Inbreeding in Animals

Can a biologist/geneticist/anyone smarter than me enlighten me on why inbreeding doesn't affect animals the same way it does humans? Every time I hear the phrase "breed it back to a parent" I get a hiccup in my stomach although I know it isn't a bad thing (and has produced many of the beautiful morphs we see today). So why are their dire consequences when humans do it and not animals?

Snakes have a very simple genetic make up. Unlike Humans or Dogs, we can successfully In-breed up like 12 gens I think I read somewhere. (dont quote me)

Personally.....I will not go more than 2 generations of in-breeding. Given Im not proving any genetic traits, where more than 2 generations are sometimes needed.

Can you venture a guess at why simpler genomes make it possible? It seems to me that an animal with fewer chromosomes would experience worse side affects from a screwed up chromosome/gene.

The way that I see, is that the genomes, are a more simplified genome. Its not as complex like said human.

Lets call them letters for a second....

If a human genome has A B C D E F & G

And snake genome has A B C

You have less of a chance to get a genetic defect, because of the simplicity.


Who knows. I could be totally off base here, but this is ow it makes sense in my head.

Thanks for the input.

Is there anyone out there with any more ideas?

Sean Niland over at VMS Herp has a good article on inbreeding: http://www.vmsherp.com/LCInbreeding.htm

Two reasons, morality and recessive genes
Morality - Humans have higher functioning than animals and we have deemed this practice wrong whereas animals only want to get their rocks off and dont care who the recipent is. However, if you look at royal families such as Egyptians or the Royal Family (England), their histories are ripe with inbreeding as it is thought to preserve desirable traits.

Recessive genes - inbreeding can be bad for both humans and animals if there are recessive genes in the gene pool which cause something undesirable. for example pretend little a is bad (a) Mom (Aa) and dad (AA) have some kids (AA, AA, Aa, and Aa). if mom or any of the heterozygous kiddies "mingle" you end up with (AaXAa = AA, Aa, Aa, and aa). aa has webbed toes and an under bite. But if its a good trait like albino than you want to do this. so really at a genetic level inbreeding is ok for both so long as no ones a carrier (Aa) or has (aa) a genetic disease (hemophilia).

Inbred humans... is a pejorative term that is very value-laden and frought with moral qualifiers.

We see issues with small human gene pools if a destructive trait gets concentrated.

Take a few humans that lack those, let them breed a few generations... breed the kids back to the parents... *meh*...

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

Take a few humans that lack those, let them breed a few generations... breed the kids back to the parents... *meh*...

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I guess that makes a completely good point besides the absolute unmorality of it. But as human beings we've always treated other animals differently than our own so "meh"...

What do you mean inbreeding in humans has side effects???? ..I will ring my mum who is also my sister, using my very useful third hand while I'm typing this with my 2 free hands to ask his opinion on the subject:)

Seriously though, breeding back to the parents etc does leave me feeling a bit uneasy (not that I've done it yet). I know they are snakes and not people, and plenty of people have line bred, but it's ...u know inbreeding non the less.

Does inbreeding happen/has happened in the wild?

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Originally Posted by scotty99

Does inbreeding happen/has happened in the wild?

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I'm pretty sure most species avoid it although I'm sure there are the exceptions. But for animals like Cheetahs inbreeding is unavoidable. They are so close to extinction that in breeding is the only choice they have to repopulate and I believe that currently they are all distantly related to each other.

All non-migratory animals inbreed... snakes are non-migratory.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by scotty99

Does inbreeding happen/has happened in the wild?

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Probably not much in warm blooded animals just based on their social behavior...young wolves are run off to find their own packs, other large roaming animals cover lots of ground which further's their chance to outbreed. I do wonder about animals like orcas and dolphins live in family pods.

In cold blooded animals, it's most likely more common. I'm thinking of large frog populations in a small pond, and turtles who may not roam far from their place of birth during their lives.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Probably not much in warm blooded animals just based on their social behavior...young wolves are run off to find their own packs, other large roaming animals cover lots of ground which further's their chance to outbreed. I do wonder about animals like orcas and dolphins live in family pods.

