Symptoms?

My Western seems a little strange right now. He seems to have lost his hiss, and he has a habit of "yawning" every few seconds. Are these symptoms of something?

P.S. Yesterday was the 1st year anniversary of Charon's purchase (I bought him 11/18/07).

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Originally Posted by Onua Nuva

My Western seems a little strange right now. He seems to have lost his hiss, and he has a habit of "yawning" every few seconds. Are these symptoms of something?

P.S. Yesterday was the 1st year anniversary of Charon's purchase (I bought him 11/18/07).

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How long does he sleep after his birthday-party? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

When he yawns can you see anything that may be stuck in his mouth (piece of bedding)
If not then he may have a R.I. (is he weezing or making clicking/popping sounds, drooling, bubbles coming out of his nose/mouth) if so a visit to a herp vet will be needed to get proper antibotics for him.

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Originally Posted by FastDad

How long does he sleep after his birthday-party? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Sorry! that was the first, what I thought by reading with my bad english understanding.

To me it sounds, like he had something stuck in his mouth

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Originally Posted by FastDad

How long does he sleep after his birthday-party? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

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I doubt he knew it was :P.

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

When he yawns can you see anything that may be stuck in his mouth (piece of bedding)
If not then he may have a R.I. (is he weezing or making clicking/popping sounds, drooling, bubbles coming out of his nose/mouth) if so a visit to a herp vet will be needed to get proper antibotics for him.

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How does a snake get R.I.?

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Originally Posted by FastDad

Sorry! that was the first, what I thought by reading with my bad english understanding.

To me it sounds, like he had something stuck in his mouth

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It could be. I hope he likes walnut shells.

Yes, sounds like an RI but one of mine did that for a while. Sometimes he does it and it's his way of saying 'hello.'
Anyway, check for anything stuck in its mouth. check for some 'poo' every couple of days. If the water doesn't get lower, it isn't eating, and it's nor pooing it could be an impactation risk and it is trying to vomit everything up. Very uncommon but if i remember correctly you use walnut shells. I still use walnut shells with many of my hogs and have had no problem. (but i only use shell after they reach a certain weight).
So just keep an eye out and make sure they are drinking lotsa water. worse comes to worse it's off to the vet for a force feed of medicine.

Being burrowers it may well be that he has gotten some bedding stuck in the corner of his mouth or possible further down.

Open his mouth and look, maybe even give him a flushing under the faucet.

I'd also move him off the walnut and put something that is larger for him to burrow in. Pine shavings or aspen have worked fine for me for many years. I've never used walnut or coconut but I have used sand. I like the wood beddings the best.

Although he is a Hogger, he acts like a Rosy Boa: he only burrows ocassionally. I don't think anything is stuck in his mouth, and he did eat at the last feeding.

No sarcasm intended, but how much time do you actually spend watching him?

My hogs will shove all the bedding to one side of their box then shove it back then do it again. Repeatedly.

I don't often see them doing it but the evidence is there.

Hopefully he'll be AOK from here on out.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

No sarcasm intended, but how much time do you actually spend watching him?

My hogs will shove all the bedding to one side of their box then shove it back then do it again. Repeatedly.

I don't often see them doing it but the evidence is there.

Hopefully he'll be AOK from here on out.

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No need to worry about about the sarcasm. He only comes out for "exercise" around 2 times a day, and I have watched him a few times. Sometimes he "submerges" under the sand only to come back up in a few seconds, but I think that's all the burrowing he does usually.

If yours is like mine and loves to climb it may have wacked it's jaw on something, unintentionally. If no signs of bubbles, or anything caught in its mouth i think you are good, for now, but would continue to watch it VERY closely.
Watch for any sand movement. Wilomn has a good point. Watch for the sand moving to one side, or back. My active girl likes to move everything away from the water bowl to heat up her water with the heat tape and take a nice bath. My active boy has soooo much bedding that you can't tell he's shifted any of it. When i look in i can see he emptied his hide all the way down to the glass floor and stays there for heat. A little sauna.
Watch for any poos, especially since it just ate. If you see a poo make sure it's dark forest green or a black color, not watery. A light green is a sign of a parasite infection or resporitory infection. Same thing happens to humans, especially if you eat too many Lucky Charms :8: I learned that in bio class at Rutgers :P
Anyway, if it passes everything it ate with no regurgitation you're probably in the clear and have a little quirk. But, be carefull, any bubbles or mucus coming from the mouth or nope is BAD. Watch the tounge flicker. If it's long and slow go to the vet, it's a sign of labored breathing and fever. If it's quick and cautious you're good.
Anyway, keep us updated.

