Melamine Racks

How many of you have concerns about useing melamine racks with your bp's?
Reptile Radio featured the Snakekeeper and Dan expressed some concerns about safty due to chemicals. What do you think?
Yes...I have concerns
No....I do not have concerns
I have no idea...self explanitory

Lots of people have been using them for years.

I never had any problems when i had mine.

I think with adequate ventilation, its not much of an issue.

i have not really heard that clip, but they had some stuff about it on the local radio about it. they add this too many foods to add empty protein(aka filler) while im sure its not healthy to ingest it ground up i still have yet to see any papers on it used in a product thats not typically ingested. as for the chemicals added to the melamine some are toxic.


on another note did they say anything about asbestos in vermiculite! that just plain causes cancer in everything!

personally i dont use it. i didnt vote because i have yet to see any studies or fact other than their word, which isnt really questionable, but i like to go upon more fact than word due to the amount of ppl that have used this stuff for many many years

I have a 20 (or 24) slot hatchling rack made of melamine. It was good at first, but then the top shelf has seen to been sagging and its quite hard to pull out the middle tubs on the top row.

I'm just saving up for an ARS hatchling rack...

The problem that has been stated is the off gassing of formaldehyde. This isn't a problem with the melamine itself (the melamine part is the plastic resin coating), but with ALL particle boards. As I stated in the other thread you have particle board already throughout your house. Cabinets, parts of many pieces of furniture, your counter tops, the underlayment on your floors, all have pieces or are entirely made of particle board. It's kind of hard to get away from.

However I don't doubt that newly manufactured particle boards may contain much higher levels of formaldehyde then stuff that's been around for a while. If you have any worries, you may want to leave your racks in the garage for a month or so after you've built them to allow most of the off gassing to occur in a ventilated area.

Here is an interesting web site that may prove helpful.

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/e...rmaldehyde.htm

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Originally Posted by MarkS

The problem that has been stated is the off gassing of formaldehyde. This isn't a problem with the melamine itself (the melamine part is the plastic resin coating), but with ALL particle boards. As I stated in the other thread you have particle board already throughout your house. Cabinets, parts of many pieces of furniture, your counter tops, the underlayment on your floors, all have pieces or are entirely made of particle board. It's kind of hard to get away from.

However I don't doubt that newly manufactured particle boards may contain much higher levels of formaldehyde then stuff that's been around for a while. If you have any worries, you may want to leave your racks in the garage for a month or so after you've built them to allow most of the off gassing to occur in a ventilated area.

Here is an interesting web site that may prove helpful.

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/e...rmaldehyde.htm

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I thought I was concerned until I read MarkS original post in another thread. All of my racks are made of melamine, and I have read members post that have had their 15-20year old ball pythons in the same rack their whole life with absolutely no problems, and they are made of melamine. I say we call mythbusters,lol. But seriously they is no health issue and the link that Mark posted proves this.:)

I met The Snake Keeper in person, and he is ONE RUDE SOB.

I can see why he talks down on melamine, he doesnt make it.



I was just trying to shoot the breeze with him and talk about new morphs that were comin up and he goes...no joke people

"ITS ALL CRAP. THERE IS NOTHING NEW AND EXCITING ON THE MARKET EXCEPT MY TRI-STRIPE."


I can say with great pride, that I will NEVER buy anything from him.

can somebody post a link to that specific radio show. Thanks in advance

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Originally Posted by MDB

I say we call mythbusters,lol.

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YES! Love that show.....

But seriously, while I am somewhat concerned about this as I do have my hatchling and sub-adult colubrids in a melamine rack that I made I haven't seen any adverse effects from them being in there, the room is adequately ventilated and all the tubs are ventilated so that probably helps.

However, even though people are saying that they've had their snakes in melamine racks for 15-20 years I'm sure that there's different manufacturers of melamine who use different preparation methods and possibly more or less formaldehyde in their processing. It would be interesting to see if there is anything behind this just for my own peace of mind.

