Fluorescent ball pythons...I kid you not.

These guys are working on it.

http://www.neonmice.com/faqs.htm

It's right there in the FAQ--they said so. lol... Can you imagine what that would do with an albino? Or a Leucy? Or piebald?

It was only a matter of time before someone starting messing with the genetics on a more scientific level. DNA inserting....hmmm...not sure how I feel about this one.

I hope that any animals with genetic modification, other than selective breeding, are not cross bred in such a way that you don't know if your animal has "unnatural" genes in it.

I don't like it. While it is kind of interesting and maybe a little bit cool on its own, I think it takes away from the natural beauty of our snakes. Sure, you'll be able to get a ball python in some crazy color that you've only dreamed of, but what's the point? For myself, a lot of the fun in working with ball pythons and breeding them is the search for that perfect snake.

Aint gonna happen. For one thing, its clearly stated that they like to keep the flourescentness in their lab, so they neuter their male mice. I remember reading a thread about neutering balls impossible without hurting them. SO if what im saying is correct they would not want to sell them if people could reproduce them. Someone feel free to correct me, id like to know more.

Am I missing something here? Where does that link make any reference to them doing this for ball pythons?

edit..nevermind...small blurb about them at the bottom.

Weird....:O

I find it stupid to even mess with nature like that.Whats the point in modifing anything every creature has all the beauty it needs alone.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

It was only a matter of time before someone starting messing with the genetics on a more scientific level. DNA inserting....hmmm...not sure how I feel about this one.

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I completely agree, I am not entirely sure about how I feel about this either and to be honest I see no real point in it. What is the benefit of making a mouse flourescent?

It kinda confuses me a little bit, that people in this thread are against it with ball pythons, but in the previous GMO thread, no one had a problem doing it to fish.

I have an issue with genetically modifying just about anything: food, snakes, fish, rodents, people....

I'd be willing to bet that 8 out of 10 members here, maybe slightly less as some of you are actually health conscious, have eaten genetically modified friut, vegetable and quite possibly meat.

Talk to your produce manager, not the guy putting it out, the guy in charge and your butcher.

You may be surprised.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'd be willing to bet that 8 out of 10 members here, maybe slightly less as some of you are actually health conscious, have eaten genetically modified friut, vegetable and quite possibly meat.

Talk to your produce manager, not the guy putting it out, the guy in charge and your butcher.

You may be surprised.

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So that's what happened to me?!



I knew this wasn't normal.... :oops:

Looks like HULK jaja

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Originally Posted by whitesnake12

I find it stupid to even mess with nature like that.Whats the point in modifing anything every creature has all the beauty it needs alone.

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guess you'll never be breeding for morphs?

100% of the people here have eaten genetically modified food, and at least most of you enjoy genetically manipulated animals.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

So that's what happened to me?!



I knew this wasn't normal.... :oops:

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Ah, wait, what?
I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

guess you'll never be breeding for morphs?

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This is incorrect. Where did the first morphs come from? They were naturally found in the wild. They are a NATURAL genetic mutation. Not a Genetically Implanted or Modified being. There is a big difference between breeding to produce certain genetics and implanting genetics directly into the animal.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'd be willing to bet that 8 out of 10 members here, maybe slightly less as some of you are actually health conscious, have eaten genetically modified friut, vegetable and quite possibly meat.

Talk to your produce manager, not the guy putting it out, the guy in charge and your butcher.

You may be surprised.

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That might be a correct figure.
I'm the one left out given where I get my food and the people I know who grow it... I don't shop at 'regular' stores :oops:

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Originally Posted by Jyson

I completely agree, I am not entirely sure about how I feel about this either and to be honest I see no real point in it. What is the benefit of making a mouse flourescent?

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epifluorescense is useful in visualizing live specimens' functioning parts. You can add the protein coding sequence to introns that code for blood cells, bone cells, skin cells, fat cells - whatever and that's where you'll find the GFP (Green Fluorescent Protein) once the animal in question fully develops. Some of the "neon mice" on that page have what look like glowing skeletons - that's because the GFP sequence was put into a bone coding region and it's the bones that are glowing as a result.

