something like 60% energy independent. The fed instituted some serious regulations on drilling and production here. Now we are something like 90% energy dependent on foreign oil. Now, instead of us putting our monies into our oil, we are sending it overseas, so the money that could come from that and put money back into our budget, is going elsewhere.

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Yes, but you also can be smart about it!!

If you have $200, you can set up a basic snake rack yourself that works, and you can tailor it so that it does what you want it to do. Or, you can take out a loan and buy a really fancy snake rack online and end up paying back the money for a while afterwards. Either way you get a healthy snake. See where I'm going with this?

(I know you wouldn't normally take a loan out for a snake rack but I am trying to make an example.)

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I hear what you are saying, and yes that is the safe way to do things. But if you use the loan wisely, and build it fast, then you can make the money back faster, and pay your debt faster than you could have if you just saved and did a little at a time. But many people do not do this. They, like the gov, get their higher paying job, and instead of paying off their debt fast while living on what they need, instead of what they want, they accumulate more debt.

It is all about proper planning.

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Originally Posted by Typical_08

Case in point. In the sixty's we were something like 60% energy independent. The fed instituted some serious regulations on drilling and production here. Now we are something like 90% energy dependent on foreign oil. Now, instead of us putting our monies into our oil, we are sending it overseas, so the money that could come from that and put money back into our budget, is going elsewhere.

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actually our oil isnt as good as the oil we get from the middle east ours is much dirtyer than theirs so it would cost more to refine ours

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Originally Posted by nixer

actually our oil isnt as good as the oil we get from the middle east ours is much dirtyer than theirs so it would cost more to refine ours

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Not so much. It isn't that our oil is dirtier, unless you are talking about oil shale, which is not actually crude, it is kerogen. Not the same thing.

It is that our oil is more difficult to get to. So the economic limits for a number of the rigs in the US are lower than those in the ME. But we are only talking about the small portion in the areas where we are able to drill right now.

Since there are already posts wih conspiracy informaion here, this does a good job of illustrating how our money works.
Zeitgeist: Addendum

At least the financial parts of this movie are mostly accurate.