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Originally Posted by whytepizza

Watch the tounge flicker. If it's long and slow go to the vet, it's a sign of labored breathing and fever. If it's quick and cautious you're good.

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This is incorrect, which would lead one to suspect that your poo analysis, which I have never heard before, is also suspect. I was unaware that reptiles could run a fever as well.

Rutgers you say?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is incorrect, which would lead one to suspect that your poo analysis, which I have never heard before, is also suspect. I was unaware that reptiles could run a fever as well.

Rutgers you say?

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Not a fever, i'm sorry for the wrong terminology there, but at times a snake cannot keep a good temperature. their bodies do not allow them to tell how to regulate their temperature. Similar to how snakes burn themselves on heat rocks because they cannot feel the heat or how a frog will allow itself to be boiled if it's put into colder water to begin with.
Tongue flicker is a common way to tell if they have some sort of RI. It's not perfectly accurate but a good way to judge whether to look into an RI or not. Any sick hogger will flicker long. The poo check is straight forward. Green is no good. An RI will allow other organisms to enter the body. Color is the easiest way to physically see if there may be a problem. But, if you see green poo (and i'm talking really green) it's best to see a vet quickly.
Again, the best way to see if it is an RI on your own are bubbles within the mouth or nose or really anything that isn't nice and smooth. The best way in general is a vet visit.
If things seems pretty normal by now and the 'yawn' hasn't worsened still keep an eye out, but don't worry so much or everything you see will make you think it's sick.
Wilomn, i do suspect some sarcasm in you last statement. Please, any questions that you have about me i request that they are directed towards me and me alone. Any issues with what i say you are more than welcome to disagree with but do not be demeaning in your words. Nothing personal. And yes, Rutgers. Cook college to be exact.

I've never heard of diagnosing an RI by poop colour.

One learns daily if one is not careful.

Have you ever watched any of the crots? The pit vipers? Those native to the Americas in particular?

I'd be willing to wager you haven't.

Take a look at a few, and that's just one genre, and then tell me if you still want to hold with your tongue flicking theory.

It's not 100%.

i'd think it'd be unlikely he'd have an RI... but very likely substrate got in his mouth.
i used to keep mine on walnut shells but after two known instances of getting that crap in his mouth i switched him to newspaper or aspen, depending on what i have.

anyway, hognoses don't even need suplemental heat, so i really doubt he has an RI unless he has some sort of infection that led to it.

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

i'd think it'd be unlikely he'd have an RI... but very likely substrate got in his mouth.
i used to keep mine on walnut shells but after two known instances of getting that crap in his mouth i switched him to newspaper or aspen, depending on what i have.

anyway, hognoses don't even need suplemental heat, so i really doubt he has an RI unless he has some sort of infection that led to it.

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One thing to note here is that I don't feed him on the walnut; I feed him seperately on a shoebox lid, so its pretty hard for him to have ingested anything. Also, what do you mean by Hoggers not needing supplelamental heat when they thrive with temperatures higher than most colubrids?

myself and most others i know personally have better luck with lower temps. my herp room is 80 degrees or so, thus i do not use suplemental heating.

why would hoggers need more heat than most colubrids when they spend alot of there time burrowed underground where it is cool?

There are several species of hognoses.

The western does need heat IF you want it to be active during the winter months. They are fine without though HERE in So. Cal.

Your climate or typical indoor conditions may require artificial heat even in the warmer months.

There are few hard and fasts.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I've never heard of diagnosing an RI by poop colour.

One learns daily if one is not careful.

Have you ever watched any of the crots? The pit vipers? Those native to the Americas in particular?

I'd be willing to wager you haven't.

Take a look at a few, and that's just one genre, and then tell me if you still want to hold with your tongue flicking theory.

It's not 100%.