Doing this allows function of live cells to be viewed and teaches us more about the animal in question and ourselves as, for example, muscle cells in mice are in a lot of ways similar to muscle cells in humans.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

This is incorrect. Where did the first morphs come from? They were naturally found in the wild. They are a NATURAL genetic mutation. Not a Genetically Implanted or Modified being. There is a big difference between breeding to produce certain genetics and implanting genetics directly into the animal.

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Can you tell me what i said that was "incorrect"?

Morphs are a result of genetic flaws resulting in mutants. Mutants of species are either more or less successful than "wild types" of those species. All individual animals have mutations - most are hidden and carried. Some are expressed - and most of those are detrimental. The ones who have produced and expressed successful mutations are the founders of the species you see today.

GFP is a protein found in jelly fish. Somewhere, eons ago, a mutation caused a jelly fish (then a morph) to glow under a certain wavelength of light, which did benefit this animal somehow and allowed it and its offspring to out-compete non-glowing members of the species.

All that you do when you make a GFP mouse is take a mutation designed by another life form that found it beneficial in its natural environment and add it to the genome of a mouse - an artificial morph, but a morph none-the-less, and just as likely in nature as a glowing jelly-fish. It's possible that a mouse has naturally mutated to make GFP in the past, but not being likely to benefit from that mutation, did not replace the main population of mice with glowing ones.

With morph snakes you are still creating artificial morphs in that you are pre-determining pairings that would likely not happen in the wild and creating a disproportionate quantity of the number of "morphed" animals for aesthetic purpose - animals that would not be at an evolutionary advantage in their natural habitats, just like these mice.

Just because you're using the animal's natural mating and birthing processes to fulfill your intent doesn't make what you're doing any better. I'm using the animal's natural cellular development and transcription processes to make it a GFP mouse. Any time you exert control over other life forms by taking advantage of their design, you're doing the same EXACT thing that a biologist in a lab is doing.

Don't think for a second that there's a high road here.

I challenge anyone here to tell me that they have never eaten a banana.

Oooo ooooo!! Me!!! Me!!! I haven't had a banana in years and years...decades, actually. And besides that, they are not very local to where I live ;)

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Originally Posted by starmom

Oooo ooooo!! Me!!! Me!!! I haven't had a banana in years and years...decades, actually. And besides that, they are not very local to where I live ;)

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The question was (my own, and wilomn's) not whether you do eat them, but whether or not you ever have.

# of those who have eaten modified food? 100% absolutely

# of those who have modified food in their regular diets? remains to be seen, i guess.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

The question was (my own, and wilomn's) not whether you do eat them, but whether or not you ever have.

# of those who have eaten modified food? 100% absolutely

# of those who have modified food in their regular diets? remains to be seen, i guess.

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I had a banana in a smoothie back when I lived in Virginia... 3 decades ago. When did they start to modify them?

100% is an unforgiving percentage...careful of not having scoogie room :P

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Originally Posted by starmom

That might be a correct figure.
I'm the one left out given where I get my food and the people I know who grow it... I don't shop at 'regular' stores :oops:

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We as a society have been genetically altering our food supply for decades -- whether it be for larger tomatoes or bigger breasted chickens - even if you are farming your own veggies there is an extremely high probability that the stock from which your food was originated was modified.

i dont know if anyone noticed but these are rats not mice! look at the pics!

also if you would of payed attention to the episode on the history chammel about rats last week you would of seen that tetonic produces these and this trait is used when they add other genes besides the color gene! so these RATS (not mice)could in fact be altered genetically in other ways that could be unhealthy for the rodent in question!:colbert:

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Originally Posted by starmom

I had a banana in a smoothie back when I lived in Virginia... 3 decades ago. When did they start to modify them?

100% is an unforgiving percentage...careful of not having scoogie room :P

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unless you think the banana that was in your smoothie looked like this:

http://www.apsnet.org/education/Less...ages/fig18.jpg

...your banana was modified.