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

YES! Love that show.....

But seriously, while I am somewhat concerned about this as I do have my hatchling and sub-adult colubrids in a melamine rack that I made I haven't seen any adverse effects from them being in there, the room is adequately ventilated and all the tubs are ventilated so that probably helps.

However, even though people are saying that they've had their snakes in melamine racks for 15-20 years I'm sure that there's different manufacturers of melamine who use different preparation methods and possibly more or less formaldehyde in their processing. It would be interesting to see if there is anything behind this just for my own peace of mind.

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well now that you put it that way, lol. Yes I wouldnt mind knowing myself. Do you think mythbusters would actualy do it? and if so how would we go about getting it on the show.

the chemicals that are involved in the milk scandal are quite different than the melamine resin coated wood we are using.

the same material (melamine resin) is quite common in kitchen products

from wiki:

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Melamine resin is often used in kitchen utensils and plates (such as Melmac). Melamine resin utensils and bowls are not microwave safe, as they absorb the microwave radiation and heat up.[1] As with all thermosetting materials, melamine resin cannot be melted and, therefore, cannot be recycled.

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as for the wood off-gassing formaldahide.. no idea but unless you have no ventilation it shouldn't be a problem.

I have heard the same issues with plastic racks. I think there would have been more reports if it were a big issue. I know people who have used melamine racks for years and years with no problems at all.

Just a note on formaldehyde....anyone ingesting aspartame (nutrisweet in diet pop primarily), is probably ingesting way more formaldehyde than you are potentially breathing in from a melamine rack.

Dan needs some people skills, I've seen the guy 2 times he always looked angry.

melamine isnt a problem, when exposed to room tempature or higher it doesnt let off a large amount of Formaldehyde to cause health problems... This chemical is found in things like plywood, paneling, and even cosmetics... Formaldehyde in small concentrations is a normal part of our environment.

My concern wouldn't be about chemicals, but rather sagging and longevity of the rack/cage. Though its so cheap that if you needed to replace a piece or two, no biggie. It's also mega heavy, so moving it can be a chore.

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

My concern wouldn't be about chemicals, but rather sagging and longevity of the rack/cage. Though its so cheap that if you needed to replace a piece or two, no biggie. It's also mega heavy, so moving it can be a chore.

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yea, thats why you should never build one that too long, or sagging will be a problem...

I had both of my Melamine racks, though my smaller one took around a year to start.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

I had both of my Melamine racks, though my smaller one took around a year to start.

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for got the Keyword Sag lol!

Should read Both of my Melamine racks bowed over time, the bigger one of coarse faster than the smaller.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

for got the Keyword Sag lol!

Should read Both of my Melamine racks bowed over time, the bigger one of coarse faster than the smaller.

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Same here. Mine weren't overly large, but started to sag after about three years.

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

Same here. Mine weren't overly large, but started to sag after about three years.

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Hmmm Yeah i guess thats a problem with the center of the particle board (inner part of the melamine) bending in because of its weight... Well, i just built a melamine rack and already cant wait to trash it :( Sad right? At this point with so many snakes, its definitely worth it to save up for a nice professionally made rack (boahphile,animal plastics, vision, rbi)... They will most likely last a LONG time, you will never have any sliding problems, bubbling problems, nor sagging problems... I just cant wait till i save up my money to buy myself a nice vision rack, and some nice baby racks, so i can get rid of all my melamine racks, which are SO heavy and are always having problems...

So what other types of woods can we use? Melamine aren't the only material ya kno? Can I use solid wood boards instead? Or do the stores sell shelfs that fit the tubs perfectly?

You can use wood but it is recommended to to seal it to prevent warping, no shelves that fit the tubs perfectly

I read in a thread somewhere where someone used a metal brace for the shelves to prevent warping/sagging.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I met The Snake Keeper in person, and he is ONE RUDE SOB.

I can see why he talks down on melamine, he doesnt make it.



