Growing Concerns

Hello out there!

Alright, I got my little 'Nagini' in mid September of this year. She so far has seemed to do very well with socializing and being active. She had her first shed near 8 weeks after I purchased her from what seemed like an avid reptile hobbyist, which I took her to the vet for as she had some difficulties as a result of low humidity. I remedied this by switching her shredded aspen substrate for coconut brick substrate which has ramped the humidity. Since then though, she has been very inactive; like moving from one spot under her heat lamp, to 6 inches away. She kinda folds herself in half rather than coiling, and won't go in her shelter anymore!
Furthermore, she hasn't eaten in over a month! I'm worried and plan to call my vet however, I wanted to get as many voices on this as possible. My vet isn't a herpetologist so I can't say that I trust them unquestionably.
I appreciate anyone's thoughts or experiences on this.

Haha! I got caught up in the activity and eating concerns that I forgot to mention my concerns of her size. When I got her (September) it was said she was 3 months old and approx. 19 inches. Based on what I was told she's now about 6 months and is approx. 20 inches... From what I've read she ought to be growing much faster than this no?

It would be helpful to know what you are feeding her, how often, environmental specifics, what her weight was at time of purchase and what her weight is now, etc. etc. etc.

also what are the temps and humidity levels?

Oh, yeah.
I feed her hoppers, pre-killed. Brown cause she's picky and doesn't like white ones. From the beginning she has been finicky eating every 2 weeks on average. I've only been able to get her to eat 4 in the 3 months that I have had her.
Her environment during those feedings was aspen. She has a rock looking hide, which she has usually been very keen on spending time in prior to changing the substrate to coconut fibre. That was a little over a week ago.
Her temp. - warm is 84-90 F. - cool is 76-80 F.
Humidity since substrate change has been 60-80%. Before then I was misting several times a day to keep it above 40%.
I would like to go back to aspen however, are there any other ways to stabalize the humidity at 60 with aspen?
Note: I combed the glass vivarium post by Cassandra last night and will evidently be making some changes to the tank in terms of the heating, temp. monitoring, and a lid to maintain humidity better...
Anywho, hope that helps. I apologize for not posting all this. I am new to the forums and new to owning a bp so needless to say, I'm still learning lots! :)

Well the reason she isn't growing fast is because she isn't eating enough. She should be eating every 5 days or so. How often do you offer her food? Have you thought about switching to live food?
I would up your warm side temp to 93 though, 90 is a liiiitle low.

Are you using a glass terrerium? If so thats probably why you are having problems with humidity. Try covering about 75% of the screen lid with tin foil and duct tape, this will help considerably. Also, that heat lamp eats humidity like crazy. You might want to ditch the lamp in exchange for a under tank heater. :D

Hope this helps. I have had my BP for about as long as you have :)

Thank you for the suggestions! I know that ideally she ought to eat more, and perhaps it is due to me not offering frequently enough. I had thought that switching to live might bring better results. I will do this when I pick up her next one. Should I try a mouse instead of a hopper?
I have a UTH as well as the lamp. The UTH is under her hide which I wonder might be too warm? Also, after reading the glass vivarium setup thoroughly, I am going to cover up the two sides as well with foam core and tape to provide some extra insulation/privacy.
Wish me luck and I look forward to any other suggestions! It is all very much appreciated! Thanks a bunch

OB
1.0 Norm BP - Nagini :snake:

What are you measuring your temps with?

Well #1 the prey size sounds far too small. I feed most of my snakes around that size rat fuzzies or adult mice. #2 she might not be feeding because she is feeling stressed. If the tank is in a high traffic area it could be causing her to get stressed out and go off feed. Try moving the tank to a different area where there is not as much going on.