Diploid (bananas capable of bearing seeds) are practically inedible. We've been taking advantage of triploid (sterile) bananas since before we really knew what genetic modification was.

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Originally Posted by nixer

i dont know if anyone noticed but these are rats not mice! look at the pics!

also if you would of payed attention to the episode on the history chammel about rats last week you would of seen that tetonic produces these and this trait is used when they add other genes besides the color gene! so these RATS (not mice)could in fact be altered genetically in other ways that could be unhealthy for the rodent in question!

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They use this gene to look at what's going on in mice who are intentionally given the genes for a genetic anomaly homologous with one present in humans. That does not mean that all mice that are given GFP coding regions have one of the controlled genetic problems - they can make healthy GFP mice just as readily as inflicted ones. It's even easier.

The genetic problems you're thinking of are likely located elsewhere on the genome - probably not even the same chromosome - they have nothing to do with GFP.

what picture are you looking at? I'm sure if they know enough to alter genomes, they know what species they're working with.

holy heck, people.

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Originally Posted by nixer

i dont know if anyone noticed but these are rats not mice! look at the pics!:

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To me some looked like mice but some looked like hairless rats. I wonder what a regular white or hairless rat looks like under a black light. I know most white things look pretty bright and glowy under black lights. Kinda creepy if you ask me. lol

I really don't see the difference between this and selectively breeding morphs to get a specific morph. Neither are natural (yes morphs occur in the wild but would never breed and surviver) and neither are helpful (to the animal).

Some people claim they are totally against genetically modified foods... but the argument hits gray areas when you think about the number of starving people in the world, and the number of people who cannot afford "organics" and "natural" foods. Genetically modified foods are a potential answer to world hunger problems.... So how can one label them as "bad"?

By the way, has anyone considered that this "neon mice" site might be a fake? It'd be real easy to edit those pictures, and the "store finder" links are all broken...

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Originally Posted by icygirl

By the way, has anyone considered that this "neon mice" site might be a fake? It'd be real easy to edit those pictures, and the "store finder" links are all broken...

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I don't think they are - they're the same place that's responsible for glofish, and glofish are available at petco now.

GFP mice are pretty common in science since they were first made in ...98? i think? it wouldn't surprise me at all to find them in the pet trade. I just wish they'd sell me a non-neutered male :rolleye2:

BTW i think i screwed up a while back when i said you'd add the sequence to introns to make mice glow - introns are non-coding regions and adding sequences there would have exactly no effect. I think you have to add sequences to promoter regions to get things to change, but don't quote me on that.

Lousy no edit button (i understand why it goes away, it's just frustrating sometimes when you want to use it for good as opposed to evil lol)

I think those mice look ugly. I wonder how the balls do or will look. Makes me wonder how they will look not only on a normal but when mixed into the morphs. A red glow in the dark supper black pastel..........

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Originally Posted by Morphie

BTW i think i screwed up a while back when i said you'd add the sequence to introns to make mice glow - introns are non-coding regions and adding sequences there would have exactly no effect. I think you have to add sequences to promoter regions to get things to change, but don't quote me on that.

Lousy no edit button (i understand why it goes away, it's just frustrating sometimes when you want to use it for good as opposed to evil lol)

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Exons are the protein coding regions of a gene......

Usually you add the coding regions of the transgenic gene with a strong promoter recombinantly attached.

The whole piece of DNA that then is genetic transplanted into the genome is sometimes called a genetic cassette.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Exons are the protein coding regions of a gene......

Usually you add the coding regions of the transgenic gene with a strong promoter recombinantly attached.

The whole piece of DNA that then is genetic transplanted into the genome is sometimes called a genetic cassette.

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LoL thank you. I'm still a noob at this stuff - last year I wouldn't have even understood what your icon is all about.

Are you handy with a microscope? we could try to clone these mice and make viable males MUAHAHAHAHHAA.

(if neonmice™ or their legal advisors are reading this post, let it be known that i'm kidding and don't have the equipment to clone these mice anyway - i'd probably have better luck making my own strain :8:)

;);)

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Originally Posted by Envied Reptiles

I think those mice look ugly. I wonder how the balls do or will look. Makes me wonder how they will look not only on a normal but when mixed into the morphs. A red glow in the dark supper black pastel..........