I was just trying to shoot the breeze with him and talk about new morphs that were comin up and he goes...no joke people

"ITS ALL CRAP. THERE IS NOTHING NEW AND EXCITING ON THE MARKET EXCEPT MY TRI-STRIPE."


I can say with great pride, that I will NEVER buy anything from him.

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I talked briefly with Collette at Daytona in 07, she was very nice, I've never met Dan, so I can't really comment. I picked a couple of normals from TSK and would not hesitate to buy from them in the future.

I am about to build a new rack and plan on using melamine.

I don't have concerns about using them; although, I do not use them. I prefer plastic or metal racks, and plastic cages.

hey i use wood im building out of birch right now

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Originally Posted by DBD

Hmmm Yeah i guess thats a problem with the center of the particle board (inner part of the melamine) bending in because of its weight... Well, i just built a melamine rack and already cant wait to trash it :( Sad right? At this point with so many snakes, its definitely worth it to save up for a nice professionally made rack (boahphile,animal plastics, vision, rbi)... They will most likely last a LONG time, you will never have any sliding problems, bubbling problems, nor sagging problems... I just cant wait till i save up my money to buy myself a nice vision rack, and some nice baby racks, so i can get rid of all my melamine racks, which are SO heavy and are always having problems...

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As with most wood and wood products, there are different grades of melamine. I have racks that I built in 1993 that are still in use. Most home improvement stores sell a cheaper grade with a paper coating instead of a plastic(melamine) coating. The density of the particle board is alo another issue. Most counter tops and cabinets in your home are made from particle board. The best place to buy your melamine is from a mill shop or a custom cabinet shop. Tell them what your are using it for and the specifications and they will get you the right stuff. I can build two 10-space racks for less than what most cage builders charge for one 5- space rack.

As for sagging, I've seen more sagging in plastic caging than any other type.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

As with most wood and wood products, there are different grades of melamine. I have racks that I built in 1993 that are still in use. Most home improvement stores sell a cheaper grade with a paper coating instead of a plastic(melamine) coating. The density of the particle board is alo another issue. Most counter tops and cabinets in your home are made from particle board. The best place to buy your melamine is from a mill shop or a custom cabinet shop. Tell them what your are using it for and the specifications and they will get you the right stuff. I can build two 10-space racks for less than what most cage builders charge for one 5- space rack.

As for sagging, I've seen more sagging in plastic caging than any other type.

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If I'm buying 4x8 melamine sheets what should I be looking for to ensure I'm getting the best material I can get for my $?

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Originally Posted by AaronP

If I'm buying 4x8 melamine sheets what should I be looking for to ensure I'm getting the best material I can get for my $?

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Aaron, you want to look at the edge of the sheet. Try to peel away at the corner to see if it is paper or plastic. Plastic melamine will also have a slightly "pitted" texture as opposed to the super smooth paper. If you can peel it back like paper don't buy it. Some of the plastic type can chip around the edges, but this is usually from cutting at the mill and is nothing to worry about. The plastic type coating is sprayed on and is very durable in most cases. You can also get melamine coated MDF, but in my experience the particle board is much more tolerable. You also want to look at how dense and compact the particle board it. The more dense and tight the particles the better. Also avoid any melamine with the round edge. This is usually a paper coated, low density board.

The best bet would be to buy it from a millwork shop or cabinet shop. They can also cut it for a small fee. My shop cuts mine for $12.50 per sheet for any number of cuts. If the shop makes pro quailty products, it's usually cut by lazer for perfect measurements and very clean cuts.

good luck.

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Originally Posted by llovelace

You can use wood but it is recommended to to seal it to prevent warping, no shelves that fit the tubs perfectly

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its gonna warp no matter what unless you brace it i build subwoofer boxes to. and i use 3/4" mdf or 3/4 birch and i still have to brace them cause of flex so there really no way around it

3/4" mdf/birch/oak/melamine should be strong enough but then again if it gets wet thennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


it warps

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Originally Posted by t-Roy

So what other types of woods can we use? Melamine aren't the only material ya kno?