In cold blooded animals, it's most likely more common. I'm thinking of large frog populations in a small pond, and turtles who may not roam far from their place of birth during their lives.

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A lot of mammals, even those that seek out other packs (like wolves) end up with mixed genes every generation as those offspring seek new packs and end up in the populations of origin.

My family raises wolves, so they were salient. :)

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

A lot of mammals, even those that seek out other packs (like wolves) end up with mixed genes every generation as those offspring seek new packs and end up in the populations of origin

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Bruce, do you think this is due to loss of habitat and less room to roam or was this typical behavior back in the day when wolves had free run of the west?

I have a question. Should you breed sister and brother. I always heard that it was fine to breed mother and son and father in daughter, but not good to breed siblings. The reason i asked this is that i could of bought a pair of possible het carmels but passed because of them being siblings. they where priced really cheap.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

All non-migratory animals inbreed... snakes are non-migratory.

Bruce

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that is a rash absolute!

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Originally Posted by Slim

Bruce, do you think this is due to loss of habitat and less room to roam or was this typical behavior back in the day when wolves had free run of the west?

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My family would tell you that they have always inbred. The reasons I am not sure of, but I have faith in my brother and his wife with the research they have done in regards to husbandry and migration patterns, etc.

I have helped raise them, socialize them, and breed them, but I am not as heavy on the research side.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by camb

that is a rash absolute!

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That is an uncapitalized sentence!

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

That is an uncapitalized sentence!

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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

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All non-migratory animals inbreed... snakes are non-migratory

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I agree that that statement is a bit of an oversimplification. It is more correct to say that all non-migratory animals have the potential to inbreed. And personally, I would contend that even migratory animal have that same potential to inbreed because migration does not necessarily equal out-crossing because most herds/flocks/whatever tend to migrate as a whole and not scatter to the winds. Also, you have to consider that just because an animal is not migratory does not mean it does not travel. An animal may not migrate but it does not necessarily have to stay in a defined "territory", it can simply start moving once it is born and bumble along from point A to point B to point C to point D etc and never actually pass the same way twice...

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The way that I see, is that the genomes, are a more simplified genome. Its not as complex like said human.

Lets call them letters for a second....

If a human genome has A B C D E F & G

And snake genome has A B C

You have less of a chance to get a genetic defect, because of the simplicity.

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Actually there are a few flawed assumptions there.

First is that snakes, because they are further down the evolutionary ladder than us, are necessarily "simple" in a genetic sense. Amoeba are some of the simplest life out there and they are also some of the most genetically diverse. There are frogs with 2n = 70 and chickens are 2n =76 (humans are 2n = 46 in case you were wondering.) IDK what BPs have but I know a few snakes have been logged @ 2n = 36 so they are probably not that far from us in terms of chromosome count. Which, in and of itself could also mean next to nothing because what you would need for a true comparison is the total base count of the genome. The humane genome is ~3 megabases. IDK if anyone has determined the size of any snakes genome so... Anyways, point of all this rambling being that snakes may not be as "simple" as you are making them out to be.

Second, an organism with a simpler genome (i.e. less total DNA) would be more prone to suffering from inbreeding because you are more likely to concentrate a non-desirable trait. Basically the more material you have to work with the more likely you are to have a bit of flexibility.

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We see issues with small human gene pools if a destructive trait gets concentrated.

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This statement actually hits the nail on the head though it does not have to be humans we are talking about. If you have a small pool there is a greater likelihood you will amplify the incidence of any detrimental trait because you are essentially purifying for its presence. If you can guarantee you are starting with a population that is totally free of any and all possible defects then inbreeding should be no problem. However it is nearly impossible to guarantee that first qualifier.

There is also an interesting proposal that inbreeding can be a good thing. It is rather counter intuitive but the argument is that by inbreeding you purify for the defect which then results in a collapse of the population due to accumulation of the defect. Survivors of the collapse are more likely to not carry the detrimental gene and so pass through a bottleneck and re-establish the population. Go through the cycle a few times and you weed out all the defective genes... This calls for an absolutely enclosed system and I do not advocate breeders try this but it is an interesting idea to wrap your mind around...