Rack tub sizes? AKA: Am I reading all this right?

Alright. Please, first understand that I mean no ill or insult to anyone when I say this. But.

I have been in love with balls ever since I first saw one, and now, I finally have my first. I am thinking about many, many more, as I love herps. However, space... well, not so much space for me, but space for them, is an issue to me.

If I am reading these rack instructions right, then I am seeing an enclosure for these animals that is only just 2 feet by 1.5 feet by a half a foot tall.

For a snake that can get up to 5 feet long.

Seriously? If that is the case, then forget it... I could never force my snakes into that dull of a life. I mean... how do they MOVE? What is there to explore? Where do they HIDE?! How would you terraform that?

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

If that is the case, then forget it... I could never force my snakes into that dull of a life. I mean... how do they MOVE? What is there to explore? Where do they HIDE?! How would you terraform that?

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Wha?

Because we keep OUR snakes in smaller enclosures you will not keep BPs?

Or you will not keep your BP in a smaller enclosure?

Not really sure what you're saying (dramatics aside).

Tubs come in MANY sizes, you can keep your BP in whatever size you want. Just make sure you do some research and are providing an optimal living space for them. And mind that your snake is thriving.

As far as I am concerned, best way for me to make a non-thriving BP and get it back on track is to take their enclosure size down drastically.

You may or may not agree, but keep multiple BPs for long enough and you may change your mind. Or build the biggest enclosure you can manage and if you're successful then great.

But just make sure that you are doing what is right for your animal and not simply what YOU think the snake needs.

I for one get tired of people that insinuate that keepers use smaller enclosures simply to keep more BPs.

Bruce

EDIT: when you build a rack you decide on shelf height... use larger tubs... use smaller tubs... that is the joy of DIY.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

Alright. Please, first understand that I mean no ill or insult to anyone when I say this. But.

I have been in love with balls ever since I first saw one, and now, I finally have my first. I am thinking about many, many more, as I love herps. However, space... well, not so much space for me, but space for them, is an issue to me.

If I am reading these rack instructions right, then I am seeing an enclosure for these animals that is only just 2 feet by 1.5 feet by a half a foot tall.

For a snake that can get up to 5 feet long.

Seriously? If that is the case, then forget it... I could never force my snakes into that dull of a life. I mean... how do they MOVE? What is there to explore? Where do they HIDE?! How would you terraform that?

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i think you better learn alot more about balls before you lean towards a post like this. these animals live mostly in rodent dens and termite mounds.
put your snake in a 100quart tub and youll be back here again complaining that it wont eat!

The floor space in a tub is the same floor space than a 30 or 40 gallons tank, the only difference is the height and as you know BP are ground dwellers and do not require much height.

Bottom line is, as long as you have a good understanding that BP are shy animals and that you know what their needs are, you can house your BP the way YOU want to house him/them whether it is in glass tank or tub

Understand that there are different successful ways to house a BP as long as you meet their needs.

@ Bruce: What I am saying is, am I reading things right, or can someone correct me on sizes? I mean yeah, I do realize making the cage smaller for a period of time will cure some anxieties and snakes that may make the creature not eat. I've been there with many other snakes.

However, I do not get how a barely 2 feet by 1.5 foot by half a foot enclosure is large enough for an adult snake. When I came into this forum, I was hoping to find a cage setup DIY like the cages we used to keep at an animal rescue and education I used to work at that did a lot of work with rattlers. We kept them in a setup that gave each snake, unless they could be paired or grouped, its own equivalent of a 20 gallon tank. It took up its own room, which is what I was intending to have -- a happy, thriving reptiroom. Read my reply below to Nixer to see more of this rationalization.

@ Nixer, Deborah: I've done a LOT of research on BPs, and everything I read stated that a full grown snake should be in, at least, a 20 gallon tank, better, a 30 long. I understand that a 20 gallon, a 30 gallon, and a 32 quart case are all the same square footage (3), but the 20 and 30 give a lot more in at least one direction, and from what I have seen of BPs, including my own new one, when not in their hide, they rather prefer to be able to stretch out. A 20 and 30 gallon allows this, while the 32 quart would not. And even ground dwellers like to lift their heads and bodies every so often...