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I used door blanks for the last adult rack I built. They're extremely sturdy, good insulators (their internal structure is just under an inch of cardboard support and air) you can find them made out of a number of materials that can be stained and sealed. You don't get quite the same density, but a full height door blank will make an 11 tub rack, assuming you're using standard 6" tubs.

http://www.cubeskin.com/rack/rack_side.jpg

http://www.cubeskin.com/rack/rack_open.jpg

The only concern I have is of breaking my back when I go to move them :D:D

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Originally Posted by Chris Rossi

The only concern I have is of breaking my back when I go to move them :D:D

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Hollow-core. Very light. That 8 space rack probably weighs less than 60lbs. Just a guess.....but it might even weigh less.

Great idea!

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Hollow-core. Very light. That 8 space rack probably weighs less than 60lbs. Just a guess.....but it might even weigh less.

Great idea!

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I was talking about the melamine, it isnt very light :no::no::no::no:

Sorry. I thought your response was to the door slabs. I agree about the melamine.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Sorry. I thought your response was to the door slabs.

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No Prob:D:gj:

I have moved to custom made pvcx racks. just need to learn to meld the plastic

i love all my melemine racks. no probs, and no worries.

my snakes don't come in contact with the wood so no worries

I took steel rods and put 2 of them under each shelf for the reason i thought they would sag and i have never had any sag in any of my shelfs - Hope this made some sence im half asleep and im trying to type but everything is a blurrrr :)

I have a very long melamine rack that is several years old that my friend made. It uses 1X's across the sides, back, and front for support. Their is no sag in it at all. Just give everything the proper support it needs and you are golden.

I have 13 snakes in one melamine rack that I made myself (and wow that was quite a learning experience) and am wanting to start replacing it with pro built racks.

It is just too heavy a d unwieldy. I'll be using it for awhile and it gets the job done but I can't wait til my RBI racks come in (got a sweater box rack and a side by side 12qt from him).

I can still use my melamine to hold lots of hatchlings or a couple of my biggest girls.

Anyone mind posting that handy guide on weight to tub size? I remember seeing it a lot before but I can't find it now and forget what the general rules are. Like when should I move a snake out of the 12qt tub?

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Originally Posted by takagari

I have moved to custom made pvcx racks. just need to learn to meld the plastic

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Ive been looking for sheets of pvcx in baltimore. How much do you pay per sheet?

Here is a sight I hope it helps http://www.sdplastics.com/pvcx.html

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Originally Posted by mikels

Here is a sight I hope it helps http://www.sdplastics.com/pvcx.html

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So what do you do exactly with these sheets. Cut them w/ a table saw like I would the mdf? Or are you somehow molding them into shape?

Does anyone actually know of a case where someone had adverse effects? I read in VPI's ball python book that a zoo lost some snakes from fumes in a particle board cage but it wasn't melamine and it wasn't sealed. It was also the actual cage apparently so the animal's waste probably contributed to the gassing off. Brandon, you mentioned you have a rack from 1993 so I assume you've had some animals that have been in melamine racks for a long time (10+ years)? Not saying there isn't a risk but I have yet to find hard evidence of a melamine rack actually causing a health problem with the animals. Some cages are built from it which would be a higher risk than a rack and I haven't heard any problems from those either.

I am going to build a malamine rack but before I do to save me from reading 5 pages worth of posts please tell me yes its okay too or no its not so I don't waste time or money please.

thanks,

lance

Hi,

I was reading about some of the comments on Dan Sutherland...I really think we owe certain breeders a bit of thanks for the hard work they have done over the years. It has been a tough year for everyone. I just wanted to add some thoughts that some of you might have had as well.

When I got into breeding ball pythons about 3 years ago, I got on the internet and started to educate myself about anything I could find on the hobby. It did not take long to find out who the kings of breeding and selling where. I remember how excited I was and was thinking how everyone must share the same excitement, especially the big breeders.

