raising mice for food question

i was wondering if theres a link on here since i'm still kinda new where i could get info on raising mice and rats for food sources for my snakes...

i'm looking for set-up ideas and feeding where to seperate mice from each other stuff like that thanks

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/f...play.php?f=127 <-rats
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/f...play.php?f=128 <-mice

Here's my method:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=77619

so is it more money to raise your own with tanks food stuff like that or better to go the route of frozen thaw and the smell does that bother any one....

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

so is it more money to raise your own with tanks food stuff like that or better to go the route of frozen thaw and the smell does that bother any one....

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It depends on how many mice you need and whether you can buy your supplies in bulk.

Cost:
I only have 4 snakes and spend about 12dollars a month keeping my mice and rats alive (this is on pine bedding and on lab blocks). I come out about even. It would cost me the same amount to buy frozen online. Last time I ordered frozen cost me 52 for the mice and 53 for shipping, so 95$ and the amount I bought was gonna last me 7-8months. ergo 95/8= 11.88. So yeah even. (This is not counting initial setup which was expensive, I'd say I spent over 100dollars on tubs, waterbottles, food dishes, chew toys and materials to build hoppers.)

Why I do it:
So I come out even and end up having to do more work to keep up with them. But I enjoy it and like watching the birth cycle, I also feel better because I know where my feeders are coming from and that they're fresh. Mice kept in the freezer for 7-8months are not near as nutrious as a mouse I hand fed and killed fresh for my snakes.

Production:
I currently have 8 female mice and 1 male (the post i gave you was before I got things perfect) and also keep 4 rats. With my current setup I acutually produce more mice than I need but I feed them off when they are young and feed several smaller sized items at a feeding instead of one large mouse. I end up with about 20pups every 2 1/2 weeks.
I acctually am not breeding my rats at this time they're just pets so some of the cost of keeping isn't being replaced.

Smell:
I keep my mice in tubs which minimized the amount of smell and change bedding every 3-4 days. Very important to buy bedding in bulk cause you go through a lot. Cleaning often is really the only way to keep the smell down. My mice are 2-3 to a tub or mothers plus an entire litter. I try very hard not to let overcrowding occur because then the smell grows expontieally. Another thing to think about is I only keep one male breeder. Males smell worse so since I only have one my mice dont' smell as bad.

Hope that helps,
feel free to keep asking Q's

do you keep them in the same room with the snakes and are you useing plastic tubs cause i would be afraid of them chewing through it so one male for 4 girls i could handle that i going to be breeding and i trying to think of my cost and stuff like that....

also i got alot of questins but where is god place to buy the starting mice petco petsmart kind of places i also want to know do feed your snakes the live mice or do you pre-kill...

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

do you keep them in the same room with the snakes and are you useing plastic tubs cause i would be afraid of them chewing through it so one male for 4 girls i could handle that i going to be breeding and i trying to think of my cost and stuff like that....

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I do keep them in the same room as the snakes, I live in a one bedroom apartment and don't want to keep animals in my bedroom so they all inhabit the living room. There are pics of my setup in my gallery.
Here: http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/...imageuser=9958

I've rearranged since then. Moving my snakes to a seperate shelf. I'm at work right now but if you're interested I'll post some pics when I get home tonight around 7pm.
Mice have trouble chewing flat surfaces (I'm not saying it doesn't happen it's just unlikely) so as long as they can't get their mouths around an edge you don't have to worry. I've only had one issue which was when a water bottle fell out of it's hole and they chewed the hole open. I caught it in time though and no one escaped.

As far as breeding goes, my setup is way elaborate for how many I actually need. You could just buy one large tub and throw 1male and 3girls in and wait. They'd produce more mice than you could dream of, 3litters every 3weeks (i.e. 3girls + 3week gestation and back to back pregnacy). Keeping them together all the time is the colonie method and works fine. It's also cheaper cause you only need one tub, one water botter, ect..