I'm just asking for a rationalization of this. I've never seen it USED, in person, only through your guys' photos. I've never been able to inspect a snake's personality for BPs depending on how far they can move and stretch, both horizontally and vertically. To me, it currently seems like something outrageously outlandish, but if someone would want to give me a reason I would want to enclose my snake into a space that he'll barely be able to move his head up in come adulthood, then it might seem a bit less ridiculous and upsetting of a concept to me. But right now, it seems a bit cruel and unusual.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

@ Nixer, Deborah: I've done a LOT of research on BPs, and everything I read stated that a full grown snake should be in, at least, a 20 gallon tank, better, a 30 long. I understand that a 20 gallon, a 30 gallon, and a 32 quart case are all the same square footage (3), but the 20 and 30 give a lot more in at least one direction, and from what I have seen of BPs, including my own new one, when not in their hide, they rather prefer to be able to stretch out. A 20 and 30 gallon allows this, while the 32 quart would not. And even ground dwellers like to lift their heads and bodies every so often...

I'm just asking for a rationalization of this. I've never seen it USED, in person, only through your guys' photos. I've never been able to inspect a snake's personality for BPs depending on how far they can move and stretch, both horizontally and vertically. To me, it currently seems like something outrageously outlandish, but if someone would want to give me a reason I would want to enclose my snake into a space that he'll barely be able to move his head up in come adulthood, then it might seem a bit less ridiculous and upsetting of a concept to me. But right now, it seems a bit cruel and unusual.

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that extra vertical area means nothing to them(they are not good climbers). i have some balls that have never came out of their hide without them strinking at me or food. i have other that all they do is try to escape. i also have snakes that wont eat unless they are in a tub obviously way too small for them

most ppl use only a few sizes of tubs period 5.5/6qt,12/15qt,28/32qt, and 41/cb70 size. this is what most places sell and use, including just about everyone that has done actual research on these animals.

personally myself i dont think any fish tank is a proper cage for anything but fish but we dont see any complaints about that! there are other caging options out there that are larger and better insulated. go another route

I don't have a fish tank, though; I have a reptitank, which comes in varying sizes similar along fish tanks. But yeah, basically, it is a glorified fish tank, just much more secure.

It seems odd to me to hear that you have so many snakes that strike. Almost everyone I know that owns balls, and has owned them for a long time, have barely gotten struck. But they usually don't do live prey for their pythons, and I know that that can factor into it.

Are you sure they aren't striking from anxiety of being in a small space? Or escaping because the enclosure is too small for them?

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To me, it currently seems like something outrageously outlandish, but if someone would want to give me a reason I would want to enclose my snake into a space that he'll barely be able to move his head up in come adulthood, then it might seem a bit less ridiculous and upsetting of a concept to me.

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I will say it again


1# You must understand and meet their needs

2# House YOUR BP the way YOU wish to house your BP as long as you have a good understanding of 1#

3# There are more than one way to do things, YOU can chose what works for YOU however you should also be open to other options.

4# Because you do not wish to house your BP in a tub does not mean it is wrong to do so or that the animal’s need is not met (it is YOUR perception based on YOUR knowledge and experience).

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I have been in love with balls ever since I first saw one, and now, I finally have my first.

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5# Do not judge people that successfully have maintain their animals for years based on (again) YOUR perception and knowledge.

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I've never seen it USED, in person

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I've never been able to inspect a snake's personality for BPs depending on how far they can move and stretch, both horizontally and vertically.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

I don't have a fish tank, though; I have a reptitank, which comes in varying sizes similar along fish tanks. But yeah, basically, it is a glorified fish tank, just much more secure.

It seems odd to me to hear that you have so many snakes that strike. Almost everyone I know that owns balls, and has owned them for a long time, have barely gotten struck. But they usually don't do live prey for their pythons, and I know that that can factor into it.

Are you sure they aren't striking from anxiety of being in a small space? Or escaping because the enclosure is too small for them?

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no its not because of small space!
and those ppl that havent been struck at dont have alot of snakes or never hatched any.

my snakes are not handled alot.

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But they usually don't do live prey for their pythons, and I know that that can factor into it.

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:rolleye2: Feeding live has nothing to do with striking, you need to do a little more research about this as well.