So I wrote all the big breeders with so many questions about how to get started and what snake to get first? How many snakes do I need for a good start and just about any thing most of us wanted to know when we started.

So about 2 weeks later I would get these limp replies....

"Great to have you getting into the breeding of balls. Good Luck."

"Hi sorry it took me two weeks to get back to you. Buying a ball python is really what you want."

"We have been really busy breeding out our high dollar snakes, and what was your question?"

When I was looking for a clown I wrote 3 of the big breeders if they had one or where expecting any? About a month later one of them wrote me back saying they had one and that would have been great if had not already bought one 3 weeks earlier. I did reply letting them know that with no response from them.

So I realized just as fast that these guys did not want to waste 2 seconds of their time on me unless I was going to write a major check. So I than wrote the smaller breeders and they could not have not been better about answering my questions and sharing my enthusiasm. And every snake I bought came from a reputable small breeder. Personally, if I went to a show I would not waste two seconds of my time trying to talk to the big boys. They are just not interested in talking about your spider and albino ball python. If anyone thinks this is a slam on the big breeders it is not...It is just the reality of what we have to deal with.

Regards,
Bill

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Originally Posted by Jessandyballs

Hi,

I was reading about some of the comments on Dan Sutherland...I really think we owe certain breeders a bit of thanks for the hard work they have done over the years. It has been a tough year for everyone. I just wanted to add some thoughts that some of you might have had as well.

When I got into breeding ball pythons about 3 years ago, I got on the internet and started to educate myself about anything I could find on the hobby. It did not take long to find out who the kings of breeding and selling where. I remember how excited I was and was thinking how everyone must share the same excitement, especially the big breeders.

So I wrote all the big breeders with so many questions about how to get started and what snake to get first? How many snakes do I need for a good start and just about any thing most of us wanted to know when we started.

So about 2 weeks later I would get these limp replies....

"Great to have you getting into the breeding of balls. Good Luck."

"Hi sorry it took me two weeks to get back to you. Buying a ball python is really what you want."

"We have been really busy breeding out our high dollar snakes, and what was your question?"

When I was looking for a clown I wrote 3 of the big breeders if they had one or where expecting any? About a month later one of them wrote me back saying they had one and that would have been great if had not already bought one 3 weeks earlier. I did reply letting them know that with no response from them.

So I realized just as fast that these guys did not want to waste 2 seconds of their time on me unless I was going to write a major check. So I than wrote the smaller breeders and they could not have not been better about answering my questions and sharing my enthusiasm. And every snake I bought came from a reputable small breeder. Personally, if I went to a show I would not waste two seconds of my time trying to talk to the big boys. They are just not interested in talking about your spider and albino ball python. If anyone thinks this is a slam on the big breeders it is not...It is just the reality of what we have to deal with.

Regards,
Bill

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Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with this generalization. I can think of three instances where I got quite a bit of help from big breeders. One was Greg Graziani when I had a question on the genetics of pewters, sterlings, silver streaks etc. He not only called me back but spent about 20 minutes or more making sure I completely understood what they were. Mind you, this was without it even being a sales inquiry. Another was VPI. Dave gave me some tricks on how to switch over to f/t that worked on three snakes after every other trick failed and I've also talked to Tracy on the phone on occassion as well. Not sure where Alan Bosch falls in as far as "big breeders" but this guy bent over backwards for me when I bought my pied and Hurricane Ike hit just prior to shipping and I was unable to take possession for 3 weeks due to Fedex having major shipping problems. Also, if it was not for the work of Ralph Davis and Brian Barczyk (sorry Brian, I probably just butchered your last name) what would have happened to HR669? They were the ones that were out there campaigning like their lives depended on it. Going back to VPI, Dave and Tracy have done tons of work trying to educate people on snakes. I'm sure there are big breeders out there that are not interested in helping the small hobbiest but making a generalization like this is not fair.