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they;re not :glow in the dark: per-say. They have a protein that is excited by a particular wavelength of UV light (it's my understanding that they can be caused to glow at narrower or broader wavelength ranges depending on what a given research project requires, but this part's irrelevant) the protein, excited by the UV wavelength, emits its own wavelength of light that your eye perceives as green - red - whatever.

You would basically have to have a special light on them all the time to make them glowy, and I'm pretty sure that this kind of constant exposure will eventually cause bleaching that will be restored only by new cellular growth - or maybe that's just the GFP drosophila larvae that I was looking at.

Anyone want GFP fruit flies? I know where to get *those* - we could cross breed them to wingless flies and produce glowing wingless flies for people's dart frog tanks!

holy crapola. i never would have thought... it's just WEIRD looking. do they ust look normal colored in regular light?

whats next, a catdog? like from the cartoon. personally, i want to see one of those mice in real life. don't agree with it, but i REALLY want to see one.

i remeber there being a law banning colored chics. like people that would put food coloring in chicken eggs and customers would buy the cute little chicks but they would eventually molt the feathers and become adult chickens and alot of people would abandon them. so they were banned, because they were like "novelty" pets or something. people didn't want them after they grew up normal.

On the subject of bananas, in appx. 12 or maybe 20 years, I forget which, there will be no more of the typical banana most of us see in the market.

There is a fungus that has no cure killing them off.

Bye bye nanners.

As far as genetic manipulation, no matter what any of us think there will always be someone who thinks otherwise.

Whether we like it or not, it's going to happen.

Ever wonder what's going on that we never hear about? How about in places that are good at secrets like Korea and South America. Do you suppose there may be some secret stuff happening in Europe or Africa?

Eh, probably not.

Right?

Guys...this thread is kind of disappointing me...there's a lot of questions being asked that were answered on the page I linked. I feel like the collective attention span is so low people can't even bother to read something before they comment on it...or maybe can't read it.

I'll go through a few, though.

1) Of course it's real. I called to put in an order for some Swiss-Webster mice to put in my racks, because the local mice look like crap. This is the same company that is shipping live mice through the mail. (micebymail.com). When I talked to them, they said they didn't have a lot of stock available right now, but they had enough for my order. They were low on the Swiss-Websters because they were focusing more heavily on breeding the Neon mice, and expected to start shipping them to pet stores in a week or two. He gave me the url for the site.

Fluorescent mice were created quite some time ago, of course--this is just the first release of them to the pet trade.

2) It's exactly the same process that was used to make glofish. Mice are very prolific breeders, and there are obvious financial and environmental reasons not to release fertile mice to the general public. MOSTLY financial. Anyone could start breeding them, and outcompete these guys rather quickly. Their use for science is covered in the FAQ. Their use as pets is "COOL, FLUORESCENT MICE!". What do people keep pet mice for anyhow?

3) Um...yes, they are mice. It clearly says "mice". It also clearly shows photos of mice. The captions under those photos also clearly explain that the mice will be available in furred and furless (gremlin) versions. So yes, those are hairless mice...hairless mice have been around for quite a long time now, just not hairless FLUORESCENT mice. They also show a video of a partially hairless mouse. I think it's green.

4) Where does it say they are working with ball pythons? It says that in the FAQ in the section where they talk about creating other fluorescent species. They're also working with rats, gerbils, and hamsters. And other animals, apparently, though they didn't specify. I know this specific genetic modification has already been done with rabbits and cats, though. As for neutering ball pythons, of course they aren't going to try to sterilize the ball pythons. This is the US they're operating in, not Africa. There is no risk of the animals breeding with wild populations. There's also no point in trying to sterilize them--ball pythons are sloooow breeders. They didn't neuter the glofish, either. My roomate has some glofish, and they bred in the tank, and produced baby glofish. You aren't allowed to breed and sell the glofish--it would be illegal to do so--but they aren't silly enough to say you can't breed them for your own amusement. I imagine they will put similar restrictions on glo-ball-pythons. lol

5) They aren't available yet because they have a couple weeks left before they start shipping to pet stores. A fluorescent green mouse would make one heck of an interesting xmas gift.