You also want to bump up the temperature on the warm side a bit. Does she have 2 identical hides? One on the warm side, one on the cool side? Also what size tank is she in? Balls prefer smaller tanks and for a snake that size either a 10 gallon tank or a 15 qt tub would be ideal. The most important thing is to get the snake in an ideal environment and everything else should follow.

the food item should be about as big around as the diamater as the largest part of your snake. offer a mouse every 5 days and if she doesn't take it right off, leave it over night. my snake will only eat eat in the dark with nobody in the room. (thats why i feed in the evenings, just incase i have to leave it in there, it won't be long before lights out) they are just shy eaters. if she still doesn't take it, just wait till next feeding day to try again.

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Originally Posted by pillowtalk6188

the food item should be about as big around as the diamater as the largest part of your snake. offer a mouse every 5 days and if she doesn't take it right off, leave it over night.

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Only pinks should be left in overnight. If the rat/mouse is big enough to bite it is not safe to leave overnight.

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Originally Posted by FatBoy

Only pinks should be left in overnight. If the rat/mouse is big enough to bite it is not safe to leave overnight.

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I'm assuming she meant f/t, which is what I sometimes have to do with my pastel...he likes to wait until the lights are out to come out and eat it. But definitely don't leave a live prey item in there overnight...

Also, I think it helps a lot to know what the weight of the bp is. I just got $20 digital cooking scale from a kitchen appliance store, and I will weigh my bp's every couple weeks and weigh the prey before offering it to make sure it's about 10-15% of the snakes weight. Although if she's refusing the food, the problem is probably heat or security, so make sure the temps are about 80 on one side and 90 on the other and the tank isn't too big and you cover 3 of the 4 sides.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

I'm assuming she meant f/t, which is what I sometimes have to do with my pastel...he likes to wait until the lights are out to come out and eat it. But definitely don't leave a live prey item in there overnight...

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Your'e probally right...my bad. I only feed live so that's what I relate to. :)

When I took her to the vet during her shed, they said that they found her rather small, weighing in at a mere 76 grams. For 20 inches, is this terribly light? I'll try live next time (tomorrow) first, then if there's still trouble I'll kill it and leave it in overnight. Furthermore, given her size, should I step up to a mouse or stay with hoppers?
I'll raise the temp. Is a ceramic heat emitter the only way? Should I put a UTH on the cool side too? Also, I used to have a lizard whose lamp I actually had facing the side of the tank, which raised the temp. of the glass and tank...is this feasible with snakes or no?
Thanks for all your responses thus far! Learning more and more by the post! ;)

Again, what are you using to measure your temps? And what is regulating your UTH?

I have a digital thermometer set up with the probe in the warm end of her tank down by the substrate. The hydrometer is a gauge one mounted by the substrate in the middle of the tank.
Like I said, I have read the glass tank set up and plan to change it more in line with Cassandra's model but up until now, it's seemed to serve its purpose alright.
Suggestions are always welcome. Thanks for your interest!

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Originally Posted by FatBoy

Only pinks should be left in overnight. If the rat/mouse is big enough to bite it is not safe to leave overnight.

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well i mean leave a DEAD mouse in there over night. lol. not a live one.

Do you have a thermostat regulating your UTH?

No, there's no thermostat regulating my UTH. When I bought her and the set-up, it was never suggested. Perhaps her shelter is getting too warm? It is directly overtop of her hide. I was thinking of a) putting some aspen substrate under her hide, as she was keen to go in it when I used aspen and b) move it off of the UTH at least a little.
Are these sound ideas?

UTHs can get as hot as 120 degrees. You need to have a thermostat controlling it, or at the very least a lamp dimmer. Rancos aren't very expensive and work very well.

The only sound idea is to get a thermostat to regulate the heat from the UTH. Running a UTH wide open can lead to extremely hot temps that could lead to thermal burns on your snake :O

Will take care of that asap tomorrow when I pick up her next (hopeful) meal. Thanks so much for informing me of this!

