Snake Breeding Loan

When you use your snake in a breeding loan:

What do you ask in return?
money / part of the clutch

What do you do if only one visual morph is produced?

Please give examples of your cases and what morphs where involved. ie, co-doms-co-doms, co-doms-normals ......

excellent quesiton!! i always wondered that. like if you have a het and put it with the recessive animal and only one recessive is produced who gets it?

All of these things will depend on the breeder and what the two partys agree to. Its different with every breeder loan. If you can find a breeder willing to do one.

Be warned though most breeder loans are geared in the breeders favor. Last money in first money out. Breeder picks first animal and gets the odd offspring should there be an odd number.

The way my breeder and I agreed was owner of female picks first....odd number snake gets bought out by either party or sold and profit split unless the females first pick is a high priced animal...then the male owner gets the odd free and clear.

I had a thread up on loans a while ago and Heather posted the contract she had used. I pretty much used the same contract with some minor changes.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=66809

I've always looked at breeder loans by what the person brings to the loan....

For example, say I have a Albino Pied male and my friend wants to send his het pied female to me on breeder loan. I would look at it this way:

My investment - $15k + or -
My friends investment - $2k + or -

So my friend is contributing 15% of the total value of the pairing. Therefore I would set it up so that he receives 15% of total value of the offspring. (probably a least one pied het albino or a double het or pair of dbl hets... all depends on the clutch offspring)

I would also set it up so that whomever does the actual breeding work has the first pick of the clutch.

Just an example... hope it is helpful!

Justin

There are a lot of variables, and they're always different depending on the people/animals. I have one of my adult het albino girls out on breeding loan with someone right now. Myself and the breeder have agreed upon 50/50 of the snakes.

Next year I'll have a few worth while boys up to size that I'm going to have out on loan to people as well those may be different.

I was gonna put my Pastel male on breeding loan and I was gonna get a portion of the profit made and pick of the clutch. Basicly the same thing we did when we bred Labs when I was younger. Now since my spider is on the way in a few years I won't have to worrie about needing to find a female. I'll just need to get her big enough to breed.

Sent out my females with a good friend and she asked me what i wanted them paired to and well that was all. But because most are normals and this is my first rodeo with BP's and breeder loans ill be fine with any lil babies i get and mind you i said good friend. I don't think i could send off any of my babies to someone i didn't know well

So far i have only loaned out males. and they were Lechies(Giant Gecko) not snakes. I have no problem loaning out snakes though. But it would have to be local.
And if i loan out a male i wouldn't expect a 50/50 split of the babies. Since the female does most of the work the other person should recieve most of the reward. And it also depends on the litter. If there is only 1 visual morph present i would just ask for a couple hets.
If someone wanted one of my females they would have to bring the male to me.

Thanks Guys, those examples were great.

Any one elese that would like to share their experience is welcome!!

There are so many different variables to consider here.

Most have all covered this in the replies so far. One of the main things I take into consideration is the female. Who has it, what it is.....is it the morph or is the male, does it matter which is the morph.....so on.

This past year, I did some breeding loans with my Normal and Het females. I brought the females to the different breeders' houses, that way they could breed their males to some of their females as well. Both breeders are good friends of mine, and I had seen their facilities before. Here was what we agreed to:

Co-dom (Mojos, Cinnys, Spiders, etc.) x Normals: The breeder gets first pick (since their animal is worth more and they are caring for, feeding, housing my female for multiple months, and they have to incubate the eggs). After that it goes every other person. So if #1 is the breeder and #2 is me, it would go 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, etc. until all of the hatchlings have been chosen. If there was an odd number, we would determine that at that time based on the value of the odd animal and who is getting the lower value of animals. For example, if they were receiving 2 Cinnys and 1 Normal and I was getting 1 Cinny and 2 Normals and their was one more Normal left, I would get it since they have 2 Cinnys and I only have 1.