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Are you sure they aren't striking from anxiety of being in a small space? Or escaping because the enclosure is too small for them?

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A BP are not more likely to bite or try to escape if place in a smaller enclosure.

If you own a snake long enough or you own enough of them sooner or later you will get tag.

oh yea i didnt mention that i have 50 balls here currently

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Originally Posted by Deborah

:rolleye2: Feeding live has nothing to do with striking, you need to do a little more research about this as well.
A BP are not more likely to bite or try to escape if place in a smaller enclosure.

If you own a snake long enough or you own enough of them sooner or later you will get tag.

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Erm, I think you need to do your research, m'dear Deborah. Live and dead feeding, as well as WHERE you feed them (feeding tank opposed to their own cage), do factor in rather a lot as to whether or not your snake will bite you. Any snake. Period.

@Nixer: Even if I did have 50 balls, I couldn't see not giving them limited handling time. But then, I believe in snake breeding in the same way as most view canine breeding: breed violent canines, probably going to have a violent pup. Breed violent snakes, probably gonna have a violent clutch. That and if I were to start breeding, I would do it not only based on those oh-so-pretty colors, but also on whether or not the snake had a decent temperament. But that's just me.

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Erm, I think you need to do your research, m'dear Deborah. Live and dead feeding, as well as WHERE you feed them (feeding tank opposed to their own cage), do factor in rather a lot as to whether or not your snake will bite you. Any snake. Period.

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And you are basing that on your experience of having acquiring your first BP or is it based on the misinformation coming from your friends and/or a pet store specialist :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

And you are basing that on your experience of having acquiring your first BP or is it based on the misinformation coming from your friends and/or a pet store specialist :rolleyes:

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And... oh, I don't know. 5 years of handling large snakes and rattle snakes, a red tailed boa that I owned since I was 7, multiple corn and garter snakes... I could go on with the rest of my animal rescue work resume, if you prefer.

Well here are a few things that you apparently do know

Feeding a Ball Python in his enclosure will not make your BP more likely to strike or bite.

Feeding a Ball Python live will not make your BP more like to strike or bite.

Housing a Ball Python in a small enclosure does not make a BP more likely to strike bite or to escape.

You can believe otherwise and it is fine with me however like I said previously regarding the ORIGINAL subject there are various way to keep Ball Pythons as long as YOU meet their needs so there is no need for you to judge because people chose other options available to them.

Deb, don't waste your breath. This person just got their first BP, how could they NOT be more knowledgeable than you?!? ;)

I for one am waiting on the Valdyr Ball Python Care Guide.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

And... oh, I don't know. 5 years of handling large snakes and rattle snakes, a red tailed boa that I owned since I was 7, multiple corn and garter snakes... I could go on with the rest of my animal rescue work resume, if you prefer.

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Did you handle your Rattlesnake the same as your corn?

Every type of snake is different.

Oh and Lenastorms has her balls in tanks and very nice setups. If you ask nicely she may let you see some pics.

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

Erm, I think you need to do your research, m'dear Deborah. Live and dead feeding, as well as WHERE you feed them (feeding tank opposed to their own cage), do factor in rather a lot as to whether or not your snake will bite you. Any snake. Period.

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Sorry but your not correct about that.

Any snake can bite you no matter where or what you feed it. How you feed it can have a marked effect on the likelyhood of that happening however.

I suspect you are talking about the old wives tale saying a snake fed in its tank will be more likely to bite when you reach in to clean etc? And that snakes fed live are more aggressive?

Neither one holds much water when you look carefully.

There are a few angles to consider about both these points - feeding in a dedicated enclosure means you are having to handle an animal that is either expecting to be fed or just has been. In some cases this can mean it is more excited and keyed up than normal. Feeding in its regular tank means reaching in to its tank where it is in the habit of being fed.

Now, snakes can learn the feeding routine fairly readily and they can certainly smell the difference between a human and a rat/ mouse - which means that, done correctly, they know when dinner is about to be served (this is why we pre-scent the area on feeding day) and when it is not.

I fed all my snakes just last night (Frozen/ Thawed ) - every one of them knew it was coming and not one of them bit me. I feed in their tubs dangled by hand ( yes I know it's not wise :P ) and I can put my hand into any tub and not get a feeding bite as long as I do not smell like a mouse or a rat. On any non-feeding day that is just as true.