Keep us updated! :gj:

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/sho...hp?i=22670&c=3

Ok, this is my first time trying to post a picture here so hopefully there are no technical problems...although I am not quite sure how to shrink it down size wise.
Note on the lower side of the belly (in the frame) the long dark blue like colour along her stomach.
Has anyone seen this before? My concerns for her have been growing and as of tonight I've been in hysterics trying to understand all of her now alarming behaviour. This has included, relatively no activity aside from the odd unnatural movement, which has looked almost like an expression of pain. She has not been drinking water much in the last week. I spotted only a single urate while changing her substrate. She hasn't been flicking with her tongue. Not even the mouse that I have been trying to feed her over the last few days. She seems to have little coordination/strength to manage her movements.
Her temp (ambient) is low 80s. The shelter is warmer being over her heating pad with a terrarium blanket under the Aspen, which collectively diffuse the heat substantially. Humidity has been fluctuating after spraying but is sitting around 60%. I've now switched her substrate back to Aspen as she seemed far more comfortable with it. I enclosed the sides of her aquarium with foam core board to give privacy and insulate the tank to raise the ambient temperature. I put aluminum foil on the top of the screen to further contain temp. and humidity.
Okay for now thats about all the info I can think to provide. I'm taking her to the vet tomorrow because at this point I am seriously fearing whether she'll be alive much longer however, this reaction is also a product of my ignorance that I am trying to hard to correct through constant reading and consulting.
Once again, has anyone seen a marking like this before? Its elongated, slightly bulgy, dark bruise like...
Parasite? Internal bleeding?
Please help me if possible.
Thank you everyone.

hummmm...I couldn't get your picture to open on my slow connection but from your description it doesn't sound good. I'd say "yes" to the vet visit.

I'll try to codense the picture and make it smaller. Thanks for notifying me. The vet is a no question at this point. I'm feebly attempting to do my finals right now despite whatever kind of trouble she is in and all I can think of or wish for is a 24 hour phoneline that I can't find anywhere...
I'll try to get the picture issue taken care of.

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Originally Posted by OB23

I'll try to codense the picture and make it smaller. Thanks for notifying me. The vet is a no question at this point. I'm feebly attempting to do my finals right now despite whatever kind of trouble she is in and all I can think of or wish for is a 24 hour phoneline that I can't find anywhere...
I'll try to get the picture issue taken care of.

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Photobucket might help?

Still can't see your picture. I'm glad you're getting her to the vet. Please keep us updated.

I'm on a mac and don't have an photo software...just trying to figure out how to shrink the dimensions of the photo. The photos are in the gallery under my name if anyone's willing to try that way. I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks for letting me know

I am not sure of the markings that your have provided a picture of.

I would say that you need two identical hides. I actually have 3 currently. with the multiple identical hides they don't have to choose safety over what they need. They will always have a favorite hide if they are different even if it to their own detriment.

Please if you have not put a thermostat on your UTH please do it just as soon as the store opens in the morning. I didn't have one on my first enclosure and I put my hand on it and it was so hot I immediately took my hand off. I really am sorry that you are going through this unfortunately a lot of people go and get their snake and do not learn anything more about them then what the pimple faced retard told them and the pet is the one who suffers.

Just be patient and be careful and I am sure all will turn out well, you could not have found a better site for BP information. A lot of the people on here have great reputations and are collectively genius.

Please be sure you take that baby to a vet ASAP like in the morning on your way home get the thermostat for your UTH.

This is OB23's photo of his ball.

http://tarazod.com/other_hosted_pics/nagini-ball.jpg


Yikes!

With regards to the hides, does there need to be a UTH under each one or can I trust her to move if she finds one too cold? I will get my hands on a thermostat asap. I've moved her hide so that only part of it is covering the UTH which has dropped the temp to 87.5 at the moment, but we'll see what happens when it gets a chance to create an ambient temp. inside. This is only a temporary solution.
Thank you for your reminder of the thermostat. I asked about it at my mouse supplier and they didn't have one. I'll keep looking and hopefully will get it under dialed control sooner than later. In the meantime, all I can do is move the thermometer probe around to check temps...
Thanks again.

THANK YOU! I don't know how you did that but please explain it to me when you have the time. That way I can do that from now on.
Now that it's out there, has anyone seen it before/know what this is?