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Yes, i have, but only Noth American and not every single species. When trying to get my biology degree with a focus on Forestry. We didn't start talking about venemous snakes until this past semester and the affects of the toxins and poisons from an organism or an enviroment so i'm not too positive of anything like a tongue flicker from venemous (or those you listed) because i do not have the hands on experience with that species. and like i said, the flicker is not 100% accurate, just a good tool to use.
Keep in mind, a pit viper and most native North American snakes like those you listed are not a Hognose, nor anything close to a Hognose. Corn snake, on the other hand is a similar (yet larger) rear fanged coulibrid and has many similarities with a hognose, but is still quite different. Also, there is a large difference between a Nasicus, Platirhinos, and Simus and cannot all be treated the same, yet they are all Heterodon. Copperheads look very similar to an eastern hognose upon first glance. That does not mean that you can treat a disease in a hognose the same as you would in a copperhead. Pygmy Rattlers have the similar dorsal spots as a western or plains hognose. Again, it does not mean that treating you hognose the way you would a pygmy rattler is correct.
Now, as for this sick hognose. Awesome that you don't feed him on the walnut shell, i didn't think you did but i'm sure we're just covering all bases :-) Keep in mind these guys are very resiliant to almost everything. I had one of mine eat a poisonous newt (thanks to my daughter) and she (the snake) nearly died, became very lethargic, etc. She recovered fully and is probably more active than before with a few force waterings. It's how they learn. If every time they got sick or ate something bad they died there wouldn't be any hognoses for us to adore! :D
The other guys are right about supplimental heat, but it depends on location, location, location. For me, i'm in PA and i need supplimental heat to make sure they stay nice and warm, especially for my southerns and mexicans, especially this time of year, and because they are near a window. My easterns and westerns don't need much heat, but i keep some on them just in case. If it gets too cold for a western (constantly below 65) and they aren't brumating they can get an RI from it but that is usually it it's around 50 constantly. But if your heats are good, even if they hit 50 at night (which i don't reccomend) but are up into the 80's during the day than i wouldn't worry too much.
Again, just keep an eye out and if it gets worse or something else seems odd talk to a vet. Keep us updated on the status! Has the yawning changed, stopped, or gotten worse?

I missed the bulletin about corns being rear fanged. Could you post that info for me, I like to stay on top of things.

As far as the rest of your statements about the appearance of some species of snakes being similar even though they themselves are quite physiologically different, it's irrelevant.

So what if pygs look like hogs? So what if copperheads resemble other species? Will you now tell me that you treat a light skinned vegan differently than you would a dark skinned carnivore even if both were homo sapiens? Would you treat a chimp differently than you would an ape? They look similar yet are different.

You can treat many hots just like you would rear fanged, or even corn snakes when it comes to medicating.

When you learn some more, and not just how to string words together, even I can do that, then you would be more believable. For now, and really rutgers?, for now, you're not exactly batting 1000.

Tongue flick may well be a SINGLE factor used to determine whether or not an INDIVIDUAL snake is healthy or not and can in GENERAL be used as an observatory tool, but it does NOT indicate an RI.

I notice you made no mention of poop. Are we off the diagnosing RI by poop colour kick too?

Perhaps had you worded your initial attempt at assistance differently, not spoken in absolutes while being absolutely incorrect, then we would not be here with you defending yourself, poorly and me just trying to figure out when corns grew fangs.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I missed the bulletin about corns being rear fanged. Could you post that info for me, I like to stay on top of things.

As far as the rest of your statements about the appearance of some species of snakes being similar even though they themselves are quite physiologically different, it's irrelevant.

So what if pygs look like hogs? So what if copperheads resemble other species? Will you now tell me that you treat a light skinned vegan differently than you would a dark skinned carnivore even if both were homo sapiens? Would you treat a chimp differently than you would an ape? They look similar yet are different.

You can treat many hots just like you would rear fanged, or even corn snakes when it comes to medicating.

When you learn some more, and not just how to string words together, even I can do that, then you would be more believable. For now, and really rutgers?, for now, you're not exactly batting 1000.

Tongue flick may well be a SINGLE factor used to determine whether or not an INDIVIDUAL snake is healthy or not and can in GENERAL be used as an observatory tool, but it does NOT indicate an RI.

I notice you made no mention of poop. Are we off the diagnosing RI by poop colour kick too?

Perhaps had you worded your initial attempt at assistance differently, not spoken in absolutes while being absolutely incorrect, then we would not be here with you defending yourself, poorly and me just trying to figure out when corns grew fangs.