I also know however that the babies are still full of wind and vinegar and will hiss up a storm and try and bite me if I don't go away. :rofl:

Since they know what is food and what isn't then the state of the prey isn't really a relevant factor either once they know what to expect.

When I first came here I was co-habiting four adult royal pythons in a five foot by two foot by two foot vivarium and, therefore, seperating and feeding in seperate enclosures every week.

I didn't get bitten very often then either - in fact most bites we see are what we call SFE's (stupid feeding errors ). My last one was turning round to talk to someone thus moving the rat while she was striking making her miss. Entirely my fault.

I now keep all my adult ball pythons in three foot by two foot by seven inch tubs in a rack system and feed them all in their tubs - and I have to tell you my snakes definately seem happier than they were in the bigger enclusure crowded on top of one another.

To be honest - we really aren't the ones needing to do the research on this point.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

@Nixer: Even if I did have 50 balls, I couldn't see not giving them limited handling time. But then, I believe in snake breeding in the same way as most view canine breeding: breed violent canines, probably going to have a violent pup. Breed violent snakes, probably gonna have a violent clutch. That and if I were to start breeding, I would do it not only based on those oh-so-pretty colors, but also on whether or not the snake had a decent temperament. But that's just me.

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That's a point we have seen discussed on here before and, if memory serves, there are people trying to see if it holds true. It will be intresting to see the results in a couple of generations.

But ball pythons aren't known for being bad tempered either - most (but not all :P ) calm down really quickly once they are in a stress free environment and make wonderful snakes to handle.

**edit**

Yup - I spent so long writing this 5 other posts happened :oops:

**end edit**


dr del

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

Erm, I think you need to do your research, m'dear Deborah. Live and dead feeding, as well as WHERE you feed them (feeding tank opposed to their own cage), do factor in rather a lot as to whether or not your snake will bite you. Any snake. Period.

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Erm, I think maybe you might need to do your research. All 40+ of mine are fed live IN their enclosures, and none of them strike at me.

However, I wouldn't dare try to move any of them on feeding day to a separate enclosure - that WILL get you mistaken for food when all they are thinking about is food while you're moving them.

Just sayin.....

@MiniJ83: Shod off, don't come in here when I am trying to LEARN something and share my knowledge and insult me. Apparently everyone skipped the first part of my post stating that I meant no insult and I wanted input from people using something that, for now, seems ridiculous to me, but may seem less so later if someone can come in here and TELL me why its a good idea.

@ Dr. Del: Finally someone trying to rationally explain things to me instead of coming in here and saying that I am stupid and know jack about balls just because I am currently owning my first one.

I, personally, will always affirm that old wives tail because my red tail was much, much calmer when I switched her over to dead prey, as well as a lot of the other snakes I have worked with in the past. I realize that all snakes are different, but there are some things that you can generalize.

I do very similar things as you with feeding my snakes, but instead of using my hands, I use a set of soft silicon tongs to hold the rodent down in there. For my corns, for my boa, for everything that required prey larger than a cricket. And yes, I do realize that snakes will recognize feeding patterns; around here at the herp society, they recommend random feedings for snakes that tend to get snappy at feeding time.

Now, could you please, PLEASE, do what this thread was originally intended to do and give me YOUR thoughts on keeping snakes that reach 4-5 feet strictly in a 32 quart tank? I would like to hear ANYTHING rationalizing; I gave my opinions and thoughts on the matter, but I will listen for enlightenment. I've been around many herp societies, read some of the top care sheets on the internet, and everything I read told me to have a minimum length of 5 feet per tank, except for a few of the ones I discounted because the information was ridiculously vague.

I UNDERSTAND that in the wild these snakes will house themselves in termite dens and rodent burrows, but I view that as more of the equivalent of the HIDE I offer my snake, not the equivalent of his overall living environment. My snake's health is probably a lot like MY health. I know that if I am locked up in a small room for a long period of time, my mental and physical health will start to deteriorate. Maybe its not that way for ball pythons, but I have had no one, necessarily, tell me that this is so and WHY it is so.