Reptilebasics.com this is where i get mine I use helix. there is a 2 day air option. You need to have a warm and a cool side and place a hide on both sides and the snake will decide where it wants to go. Also you MUST get a digital temp gun, these are so vital in getting your husbandry 100% correct on you heating.

Thanks once again for your input Hoax. All the sources are hugely appreciated.

Once again, if anyone recognizes the dark markings on my baby's belly, please let me know what I can expect these to be. I'm up late doing homework/worrying about her till I can get her to the vet at 10 am anywho.

Thank you everyone!

I know this is off topic, but does the name "Nagini" have some significance related to snakes? I ask because a friend I know named their BP that also.

it's the name of a snake in harry potter.

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Originally Posted by snakelady

This is OB23's photo of his ball.

http://tarazod.com/other_hosted_pics/nagini-ball.jpg


Yikes!

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How far along the body is this??? When is the last time the animal defecated??? It could probably use a nice warm soak to help stimulate a defecation, just a thought.... Good luck

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Originally Posted by OB23

THANK YOU! I don't know how you did that but please explain it to me when you have the time. That way I can do that from now on.
Now that it's out there, has anyone seen it before/know what this is?

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I posted your pic by hosting it on my website. You just need to have a hosting place such as flickr or photobucket. they are both free.

Then when you click on the "insert image" icon you can then post your picture url in the window. The hosting site will give you a url link to your image. Presto you've posted a pic.

Hope you get your balls situation worked out. Let us know what the vet says.

Thank you for your concerns everyone. Unfortunately, despite bathing, gentle handling, rearranging of hides and every other feeble attempt I could muster, Gini passed last night at around 4:30 in the morning. I gave her a bath at around 3:30 to try and hydrate but by then she was relatively unable to move. The mark was about 2 inches long and I noticed one other like it about 1 inch long further down her body.
My girlfriend's cousin is a veterinarian with a lot of herp experience and walked me through some things to try and help. On that note, I learned that UVA/UVB combo bulbs are sometimes advantageous to Balls despite popular belief because they help provoke appetite. Maybe that will merit another thread as I read more about it. I am going to freeze Nagini in the event that she can be dissected and hopefully something can be learned from her and whatever this discolouration was. Her belly scales weren't pink or burned so I am pretty sure that it wasn't anything to do with the UTH damaging her.
Realistically, she has been peculiar since I got her, not eating frequently and having little nuances about her movement. Such movement includes the 'wobble' kind of thing that I've read about, so maybe something neurological was going on.
While this was a learning experience for me from the beginning and continues to be so, I would like to urge everyone who is ever considering buying a snake from the local pet store or 'enthusiastic hobbyist' to really do your homework first and get multiple opinions on things as Judy mentions in her 'Two sides of the coin' post. Take it to heart. I purchased Gini and all her equipment from a hobbyist who told me I needed nothing more than what I had only to learn (possibly too late) that more is required to properly control your precious ball's environment. That's not to say that one MUST spend an exorbitant amount of money on their terrarium, more so just to stress the constant value in further education.
Thanks again for all your help everyone and hopefully in the future I'll find myself posting pics of another baby here.

Im sorry you lost her! I hope a necropsy will bring light to what happened. Please keep us updated. When will you have the necropsy done?

At this point, I expect that the necropsy will happen around the holidays or post new year's. I am determined to have it done so as to hopefully inform all of us BP lovers as the pictures have so far revealed little familiarity to the viewers here. As docile and wonderful as they are, they certainly seem to be an enigmatic creature. One that we have a lot to learn about and I am fortunate to have an enthusiastic vet who would like to try and reveal this mystery however, I have been warned that post mortem necropsies on non-fresh corpses often present difficulties so we'll all have to cross our fingers for some hints.
As always, thank you for all your support bp.net, and I hope that this loss becomes a gain to us in learning more about these beautiful critters.

I'm sorry to hear about your loss...

Someone can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but you won't want to freeze the body prior to necropsy. That could possibly kill off whatever was the COD rendering the necropsy inconclusive.