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

also i got alot of questins but where is god place to buy the starting mice petco petsmart kind of places i also want to know do feed your snakes the live mice or do you pre-kill...

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I got most of my mice from petco, it's a fine way to start. I also got a few off craigslist (people with acidental litter giving them away, they probably came from petsmart of petco too). They produce about 10 pups per litter, fewer in the first litter, try not to breed them too young cause it can make them sick. And don't worry about inbreeding, mice can be 'line' bred for generations with no ill effects. You may want to introduce some new blood every few genrations.
My last petco buy (about a month ago) I got some black females and one of them is just now showing signs of a possible tumor, but it may only be an absess from a wound. Either way her offspring is still fine to use as feeders I just won't be keeping any of her young back for future breeders.

I mostly p/k or freeze for later use, my new red tail boa gets live and p/k because I'm in the process of switching her to f/t.
If a litter is the right size then I p/k and feed fresh, the extras get frozen for later so that I always have the size I need in the freezer. I've also got a grow out bin because my red tail and my bp eat adult mice so I have to keep some alive past the size my corn and king eat.

Make sense?

totaly makes sence i know your lleaving for work so i'll wait till you get back but when you freeze the pinkies i think it was how long does it take for them to to sleep for say.... and how do you know what mouse is ready to be selected for supper....

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

totaly makes sence i know your lleaving for work so i'll wait till you get back but when you freeze the pinkies i think it was how long does it take for them to to sleep for say.... and how do you know what mouse is ready to be selected for supper....

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I'm acctually already at work, slow day. So I'm on the pc, no worries, I just can't post pics cause I don't have them with me.

I've actually never had to p/k a pinkie my corn and king eat fuzzies/hoppers and my red tail and bp eat adult mice. I've been useing cervical dislocation to p/k lately. And I always p/k before freezing, in my opinion putting any live animal in the freezer is cruel.

The mouse is ready to be supper when it's the right size. The only time a mouse would not be a good meal is if it was sick. Lucky for me I've not had any sickly mice except for one mother who had her pups too young, she never gained her weight back and I fed her off rather than risk killing her with another pregnacy. She was safe to feed off since it wasn't a disease that made her sick.

Baby mice grow fast.
See this post: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=79467
Subscribe to it if you want to see them continue to grow up. This is one of the groups I plan on keeping back in the grow out bin. And I'll be posting more pics of them tonight when I get home.

another note on pinkies. When my snakes we're eating pinkies I just fed live. Pinkies and Fuzzies are hard to p/k without damaging them, plus they pose little to no threat to my snakes.

So yeah, I p/k hoppers and adults to feed or freeze anything smaller than a hopper gets fed live or left to grow up.

You need to be careful with this though cause your snake might get 'addicted' to live and not want to eat p/k or f/t. I was ordering f/t and feeding that long before i started breeding my own so my snakes will take either. Except my BP who is afraid of live.

i know this sounds dumb but what does p/k mean. and what is you do before you freeze them i not sure of all the small words we use on here yet..:confused:

i just figured out what it means duhh anyway what is the best method on doing this to hoppers and full grow mice i hear so stories about brown bags and stuf but i don' know if i can do all that...:oops:

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

i know this sounds dumb but what does p/k mean. and what is you do before you freeze them i not sure of all the small words we use on here yet..:confused:

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p/k is prekill

f/t is frozen/thawed

cervical dislocation is when you, in short, break the mouses neck killing it instantly (it's instant if done right, botching the process can be traumitizing) I do this by placing a stick (usually my feeding tongs) behind the neck and pulling back on the tail, this disconects the spine from the skull.

So I p/k by cervical dislocation before feeding, if I freeze them first then thaw and feed they're f/t.

Any other Q's? It's okay to ask I was completely lost for a while when I started.

You may also want to check out this: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69059
It's a list of the common abbreviations used in the herp comunity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

i just figured out what it means duhh anyway what is the best method on doing this to hoppers and full grow mice i hear so stories about brown bags and stuf but i don' know if i can do all that...:oops:

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In my opinion the best method is CO2 chamber.