I know that most of this thread has done little more than disappoint me; I hope there are breeders around that handle all their snakes regularly and know their habits and quirks, and know when they are healthy or not... I'm starting to think those Balls I saw at petsmart with the worker paying so very much attention to them might have been a better choice than my captive-bred that I got for my birthday, and I really hope there are breeders out there that do spend time with their snakes... if anyone still does that, I would love a PM or something with your website, so I can hopefully become a regular customer to them one of these days. No offense to the breeders that don't; after all, interaction, attitude, et cetera, might have nothing to do with offspring, but I'd rather take the safe side and go for a breeder that knows their animals. I prefer that MUCH over a prettily-decorated snake.

And anyone who can give a rational reply as to ANY of these questions, be it about the tank size and why its NOT a bad idea, and how offspring comes out from snakes of different dispositions (calm, violent, shy), then I would love to hear it. But I've had enough insult slinging, and after my response to MiniJ83, I will be ignoring anything that comes henceforth.

So, you want help and answers. But when knowledgeable individuals such as Deborah give you the answers...you pretty much say, "Nope. Wrong. Go do research."

Hope you get what you're looking for.

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Erm, I think you need to do your research, m'dear Deborah. Live and dead feeding, as well as WHERE you feed them (feeding tank opposed to their own cage), do factor in rather a lot as to whether or not your snake will bite you. Any snake. Period.

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Erm. (what is that anyway? - I like it!)

Sorry there friend, but you are way out of your league and you are not looking very reflexive. Reflexivity is key when keeping ANY type of animal. And to state that you do rescues... erm... doesn't really pull a lot of weight. Many of us have rescued snakes from rescues that were being improperly cared for.

Snakes are not snakes across the board.

You need to know your species and work with that knowledge, which you have shown you are lacking at current.

I think Robin, Deb, and I are all in the same area (they are definitely more experienced mind you - and have wider variation in the their collections), but we all have 40+ snakes that are being kept sucessfully.

So m'dear, feel free to type down your nose at us. At the end of the day, our snakes will still be eating, shedding, breeding and thriving.

Best of luck,
Bruce

Ok.. So heres my opinion here... I have almost 50 snakes presently.. Thats just the start of the reptiles in this house. The snakes including balls mostly. I have been tagged mostly by nippy babies that strike out of nowhere. adults it doesnt happen so much although there has been a few almosts.. Usually I did something I shouldnt have. I do have one wild caught adult that doesnt tolerate handling well. She likes to be left alone. She voices her displeasure constantly..
I can however, take you in my room have you open whichever rack you wish and I give you the history on the snake to the best of my memory including when we got it and the name and weight of the snake. I have more detailed records on paper. But my brain works well for the most part. I can also tell you that I know when there is something odd about behavior of my snakes. They get handled at least once a week some more than others.. but they do get handled.. Inspected it bathed and extra one on one time. Its time consuming but I like spending time with them. Thats why I do this. I talk to them too.. My husband thinks I am nuts sometimes:DI have had a few angry balls when I first got them. and with regular handling settled in well. And the nippy babies eventually stop when they realize that whenever it opens that doesnt mean its food.
As for tubs.. I use tubs.. I have shoebox size for hatchlings. then 15 qt as they start to grow.. also have 32 and 41 qts. the 32 are mostly male or smaller females. 41 for the larger females.
I started with tanks. I can take pics of the tank collection thats in my attack, if you wish.. I moved on to tubs.. I have found alot of the snakes with the bad attitudes got better... It made no ones attitude get worse. When they dont have a view like a tank provides it tends to create a less stressful life for the snake. what is the first thing most say when you say you have a snake thats stressing striking whenever you walk by? cover the sides.. What am I doing with my tub but covering the sides. They dont seem to be saddened by how they are kept nor unhappy, lathargic any of that. Tubs I feel are a personal preference. and as most caresheets I know of say a 20 gal is more than suitable for an adult ball.. So if a 20 gal is suitable at its 2 ft by 1 ft by 1 ft. than why isnt my 3 ft by 2 ft tub? Every ball I have had in a tank never climbed on anything I had in there to climb on. And they are proven to be ground dwellers so lower space isnt going to hinder their happiness. This is where my research came in and when I decided tubs. They arent like a boa who most like to climb quite a bit.. but still they can be placed in tubs as well that are higher.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

We kept them in a setup that gave each snake, unless they could be paired or grouped, its own equivalent of a 20 gallon tank.