You're right that there is the possibility that the necropsy can be inconclusive with it frozen but I was not told of any other way to preserve the body until then, which for the record is probably going to be around 2 weeks from now. She's been in the freezer now since about 2 pm so she's likely frozen. If however, anyone has any other suggestions for preservation please throw them out there.
Thanks

Sorry for you loss.

I hope that you do get another ball python. If you do there are many great breeders available and any worth a dang are on BPnet.

I personally can only speak for my experience with Adam Wysocki at 8ballpythons.com you can also go with Brian at http://www.bhbreptiles.com/. Patrick Long for one has a great reputation around here and he is a "hobby breeder" unless I am mistaken and this is his full time gig.

Please don't get discouraged about hobby breeders. There are many that care just do your home work about them. Also don't be surprised if they wont let you see their whole collection at their "shop" it is all about safety and to keep you snakes protected from parasites or even some one "casing the joint" and coming back to steal them.

Thanks for the references hoax. I am not discouraged with hobby breeders, as many of them are very trustworthy. Nor am I trying to put anyone down. I am merely disappointed that in my case I trusted an individual whose breadth of work made me confident that I could trust their direction given to me and later learned that I may have inadvertently contributed to my pet's evidently painful demise.
Privacy of one's operation is understandable for the reasons you gave; totally. Perhaps what I should have more specifically articulated is the urge for any future bp shopper to ask questions concerning the health of the animals that may seem touchy such as whether they are checked for any health problems etc. From what I've learned thus far, it is appearing more and more that Gini's problems were less likely a byproduct of error and more so a condition that was present prior to my receiving her.
Anywho, it is still very close to the whole experience and naturally I am feeling inclined to react to this with disappointment at any misinformation I might have been given. Like I said, hopefully the necropsy won't be spoiled and will yield information that I can give to others so that we can all be more informed.
I have no doubt that I'll take in another bp, there is a reputable breeder near home for me in Ontario amongst the many other great references you gave me so we'll see where I end up. Thanks for the encouragement hoax. Granted, we're all here because its rather hard to walk away from the allure of these animals once we've had a taste of the fun.

Hello gang,

So, I know it's been ages since we were discussing Gini and her necropsy and its been fast going since getting back to school from the holidays but I have to honour my promise to tell what I found out.
The vet who performed the necropsy told me that an unidentifiable obstruction was found in Nagini's stomach/small intestine. She could not tell what it was. Given this, I am relieved to know that it was a) not substrate (I was using aspen at first then coconut fibre) and b) not undigested food
Now, over the holidays I hit up Port Credit pet centre, which my fellow Canadian Ontario residing owners will probably know, and to my surprise I found a copy of Kevin McCurley's "The Complete Ball Python". This book is absolutely amazing! I ate through the pages in no time totally engaged and was filled with information about what this 'obstruction' could have been. One thing I am sure many of you have heard of is 'hard bellies', which is a condition derived from hatchlings being removed from their eggs prematurely; that is, right after they've pipped but not allowing them the 1-3 days to finish absorbing the yolk. This can often cause internal deformities, in this case it may have formed and blocked her stomach.
However, there was one more condition that I had noted similar symptoms... IBD (Inclusion Body Disease). I only suspected this because of her 'goofiness' where she had been lolling over and had little coordination. Either way, the obvious cause of death was there however, a determined disease or ailment was not.
Anywho, since this rather traumatic experience I have taken it upon myself to learn a lot more about husbandry, the various approaches to it, and next steps for future critters. Thanks again for everyone's support!

I just read through this entire thread - so sorry for your loss, it sounds like you did everything you could to help Nagini.

But thank you for posting the update on what was discovered by the vet, it's always nice to know the outcome of a story, and I'd never realized that kind of obstruction could happen, wow... another example of why breeder choice is so important, i guess! (I got my BP from someone I thought was reputable, but she turned out to have mites on her, so I guess not so much)

Now you've got the ball python bug, though, I'm sure your next little one will thrive.