Really read 'breeding feeders my method' thread: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=77619
the section Killing Method explains CO2 in depth.

I'm using cervical dislocation right now cause I"m broke (I need a new CO2 tank and I can't buy one right now) and cerival dislocation is free to do. I also haven't been killing in large batches lately. Large batches is where CO2 is really useful. for just one or two I use cervical dislocation.

tail will not fall off i handle the p/k though that stuff don't bother me just seems like time consuming thats all i just trying to get all my cards in line before i decide on breeding my own mice and rats for my snakes i have three right now and frozen just seems so much more money to me so i thank you for everything ou have told me... my wife is going crazy i'm telling her everything i'm learning here..she loves the snakes but hates the whole feeding thing lol but she's cool with everything else...

do you keep certain male and females after they are born to use in future breeding or do you just buy them and if so how do you choose that very one with so many running around like the female also..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

tail will not fall off i handle the p/k though that stuff don't bother me just seems like time consuming thats all i just trying to get all my cards in line before i decide on breeding my own mice and rats for my snakes i have three right now and frozen just seems so much more money to me so i thank you for everything ou have told me... my wife is going crazy i'm telling her everything i'm learning here..she loves the snakes but hates the whole feeding thing lol but she's cool with everything else...

do you keep certain male and females after they are born to use in future breeding or do you just buy them and if so how do you choose that very one with so many running around like the female also..

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No the tail won't fall off. I'm treating that as a questions so I hope it was.

Breeding mice can be very time consuming, I check on them everyday, change water and add food about every other day, change bedding every 3-4 days, and do various other little tasks throughout the week.

Frozen does seem like a lot of money, mostly cause it's one big chunk, I actually prefer spending 10-12dollars a month rather than 90 every 6months. Regardless of which is cheaper it's just easier when I don't have to plan for a 100 dollar bill all at once.

My current breeding group hasn't been going that long but I do plan on keeping females back for future breeders once my current ones get older. I try to pick ones who's mother gave me big litters, was healthy, and had a good personality, because these things can be genetic. But really any healthy mouse can be held back and it depends on what's available when I need new ones.

I'll be keeping back a male next time, but the one after that I'll buy so that new blood is always entering my breeding colony. I won't have to worry about the males as often because they live longer and can breed almost till death.
Females tend to die sooner, breeding takes alot out of them, and they stop being fertile when they get old.

thanks for the tips one last question then i'm going to sleep what size tubs did you say i'm i'm going to walmart tommorrow and may pic up two of the with lids?

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

thanks for the tips one last question then i'm going to sleep what size tubs did you say i'm i'm going to walmart tommorrow and may pic up two of the with lids?

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I keep mine in 16qt tubs floor dimentions 18"x11" and about 7" high. but that only houses 3-4 adult mice comfortably or 2 adults and a litter. My grow out tubs are 30qt. they've got double the floor space but are the same height. Be sure the tubs are smooth on the inside so there's no place for the mice to chew.

Yes with lids, use a soldering iron or hot glue gun (without glue) to melt air holes and a hole for the water bottle. You can also drill holes just be careful not to crack the plastic.

People also use rodent racks, which is a shelving unit where I tubs slide in and out without lids. Search "rodent rack" or "rat rack" in one of the feeder forums if you want to see those.
But one or two tubs and 3-4 mice should cover your needs, racks are for people who need lots and lots of rodents.

Here's my current setup

Shelf
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/p...t/DSCF3517.jpg

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/p...t/DSCF3519.jpg

The inside of a tub, 13day old babies.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF3515.jpg

Homemade food hopper.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/p...t/DSCF3516.jpg

well got my tub today they only had one let man making all those holes took forever i love the set up is it nessasary (sorry about spelling) to put the mesh in the front?

NO!!! dont' put the mesh in front. I made a big mistake doing this.