@ Nixer, Deborah: I've done a LOT of research on BPs, and everything I read stated that a full grown snake should be in, at least, a 20 gallon tank, better, a 30 long. I understand that a 20 gallon, a 30 gallon, and a 32 quart case are all the same square footage (3), but the 20 and 30 give a lot more in at least one direction,

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20 gallon long = 30 x 12= 360 squared inches of floor space

32 quart = 16x23.75 = 380

30 long = 36 x 18 = 648

41 quart = 33.5 x 17.5 = 586.25

Stop bashing tubs. A 32 quart tub has more floor space than a 20 gallon long, which you claim is the proper size.

I hope my simple math helped you out:gj:

And not only what Tmoore pointed out. But the tubs also add extra humidity and security. :D So space convenience aside. They actually have added benefits for the snakes!
I have to agree with everything said so far. It's all I use for my 80+ snakes. The only thing I have in a glass tank is my Adult Male Desert Patchnose with a heat lamp.

I used to use glass. Problem feeders where more frequent. More bad sheds. WC snakes where super hard to acclimate (I work with species rarely if ever available CB).
Life got much easier when I switched to tubs and my animals seem WAY happier. ;)

I realy didn't bother to read everyone elses replies (I mean no disrespect to any one or thier opinon, Just being honest that I didn't read the whole thread) so I'm just gonn throw my 2 cents in. I used to keep mine in tanks then I got cages. I swore I would never get a rack because I felt that racks are for breeders. My snakes are my pets not my my job. After a while I just had to many cages and hit the point were I need a rack or a bigger appartment. I got a 5 slot 32 rack. I love it and now Swear by them. I think many people on here will agree with me that thay are just plain easier then a bunch of cages and all my balls are much more consistant eaters.

@MiniJ - Most of the answers that Deborah were giving me were not 100% relevant to what I had entirely asked. It, sadly, ended in an arguement that probably devalued one another in eachother's eyes. Plus I probably could have worded this post a bit better, and made it seem a bit less... grouchy and insulting, but I was just trying to give my view of the act of racking snakes in my eyes, hoping that someone would give me some reasons as to why the racks work better than cages (after all, its easier to inform a person when they state why they think something might be bad).

@Bruce - I assure you that the places I have worked and volunteered at knew their stuff with the animals that they took care of.

If I weren't lacking knowledge in the area of racks, would I have made a post stating how I felt about them and asking for opinions on them by people that use them? No. I believe not.

However, I am looking down my nose at no one other than on feeding, because it is something that ALL the herp societies around me believe in. Maybe it works different for you, but its always worked for me to remove the snake from its normal cage before feeding it. I do, however, feel that many have looked down their nose at me simply because I am -OWNING- my first ball python.

@Shadi - Thank you, that was EXACTLY the type of response that I was seeking out. Thank you for telling me about how it helps the snake instead of, as I originally viewed, hurts it.

However, the only 32 quart tubs I have found by Sterilite claim the dimensions to be 16.5" W x 23.5" D x 6" H... am I looking at the wrong one, if you claim yours to be three feet?

@TMoore - Actually, I was going to house mine in a 30 gallon, and only claimed the 20 gallon to be a "lowest recommended size" for BPs according to most of the research I did...

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everything I read stated that a full grown snake should be in, at least, a 20 gallon tank, better, a 30 long.

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But that doesn't entirely matter. Thanks for the math; I think I calculated my own square footage a bit off, or perhaps I was looking at some different-dimensioned tanks, but they all came out to be about 3 foot.

@ Amanda - Do you mean the humidity got lower? Or higher? All the research I did stated that bps were pretty arid in clime needs, with an average desired humidity of about 50%. Of course, that could be wrong as well, we've all seen these apparent BP geniuses floating around the internet... I laughed at the vagueness and bad wording of the "top" guides in the google search results (I always try to dig back a few pages, due to it.)