Here's what ended up happening with a Mojave x Normal clutch:
We got 7 good eggs. During the last week of incubation, one of the eggs went bad. Out of the clutch, there were 0.1 Mojave and 2.3 Normals. Since he got first pick (and because there was only one morph), we both decided that it would be fair that he would get the female Mojave and I would get all 5 Normals. Because of the value difference and the bad odds in the clutch, we both agreed that this would be fair, and we were both happy with what we were receiving.


Recessives- (Albino, Pied, Clown, Caramel, etc.) x Hets: When the breeder is breeding a Homozygous recessive to a Het or Possible Het, the same thing applies as above. The breeder gets first pick, and it goes every other pick from there.

Designer Animals (Co-dom + Recessive, Double Co-Dom, Double Recessive, etc.) x Normals: The breeder who has the Designer animal will definitely be doing the breeding on this one. They get top two picks, and then it goes every other one from there. So if #1 is the breeder and #2 is me, it would go 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, etc. until all of the hatchlings have been chosen.

*Morph1 x Morph1 crosses (Pastel x Pastel, Lesser x Lesser, Cinny x Cinny, Het Albino x Het Albino etc.): Who ever has the female would probably receive first pick. If the person with the male is doing all of the breeding, though, you would have to decide how to sort them.

Morph1 x Morph2 crosses (Pastel x Cinny, Lesser x Spider, Pastel x Spider, Caramel x Hypo, Pied x Pastel, etc.): There's probably going to be one animal that is worth more than the other, and chances are, the person who owns the more expensive animal is going to want to breed the two animals himself. Depending on the difference in value and the actual morphs involved, the person with the more expensive animal will at least get first pick, if not the first two picks.

*Combo x Combo / Combo x Morph1 (Pastel Pin x Spider, Pastel Cinny x Super Pastel, Pastel Spider x Pastel Hypo, etc.): The person with the more expensive combo will want to have both animals at their facility, and they will get first pick or first two picks.


*Means that this is a breeding loan that I have not done, and am not doing this year.

I have a male now and will only purchase males in the future. I'm already working out the financial details that will allow me to add several of the less common morphs into my collection. I'm not getting them with an eye toward breeding, but if the chance to loan one out for a breeding project came up I would certainly look closely at it. My critera would be as follows in priority order:

1) I would have to trust the breeder and their facility. I would insist on QT for my BP in their facility prior to any breeding attemps. That protects their collection and would give my BP 3 months to adjust to a new style of husbandry. (I know we're all supposed to do pretty much the same things when it comes to husbandry, but everyone has their own style) The breeder would also need to be within no more than 4 hours driving distance.

2) It would have to be a project that interested me. Making money would not factor into my decision. There are plenty of commercial breeders who have resources I will never have. I'll leave the money making to them. I would be much more interested in the offspring as an addtion to my own collection.

3) I would want second pick of the clutch. If only one morph I was interested in was produced, or if only female morphs are hatched, I'd ask for a future option on the same type of morph, or one of equal value. I would also consider a straight trade for stud services rendered, equal to 1/4 of the total value of the clutch produced. Again, I wouldn't be looking for cash to change hands, just a way to add BP morphs I'm interested in to my collection.

I would think it's really important, no matter what the terms, to record all loan agreements/contracts very concisely as a written document signed by both parties. Rack your brain for every possible outcome of the breeding exchange (including really far-fetched and unlikely outcomes) and decide a fair resolution for each. Cover ALL the bases.

From what I've seen on the fauna BOI many disputes would have been avoided alltogether if the loan agreement was more specific, and in writing. It's a shame when people lose friendships because of a misunderstanding about who deserves which snakes and/or money.

I personaly would never do this I have heard of way to many people having experiences where the borrower decides to misplace the lenders, name and number. I would say stay away from lending anyone your snakes.

I've done several breeding loans and they have worked out well for me (and I think the people I loaned to would also say it worked out well for them).

The split we arranged was based on the value of the two animals but also taking into consideration that the loan only consumed a portion of the male's breeding year but all of the female's (i.e. divide the male's value by they number of females he will be breeding).