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Alright, listen, I don't feel an importance to fight with you because you obviously won't listen no matter what i say. I am not attacking you personally yet you are attacking me, if you feel the need to prove me wrong show me documentation that proves what i am saying is wrong. I'd be more than happy to give you plenty of resources, text books, and writings that show what i am saying is right. Research it before you discredit it. If you can show me written evidence of something different i will eat my words (one in the hand is worth two in the bush). I never said you could tell if an animal had an RI through their feces, i said that the color might tell if it has some sickness, i never specified RI or otherwise.
The snakes you asked me about were venomous species. You asked if i researched them and i rebutted by telling you that you cannot compare those species to a hognose and that i am not knowledgeable about those species compared to a hognose. And yes, you would treat a chimp differently than an ape. For one thing they are different sizes, eat different foods, have different habits so their medications and symptoms would vary depending on the individual. It's the same with snakes and with humans! No two snakes are the same, no two people are the same. A vegan who complains of a stomach ache will not be treated for food salmonella poisoning because they would not have contact with it. Someone who likes to eat raw chicken or raw eggs on the other hand may. Treatment and analysis of a disease or sickness is solely by each individual. There are some general similarities within the species, i am just pointing out some in my previous posts.
As for the fangs. Bryan Grieg Fry did research to show that all coulibrids, except for of lampropeltis, pituophis, pantherophis are technically venomous. Any venomous animal has a means to pass the toxin onto another organism.
As for the Rutgers comments you keep making. Yes, Rutgers. Cook Campus which is Cook College. I currently do distance, satellite learning since the time i moved. The University is called: Cook College at Rutgers, School for Environmental and Biological Sciences. Are you going to ask to see my GPA, all my previous exams, the paperwork for my GI bill, and a letter of recommendation, too?
Now, this thread is for helping this person discover what is wrong with their individual snake. I do not like the fact that you are attacking me and my character without giving me any evidence to the contrary of my statements. If you feel the need to argue you are more than welcome to do it privately or start a thread which has a sole purpose of attacking and arguing with me. Heck, you can even entitle it "Why Whytepizza Doesn't Know Jack Crap About Snakes" since you're not outright saying it. I don't care. But this thread is for Ryan and to help him figure out what's wrong with his snake. Nothing said by either you nor I, recently, is of any consequence to his problem so i will ask politely that this argument be finished on a different thread.
Ryan, i am sorry for disrupting your thread. Please, accept my apologies.

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Originally Posted by whytepizza

Alright, listen, I don't feel an importance to fight with you because you obviously won't listen no matter what i say. I am not attacking you personally yet you are attacking me, if you feel the need to prove me wrong show me documentation that proves what i am saying is wrong. I'd be more than happy to give you plenty of resources, text books, and writings that show what i am saying is right. Research it before you discredit it. If you can show me written evidence of something different i will eat my words (one in the hand is worth two in the bush). I never said you could tell if an animal had an RI through their feces, i said that the color might tell if it has some sickness, i never specified RI or otherwise.
The snakes you asked me about were venomous species. You asked if i researched them and i rebutted by telling you that you cannot compare those species to a hognose and that i am not knowledgeable about those species compared to a hognose. And yes, you would treat a chimp differently than an ape. For one thing they are different sizes, eat different foods, have different habits so their medications and symptoms would vary depending on the individual. It's the same with snakes and with humans! No two snakes are the same, no two people are the same. A vegan who complains of a stomach ache will not be treated for food salmonella poisoning because they would not have contact with it. Someone who likes to eat raw chicken or raw eggs on the other hand may. Treatment and analysis of a disease or sickness is solely by each individual. There are some general similarities within the species, i am just pointing out some in my previous posts.
As for the fangs. Bryan Grieg Fry did research to show that all coulibrids, except for of lampropeltis, pituophis, pantherophis are technically venomous. Any venomous animal has a means to pass the toxin onto another organism.
As for the Rutgers comments you keep making. Yes, Rutgers. Cook Campus which is Cook College. I currently do distance, satellite learning since the time i moved. The University is called: Cook College at Rutgers, School for Environmental and Biological Sciences. Are you going to ask to see my GPA, all my previous exams, the paperwork for my GI bill, and a letter of recommendation, too?
Now, this thread is for helping this person discover what is wrong with their individual snake. I do not like the fact that you are attacking me and my character without giving me any evidence to the contrary of my statements. If you feel the need to argue you are more than welcome to do it privately or start a thread which has a sole purpose of attacking and arguing with me. Heck, you can even entitle it "Why Whytepizza Doesn't Know Jack Crap About Snakes" since you're not outright saying it. I don't care. But this thread is for Ryan and to help him figure out what's wrong with his snake. Nothing said by either you nor I, recently, is of any consequence to his problem so i will ask politely that this argument be finished on a different thread.
Ryan, i am sorry for disrupting your thread. Please, accept my apologies.

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LOL

Do you proof read what you post?

Do as you will, it's not my job to edumacate you, it's rutgers.

And REALLY? Rutgers?

Who'd a thought?

By the way, did you or did you not say that corns are rearfanged in one post then state in another that pantherophis is not venomous?

Can ya see why I'm skeptical of almost everything you post?

Site away, I'm always up for learning new REAL things.

Okay, I was going to stay out of it but people who spout off like the wrote the book on herpetology, then say "hey I'm studying biology in college" just piss me off... Seriously? Would love to see those references to corns being rear-fanged.