6) What difference does it make whether a chance mutation produced something new and bizarre, or it was deliberately introduced via an expensive process? The end result is an animal that looks different, either way. What is this 'unnatural' claim? Do you think that the genes of living things are in isolation and never cross? Biological studies have proven that bacteria and viruses can carry genes between species! You would think the way people talk that everything humans do is unnatural--that humans are unnatural. I mean, what are we, then? Artificial? Aliens? If a beaver dam is natural, then so is a glofish.

Personally, I LOVE genetic engineering. It's great fun. The neon mice certainly aren't suffering--they're going to live out their priveleged $40 lives being pampered by proud human owners. The glofish aren't suffering--they certainly are given more care in an aquarium than their ordinary zebra fish brethen. The same will be true of other genetically modified pets. This is opening a door, to be sure...what lies on the other side of it...that's going to be VERY interesting indeed.

Real genetic engineering of our pets can do more in the long run than create fluorescent pets. It could rid dog breeds of problems like hip displaysia, increase their lifespan, and alter their form, even their personality, to suit the breed's purpose even better. It's a shortcut. Sure, it makes all that hard work we did before seem more of a waste, but computers make accounting by hand look like a waste too--we don't miss that, at least not anymore.

I think people afraid of the ethics of genetic engineering have no sense of humor. They just don't want to see green children. I do. :D I also want to see cabbits, and tiny little winged elephants and flies with the heads of people, darnit. Mostly because, even though such a thing would just be a fly, it would completely freak out people who really need to be freaked out. ^_^

We've done enough damage to the world's ecosystems just being us, and modifying things the hard way. At least genetic engineering offers the potential to fix a FEW of those mistakes. It could create more, sure, but it's hardly going to do worse than we've already managed to do.

Besides, if you offered your kids a tray of genetically engineered pink fluorescent broccoli, I bet you'd have a MUCH easier time getting them to eat it.

I personally think it's going to be FOREVER before they are able to get GFP into a reptile - consider you have to get the genome altered, get it in an egg, and then get that egg to hatch - so like - surgery. And depending on how much development goes on inside the parent snake, you might have to start the process before the egg is even laid.

(the first thing i wanted to do with GFP when i learned about it was put it in ball pythons. It seems a pretty tall order)

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Originally Posted by Morphie

I personally think it's going to be FOREVER before they are able to get GFP into a reptile - consider you have to get the genome altered, get it in an egg, and then get that egg to hatch - so like - surgery. And depending on how much development goes on inside the parent snake, you might have to start the process before the egg is even laid.

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Well, to do it efficiently, before you do any of that you first need the genome sequence for the ball python so you can determine where to best put the GFP tag. And to the best of my knowledge no one has gone out and sequenced the whole ball genome yet (anyone got a spare million bucks and the willingness to lend a few normal BPs for blood draws?)

Once you have that the process should actually be pretty "straight forward" in terms of already existing techniques.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The neon mice certainly aren't suffering--they're going to live out their priveleged $40 lives being pampered by proud human owners. The glofish aren't suffering--they certainly are given more care in an aquarium than their ordinary zebra fish brethen. The same will be true of other genetically modified pets.

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Bet'cha they won't be used as feeders...:D

They are interesting, but they only glow under a special light.

Would it even work with ball pythons? The rat's hair doesn't glow, would scales? I don't know that much about the genetic make up of scales so I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by Mike Russell

Would it even work with ball pythons? The rat's hair doesn't glow, would scales? I don't know that much about the genetic make up of scales so I have no idea.

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This is why I said you need the genome sequence to first before you take the next step. In these specific mice the hair does not glow but there are GFP animals that have glowing hair. ANDi the monkey is an example. IIRC the rabbits have glowing hair too... If the GFP tag is specifically inserted in a chosen location one could get them to glow, even in a patter specific manner. If you just do a pell mell GFP insertion then who knows what will and will not glow...