The tubs with the mesh are acctually 60qt and hold my rats and all they do all day is throw bedding out the front. WHAT A MESS!!! So don't do it.

The smaller tubs are the ones I use for mice, they just have 3 rows of holes on the sides and 2 rows along both sides of the lid. I keep my holes about an inch and a half apart. And one hole for the water bottle.

It should be more than enough air.

So yeah, pay attention to the way I did the smaller tubs, ignore the big ones.

yeah it looked like it would make a mess pushing all the bedding out side the tub....

hey truth, I'm just wondering if you ever have too many mice, seeing as how you only have four snakes. Do you just freeze them when you get too many, or do you even get too many? I've never thought of breeding my own, but then again there is a monthly reptile show just down the street that rodentpro goes to so I don't have to pay shipping on frozen rodents (saves a ton of money) but I think it'd be cool just to enjoy the breeding process like you said.

i wish i had a show around like that so i wouldn't have to pay shipping but the more i'm learning here breeding i think is going to be so much rewarding...

punyhuman, I'm not sure if you've mentioned this, but just out of curiosity, how many snakes do you have?

i have two at the moment a female and and a male picking up another this weekend after thanks giving from a shelter tat was resuced from a meth lab

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Originally Posted by Smith285

hey truth, I'm just wondering if you ever have too many mice, seeing as how you only have four snakes. Do you just freeze them when you get too many, or do you even get too many? I've never thought of breeding my own, but then again there is a monthly reptile show just down the street that rodentpro goes to so I don't have to pay shipping on frozen rodents (saves a ton of money) but I think it'd be cool just to enjoy the breeding process like you said.

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No Fair!! The only show round here is once yearly and 2-3hrs away by bus (i dont' have a car) I missed it this year cause of family obligations. :(
If I had a show near me I'd probably still be buying frozen. It's the shipping that kills.

We'll I keep a running ad on my local craigslist offering extras up for cheap mostly trying to offset my cost, I don't get that many hits. I've got one regular who buys pinkies so my litters get thinned out early.
I freeze big batches but I don't end up with extras unless I want extras. I rotate my male so I control how many pregos I end up with and when. So I just give my females longer breaks between litters when I don't need as many.

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Originally Posted by punyhuman07

i wish i had a show around like that so i wouldn't have to pay shipping but the more i'm learning here breeding i think is going to be so much rewarding...

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Yeah, I do it cause I enjoy it. It wouldn't be worth it at this point if I didn't. Since I come out even, or over cost if you figure in start up expenses.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

punyhuman, I'm not sure if you've mentioned this, but just out of curiosity, how many snakes do you have?

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what types do you have?

I think I've said, but I have a '07corn (eats fuzzies), '06 cal king (hoppers-weanlings), '05ball python (adult mice, small rats), and a '08 red tail boa (weanling-adult mice).

I have three ball pythons, 1.1 normal, 1.0 pastel. It is really nice to have a show once a month, not only for feeders but just to look at all the different snakes and I get to meet a lot of local breeders. I don't have the room now, but in another couple of years I plan on adding a few more balls and breed them so I'm going to be looking to set up some feeders eventually (though not for a while). I actually found this thread to be the most useful one I've read on the subject

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smith285

I have three ball pythons, 1.1 normal, 1.0 pastel. It is really nice to have a show once a month, not only for feeders but just to look at all the different snakes and I get to meet a lot of local breeders. I don't have the room now, but in another couple of years I plan on adding a few more balls and breed them so I'm going to be looking to set up some feeders eventually (though not for a while). I actually found this thread to be the most useful one I've read on the subject

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I'm actually planning on breeding in the future too. So my rodent colonies will come in useful.

But for now, I do it cause I enjoy having them, it's really not cost efficient for just 4 snakes.

Glad you think this was useful. Stick it in your faves and give the link out to people who need similar help.

i have a 08 cinny and 07 normal right at the moment