You want some sources to actually educate yourself? Start with Harry W Greene. He DID write the books on herpetology. You might find one called "snakes: the evolution of mystery in nature" pretty frickin useful. I suggest you start with the section on venomous snakes and the morphology of fangs vs teeth.

The point is this. If you want to be reputable, know what you are talking about and back it up with legitimate sources or firsthand experience. Otherwise, sit there and bite your tongue.

~Kat

and yes, I have a BS in biology and am finishing a masters if you'd like to have a go at me, as well.

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Okay, I was going to stay out of it but people who spout off like the wrote the book on herpetology, then say "hey I'm studying biology in college" just piss me off... Seriously? Would love to see those references to corns being rear-fanged.

You want some sources to actually educate yourself? Start with Harry W Greene. He DID write the books on herpetology. You might find one called "snakes: the evolution of mystery in nature" pretty frickin useful. I suggest you start with the section on venomous snakes and the morphology of fangs vs teeth.

The point is this. If you want to be reputable, know what you are talking about and back it up with legitimate sources or firsthand experience. Otherwise, sit there and bite your tongue.

~Kat

and yes, I have a BS in biology and am finishing a masters if you'd like to have a go at me, as well.

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Dang it Woman, don't step in front of me like that.

You're ruining my fun.

He's chasing his own tail right now, go sit down and study.

Sorry. *slinks off to study






~Kat

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Sorry. *slinks off to study






~Kat

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Oh, it's alright.

Gotta admire your spunk.

corns aren't rear fanged or venomous... none of the Elaphe/Pantherophis/Pituophis are from what i've read. even some of the other colubrids that do have a Duvernois gland don't have enlarged rear maxillary teeth.
anyone else like reading scientific papers for fun or am i the only nerd in this thread?

*slinks off to study as well.............

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

corns aren't rear fanged or venomous... none of the Elaphe/Pantherophis/Pituophis are from what i've read. even some of the other colubrids that do have a Duvernois gland don't have enlarged rear maxillary teeth.
anyone else like reading scientific papers for fun or am i the only nerd in this thread?

*slinks off to study as well.............

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Colin you're right. Fry has stated that with the exception of elaphe, pseudelaphe, pantherophis, pituophis, lampropeltis and their like, all colubrids produce venom.

However, not all of the remaining venom producing colubrid genera are opistoglyphic.

.......and to further what's all ready been stated - pantherophis are neither venomous or rear-fanged.

Reading scientific papers is fun..........reading the forums, however, can be infinitely more entertaining.

either or

neither nor

Scientific minds know when to use which.

Colin, anytime you want to swap notes or start a geek group, I'm in. ;)

Ditto that, skip. Entertaining to the nth.



~Kat

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Originally Posted by wilomn

either or

neither nor

Scientific minds know when to use which.

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;)

Back on topic.....listen really close to your hoggie for a clicking sound when he breaths. I have had a few hoggies with RI's that did not get mucus in the mouth, but had the clicking when they breathed. General rule for treating an RI is to boost the heat and get some antibiotics from herp vet. I find injections much easier that oral meds. Just keep a good eye on him, and you may want to move him to papertowels until you are 100% satisfied that he is fine. It makes it much easier to observe bowel movements. Goodluck with him.



As to the bright green poo, what I was told by my vet is that it is a sign of trouble with the kindeys. Dehydrated snakes will often poo the bright green until their kidneys get back on track (if they are not to damaged from the dehydration). Just what I was told.

Ya know whytepizza, we've all had our rears handed to us. You're nothing new there.

If you're done sulking, unless I've totally missed any posts by you since your last one in this thread in which case please disregard this post, come on back and learn some stuff from some people who care about reptiles and accurate information about them.

Obviously you can learn something here, and I don't mean from me, and there exists the possibility that you may have something to teach. (other than how to delivery a straight line)

Unknot your knickers and get over it. Your place will be taken soon enough and before you know it you'll be an oldtimer.

It's amazing how off-topic threads can get... Hoggers won't bite you unless it's a feeding response (aka not in general). There's no need to discuss it and definately not here! Now, back on topic: Charon is hissing a lot louder than before and he hasn't made any popping noises either. I think he lived through it but I'll check on him anyway. Thanks for your (plural) advice.

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Originally Posted by Onua Nuva

Now, back on topic: Charon is hissing a lot louder than before and he hasn't made any popping noises either. I think he lived through it but I'll check on him anyway. Thanks for your (plural) advice.

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Glad things seem a bit better. Keep us all updated! I know we're all hoping for the best.