@ Mr. Constrictor - Thank you for that. I guess, once my BP gets a bit older and I have a bit more experience and more of a relationship with him, I'll set up an experimental rack space and see how he reacts... if all goes well, then a rack might be in order instead of this uber-complicated cage setup I have in my mind, and if he reacts well, then heck, I'll think about getting serious with it.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

@Bruce - I assure you that the places I have worked and volunteered at knew their stuff with the animals that they took care of.

If I weren't lacking knowledge in the area of racks, would I have made a post stating how I felt about them and asking for opinions on them by people that use them? No. I believe not.

However, I am looking down my nose at no one other than on feeding, because it is something that ALL the herp societies around me believe in. Maybe it works different for you, but its always worked for me to remove the snake from its normal cage before feeding it. I do, however, feel that many have looked down their nose at me simply because I am -OWNING- my first ball python.

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It isn't owning your first snake. It is you condescention I think that is irksome m'dear.

Bruce

And the feeding in the enclosure myth... is just that, it is a myth.

But that has been explained in detail already.

Bruce

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@Shadi - Thank you, that was EXACTLY the type of response that I was seeking out. Thank you for telling me about how it helps the snake instead of, as I originally viewed, hurts it.

However, the only 32 quart tubs I have found by Sterilite claim the dimensions to be 16.5" W x 23.5" D x 6" H... am I looking at the wrong one, if you claim yours to be three feet?

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The deminsions I was quoting is those for the larger balls I have which is 41 qt tub. and it is 36 in by 18 in I was off in the second deminsion I think I said 2 ft..

Thank you, Shadi. And I am guessing mostly females get housed in the larger ones due to their usually larger size?

you are correct in that assumption. The chances of my males getting to the size of the females I have are pretty slim. And if they did they would have a large tub as well.

dont think for a minute i cant tell you everything about every herp i have and every one i have ever had! :colbert:

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

@MiniJ - Most of the answers that Deborah were giving me were not 100% relevant to what I had entirely asked. It, sadly, ended in an arguement that probably devalued one another in eachother's eyes.

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My first answers were relevant to your original post.

You came here already prejudice against tub housing mainly because of the dimensions,

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Seriously? If that is the case, then forget it... I could never force my snakes into that dull of a life. I mean... how do they MOVE? What is there to explore? Where do they HIDE?! How would you terraform that?

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and I addressed that in my very first post. (You asking to give good reasons only came in your second post and by the time I got to it YOU had already went off topic with aggressive behavior due to feeding methods, not me)

When you went off topic talking about aggressive behavior, I commented on that since the info posted was not correct. Sorry if you have an issue with that but when I see false information I will correct it simply because there are already enough new BP owners that keep thinking that those old wives tales are the truth.

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Plus I probably could have worded this post a bit better, and made it seem a bit less... grouchy and insulting, but I was just trying to give my view of the act of racking snakes in my eyes, hoping that someone would give me some reasons as to why the racks work better than cages (after all, its easier to inform a person when they state why they think something might be bad).

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You are right coming here and asking about tubs housing and their benefit rather than already being prejudice and calling it cruel would have gone a long way compare to your original post, which I also pointed out in my first post.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

And... oh, I don't know. 5 years of handling large snakes and rattle snakes, a red tailed boa that I owned since I was 7, multiple corn and garter snakes... I could go on with the rest of my animal rescue work resume, if you prefer.

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How many snakes do you own total? How is that you have 5 years' experience with giants and hots and are missing some very basic knowledge about snake husbandry?

What rescue organization are you affiliated with?

Just a quick plug for tanks here. When I had nothing but tanks I didn't like racks. Then I got a beautiful rack system and didn't like tanks. After moving my entire collection to racks I soon realized that some of my snakes actually prefered tanks!!! I made a very cool "rack" system for my 20 gallon tanks and I love it so much I'm making another one. They are lined up side by side with a single strip of 11" flexwatt running under the back end of each tank. My other rack is a Freedom Breeder so it's actually easier for me to maintain humidity in my tanks than my racks. And I love sitting in the snake room at night and watching them all out at once.

I'll put my .02 in here lol. I keep all my snakes with the exception of my male king in racks and all of my BPs seem to be quite happy with their setup. I have 2 RBI 32 qt racks and the smaller snakes are all in divided tubs. I know it's already been said 100 ways but ball pythons like small dark places. In the wild they live in termite and rodent burrows spending most of their lives underground!