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Originally Posted by asplundii

This is why I said you need the genome sequence to first before you take the next step. In these specific mice the hair does not glow but there are GFP animals that have glowing hair. ANDi the monkey is an example. IIRC the rabbits have glowing hair too... If the GFP tag is specifically inserted in a chosen location one could get them to glow, even in a patter specific manner. If you just do a pell mell GFP insertion then who knows what will and will not glow...

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do you have any citations of animals with glowing hair? I'd be interested to see that - i was under the impression proteins would be somewhat dysfunctional in the non-aqueous environment that is dead cells that make up our hair and therefore hair couldn't be caused to glow.

But i might just be horribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

They use this gene to look at what's going on in mice who are intentionally given the genes for a genetic anomaly homologous with one present in humans. That does not mean that all mice that are given GFP coding regions have one of the controlled genetic problems - they can make healthy GFP mice just as readily as inflicted ones. It's even easier.

The genetic problems you're thinking of are likely located elsewhere on the genome - probably not even the same chromosome - they have nothing to do with GFP.

what picture are you looking at? I'm sure if they know enough to alter genomes, they know what species they're working with.

holy heck, people.

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i guess you didnt watch the whole show that included this info directly from the first place to even sequence the rats genes.

i guess that uni. just lied about it

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Originally Posted by nixer

i guess you didnt watch the whole show that included this info directly from the first place to even sequence the rats genes.

i guess that uni. just lied about it

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... ?

I don't watch TV to learn about science, generally. I get my science from publications and texts (and my professors).

I don't know why you're still talking about rats. The mouse was the first gfp mammal to be made in a lab, and it's the only gfp mammal that's commercially available right now, afaik.

Yeah, the fluorescent mice have been available to laboratories for a long time now, and in just a couple of weeks, everyone can have one.

Rats won't be available that way for some time.

Like glofish, I don't expect these mice will look exactly normal under normal lighting either--like glofish, blue lights will show them off best during the day, and blacklights will show them off best at night. But they're going to look interesting under normal lighting too.
They do not glow in the dark--they fluoresce when exposed to certain wavelengths of light. Those wavelengths are found in white light, but the effect is more pronounced when the proper wavelengths are concentrated.

Fluorescent rat: http://kumikae01.gen-info.osaka-u.ac.../GreenRatE.cfm
Fluorescent cats: http://www.care2.com/news/category/animals/fluorescent
Fluorescent pigs: http://www.trendsforpets.com/pets/glowing-pigs/
Fluorescent rabbit created as a work of art: http://www.medienkunstnetz.de/works/gfp-bunny/

Possible failed fluorescent monkey: http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/art..._01/ANDi.shtml (He carries the genes, but doesn't fluoresce yet).

Last but definitely not least...

Spider goats: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/889951.stm
biopharmaceutical hen: http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/D...wChickens.html
biopharmaceutical sheep: http://library.thinkquest.org/C0122429/history/1990.htm

Mice are the most commonly created transgenic animals today, rats probably come in second place.

Lots of technical stuff on why GFP animals (fluorescent animals) aren't that hard to make: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2202/3/7

You do NOT have to know the entire genome of an animal in order to introduce GFP genes. Genetic engineering is much messier than you realize. And all you really need is a freshly laid ball python egg, and a male and female ball python, to get started. (And a lot of money and special equipment).

The beauty of these transgenic animals is that once you have a pair of them, you don't have to genetically engineer any more. You can go on and breed them normally and they'll keep on reproducing that added trait.

Once GFP production is added to the genes of some ball pythons, they will be able to be bred and crossed into other ball python lines, the same way we do to spread other genetic traits. I imagine this will cause a big stink--but people will get over it, since these animals will undoubtedly be worth quite a lot of money. It seems obvious that white snakes will show off GFP best. Their scales are clear. I predict that in the long run, GFP ball pythons will be just another morph...if this company ever actually gets around to producing them, as they hope to.

I actually got to do this process in my Genetics lab with E. coli. It was very cool to see.