Huh, that's pretty cool! Now have they actually been able to tell whether those are true venom injecting fangs? I just got my first hoggies today and I'm absolutely loving them. I wonder if there's going to be more studies done on the hognoses comparing wild ones to the CB ones we keep to truly determine whether or not their "venom" is more potent based upon what they eat or if it's generally the same in WC compared to CB ones.
11-25-2008, 04:18 PM
Skiploder
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
Quote:
Originally Posted by anendeloflorien
Huh, that's pretty cool! Now have they actually been able to tell whether those are true venom injecting fangs? I just got my first hoggies today and I'm absolutely loving them. I wonder if there's going to be more studies done on the hognoses comparing wild ones to the CB ones we keep to truly determine whether or not their "venom" is more potent based upon what they eat or if it's generally the same in WC compared to CB ones.
They are not venom injecting fangs per se. The venom enters the prey via a chewing action.
Their venom has nothing to do with the prey they eat. Their venom is not made of any alkaloid components - which are the main toxins in the amphibians that make up a part of their diet. Studies on heterodon venom have revealed that it is comprised of standard snake toxin families.
Hoggies make their venom in dedicated protein secreting glands - totally different toxin types and production mechanisms.
Keep in mind that there is a distinction between the compounds used by animals and plants as chemical defenses against ingestion by a predator (toads/frogs). These are simple chemical compounds which is in contrast to the more specific and complex multi-protein venoms utilized by snakes.
11-25-2008, 04:25 PM
anendeloflorien
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
Very cool! Thanks for the info. The only reason I asked about the correlation between what they eat in the wild and what they eat in captivity was because that seems to be peoples popular myth about why hognoses are non-venomous in captivity. Thanks for clearing that up!
So are these fairly new findings, or has this information been around for a while? I'd just hate to see the wrong people people in government get ahold of information like that. All they need to see is the words "venom" or "fangs" and they immediately start peeing their pants and calling people who keep those "dangerous" animals crazies while they call for people to register their animals.
I know that here in NH it is illegal to keep any type of venomous animal unless it is for educational purposes so if they decide to classify hoggies as "venomous" I'd have to either give them up (which I could never do) or risk fines and other things.
11-25-2008, 04:36 PM
Skiploder
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
Quote:
Originally Posted by anendeloflorien
Very cool! Thanks for the info. The only reason I asked about the correlation between what they eat in the wild and what they eat in captivity was because that seems to be peoples popular myth about why hognoses are non-venomous in captivity. Thanks for clearing that up!
So are these fairly new findings, or has this information been around for a while? I'd just hate to see the wrong people people in government get ahold of information like that. All they need to see is the words "venom" or "fangs" and they immediately start peeing their pants and calling people who keep those "dangerous" animals crazies while they call for people to register their animals.
I know that here in NH it is illegal to keep any type of venomous animal unless it is for educational purposes so if they decide to classify hoggies as "venomous" I'd have to either give them up (which I could never do) or risk fines and other things.
The information has been out there for awhile - things just tend to get confused on the Forums.
Technically, all colubrids, with the exception of elaphe, lampropeltis and pituophis are venomous. Heterodon are opistoglyphs and while this is still a primitive delivery system, it is more advanced than those seen, for example, in garter snakes.
11-25-2008, 06:32 PM
Skiploder
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
I think that the best tack for the community to take is to stop the misinformation. Educate people on the difference so that the conflicting information goes away.
1. Yes heterodon are venomous.
2. They are not dangerous to people.
3. The symptoms of an envenomation are mild and are not attributable to being "allergic" to the bite.
4. Their fangs are not used for deflating toads, they are used for introducing venom.
5. Eating toads does not make them more venomous.
6. Hognose snakes do not use their venom for defense. It is used on prey. The risk for envenomation is due to feeding confusion.
Venomous colubrids should be ranked by risk. Hognoses pose none. Rufous beaked snakes pose a moderate risk. Philodryas pose a high risk as do rhabdophis, macropisthodon, oligodon and thelatornis.
People have a tendency to either overhype or underhype the risks associated with rear fanged snakes. Getting the right information out is crucial.
The recent Reptiles magazine article on Rhamphiophis was a prefect example. Yes rufous beaked snakes make wonderful captives, but they are considered to be a "warm" opistoglyph and their venom is quite formidable. Can they kill a human? Probably not - a good envenomation will result in definite symptoms on an adult - what happens if a child gets a serious dose of their neurotoxic venom? How will the species be looked at then?
Writing an article without discussing the proper risks involved with keeping this species may hurt the hobby down the road. The problem is that we tend to lump all rear-fanged colubrids into one pot.......it's a matter of time before that bites us in the you-know-what.
11-25-2008, 06:42 PM
Snakemaster24
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
My rear fanged venomous is pretty cool they don't really know how powerful the venom is but I would suspect the it is around the moderate level maybe a little less. But they are nice
11-25-2008, 06:47 PM
Snakemaster24
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
I just relized I have handled a rhabdophis it was at the manassas VA show Outback reptile had it it was a cool snake pretty docile. I like the selection at outback
11-25-2008, 07:14 PM
Skiploder
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakemaster24
I just relized I have handled a rhabdophis it was at the manassas VA show Outback reptile had it it was a cool snake pretty docile. I like the selection at outback
Keelback snakes (rhabdophis) have documented human fatalities.
Rhabdophis are one species that stores toxins they ingest from toads and store/secrete them in their necks.
11-26-2008, 06:02 PM
Hardwikk
Re: Hognose Rear Fangs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
I think that the best tack for the community to take is to stop the misinformation. Educate people on the difference so that the conflicting information goes away.
1. Yes heterodon are venomous.
2. They are not dangerous to people.
3. The symptoms of an envenomation are mild and are not attributable to being "allergic" to the bite.
4. Their fangs are not used for deflating toads, they are used for introducing venom.
5. Eating toads does not make them more venomous.
6. Hognose snakes do not use their venom for defense. It is used on prey. The risk for envenomation is due to feeding confusion.
Venomous colubrids should be ranked by risk. Hognoses pose none. Rufous beaked snakes pose a moderate risk. Philodryas pose a high risk as do rhabdophis, macropisthodon, oligodon and thelatornis.
Writing an article without discussing the proper risks involved with keeping this species may hurt the hobby down the road. The problem is that we tend to lump all rear-fanged colubrids into one pot.......it's a matter of time before that bites us in the you-know-what.
I like the fact that you added #6. Hognose snakes should not be banned b/c of their venom since its non-lethal and they never use it (or their jaws for that matter) to defend themselves anyway.