I have one girl that, even though she's big enough to be moved up to a full tub, refuses to eat unless she's in one of the divided tubs. Which, even to me seems too small but that's what she wants!

Okay I was in the same situation when I first started with BP. I swore that I would not get a rack system and keep them in tanks so that they could have space to meander around. After about 3 months, and having a hard time keeping proper temps, humidity problems, numerous shed problems, and with them trying to escape every other day by climbing mind you. I came on here to research and found that many people switched to a rack system due to the same problems. I was afraid that these problems would led to an RI problem and or other health problems, thus why I changed to a rack system.

I built my rack from a DIY here on the site. It made keeping the temps and the humidity so much easier to where I had no problems with shedding. I see the same activity that I saw when they were in tanks, they like to come up to the front of the tubs and go underneath the substrate. I keep all of my snakes in a 28qt tubs, and will be buying or building another rack so that my large females can be in CB70's.

On the feeding situation that happened earlier in the thread. My personal opinion is that I feed my snakes frozen thawed in separate enclosures, but some will never take and I have to feed them in there original tubs. This is a must and I will never deviate from that. You will learn what it takes to keep your snakes happy, and healthy. I also have a small collection not like the 50+ that others have, but when my collection gets that big I will switch to feeding in their tubs, due to time constraints.

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

I UNDERSTAND that in the wild these snakes will house themselves in termite dens and rodent burrows, but I view that as more of the equivalent of the HIDE I offer my snake, not the equivalent of his overall living environment. My snake's health is probably a lot like MY health. I know that if I am locked up in a small room for a long period of time, my mental and physical health will start to deteriorate. Maybe its not that way for ball pythons, but I have had no one, necessarily, tell me that this is so and WHY it is so.

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First, I hope you understand your comments are making you sound ignorant and arrogant. There are so many people here with years and years of practical experience to help you. It would behoove you to listen to them.

Next, no you are wrong. Your health is nothing like the health of a ball python...or any snake for that matter. Snakes do not have feelings, or emotions...they have instincts. Professionally I study animal behavior at a tier 1 research university. You cannot put human feelings and emotions on animals..why? because they are not human.

To answer your original question: a 28qt tub is fine for adult balls...41qt for large individuals.

I'm glad I read this thread. I currently have 1 BP (at first I wrote that I had 1 ball, but it didn't look right), and am getting several more in a couple of weeks.
My guy now is in a tank, but I will be putting the others in tubs in a rack. I've done a lot of research, and have realized that the tubs are the best for them. However, part of me was still thinking like the OP that maybe the snakes would be happier in a larger enclosure. so they had "room to roam." All the posts here have help put that to rest for me.
Also good information for when talking to people about how I will house the snakes. When telling one guy about the rack I'm building, his comment was that it sounded like a puppy mill, which is an easy misperception to have.
Thanks to all for the good info.

People need to realize that a tub resembling a hide is exactly that.
In the wild the snake will move to look for food, water and a mate.
In captivity they do not need to "go explore" they are not Magellan or Frost.
If all of their needs were met in a hide then I can assure you that you would see them out and about even less than you currently do.
A tub is a hide with heat, humidity, security, food, water... and sometimes tail.
I wouldn't leave home either and I LIKE exploring.
-Steven

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Originally Posted by Valdyr

However, I am looking down my nose at no one other than on feeding, because it is something that ALL the herp societies around me believe in. Maybe it works different for you, but its always worked for me to remove the snake from its normal cage before feeding it. I do, however, feel that many have looked down their nose at me simply because I am -OWNING- my first ball python.

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Most of the folks I know in herp societies also keep their animals in racks. In fact, EVERYONE I know personally keep their collection in racks, with the exception of adult chondros....and even some of those are kept in racks.

As for feeding outside the enclosure, I never quite understood the concept behind this. I was always told it was "so the animal didn't mistake the opening of the enclosure as feeding time". So my response was, "so instead, it thinks everytime it's out of the enclosure it's feeding time, right?".

As for rescues, some of the "rescues" I've seen are nothing more than people that just do not want to pay for animals. They call themselves a rescue just to get free animals. Not saying that about all of them, but quite a few.

Sometimes experience is the best teacher.