Does attitude get passed down?

Hey everyone, so i thought i would start this up, do you think that a snakes attitude is passed down threw genes? Do you have experence with this a clutch of eggs that had a sweet mother and the snakes were also sweet? Or just the other a nice mom and mean little babies? Post your ideas just thought this would be something interesting to see what people think and see what people have seen threw experience.

Not to speak too geekish, but I personally believe that yes, there is genetic predisposition toward 'aggressive' behavior. That said, I think there is also a tremendous amount of variability within a given species, as well. In a way, it all goes back to the whole 'nature vs nurture' debate, right? Are we a product of our genes or of our environment. Current theory holds that it is a combination of both and I tend to agree.


Cheers,
Kat

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Not to speak too geekish, but I personally believe that yes, there is genetic predisposition toward 'aggressive' behavior. That said, I think there is also a tremendous amount of variability within a given species, as well. In a way, it all goes back to the whole 'nature vs nurture' debate, right? Are we a product of our genes or of our environment. Current theory holds that it is a combination of both and I tend to agree.


Cheers,
Kat

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Very true Kat, nice point. :gj:

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Not to speak too geekish, but I personally believe that yes, there is genetic predisposition toward 'aggressive' behavior. That said, I think there is also a tremendous amount of variability within a given species, as well. In a way, it all goes back to the whole 'nature vs nurture' debate, right? Are we a product of our genes or of our environment. Current theory holds that it is a combination of both and I tend to agree.


Cheers,
Kat

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I wholeheartedly agree. However, we have to consider the psychological spectrum of a snake. Nature vs Nurture would fall more under environment as snakes do not need Nurture to survive, but if a snake goes unhandled, it may lose it's good temperament.
I have a corn that became very skittish with little handling and afraid, I also have snakes that are afraid despite the handling amount, and some that are sweet even when not handled for a long time. This tells me, that genetics can lead to their ability to adjust to a pet environment. Some snakes, can not adjust very well and even with attempted handling, may not ever be handled. While others could adjust, and are just born at a different starting level of temperament.

It is most definitely both, but I think genetics can not be ruled out here. I don't think it's genetically 'one or the other' but a bigger spectrum, and like Kat said, with different species too. Some may be born with a bad temperament and be handled into a calm temperament. Some may never be able to be handled, and some could have always been handled.

I am sure I have heard SA - Becky discuss a snappy female that produces snappy babies before as well. Not sure if it was tied to the morph... *scratches around in grey matter* I think it was a Granite.

Temperment may be passed along certain morph lines... just a completely random and ill-informed thought.

Bruce

I know I've heard plenty of people talk about breeding for not only quality but personality as well. I think there's something to it.

This is pretty cool seeing what everyone thinks. Anyone had a nice male or female that bred and the babies were nice like the mom or dad?? just seeing if we can get someone to prove this or just say they think its true or not. :salute:

Yeah - I've had docile mothers beget docile babies -- but then the same girl will turn around and bred to a snippy male will throw little devils as well. It gets real confusing when you get the parents as sub-adults and you find out your docile dude was once a a little devil himself.

It's a little bit nature a little bit nurture. :D

I think it does also....

Umm, since ball pythons don't nurture they're babies, I think it's ALL nature.... And yes, I have definitely noticed that personality is a heritable trait, however the inheritance is not a simple form. I know that when I breed a snippy male to a certain docile female, most of the babies will also be snippy and resemble the father in personality. However when I breed the same male to a different docile female, all the babies will be docile and take after the mother for their personality. I haven't got a clue how to figure out how to guide the outcome, but I can see that personality is obviously a heritable trait.

Yes it sure can be passed down.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Umm, since ball pythons don't nurture they're babies, I think it's ALL nature....

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Ummm you take said snippy snake, treat him nice handle him often and he becomes a nice docile snake -- that is nurture -- :rolleyes:

Can I also just point out that 'nurture' is also doing things like momma wrapping the eggs in the wild, thermo regulating them, investing nice large yolks, etc. Nurture is not just based on social behavior, it also involves parental investment. In captivity, we humans obviously take over most of the nurturing.....


~Kat

I've seen hissy/striker adults produce babies that hiss and strike more than usual and in one case even seen it through 3 generations. For a while my meanest two snakes where a mother and daughter. I sold the mom (letting the owner know) but recently picked up a new striker adult that might be gravid so I'm far from out of the mean snake business yet. I was also a little disappointed to see that my two mojavies are hissy. I didn't own their mom as a baby and she is a bit ridged when handled so maybe they got it from her but it could have been the mojave father (breeding loan, don't know what he was like) too as the same mom's 07 baby is fine.

There is a general belief that aggressive ball pythons feed and maybe even breed better so unfortunately there may be some breeders actually selecting for aggressive ball pythons. In my case I'm just not being ruthless enough about eliminating it when paired with other genetics that I would like to keep.

I haven't produced a lot of snakes but I noticed that the clutches where mom and or dad eats f/t, all the babies switch over real quick to f/t. The clutches I have from live eaters are taking a lot longer to switch over. (I start offering f/t after 5 or 6 live feedings)

Is that just a coincidence?

I don't have any snippy adults, so I'm not sure of attitude. But I've had a couple babies that don't seem to be calming down much...

Like this girl - she currently holds the record for bites..
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...e/shedevil.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

Ummm you take said snippy snake, treat him nice handle him often and he becomes a nice docile snake -- that is nurture -- :rolleyes:

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I personally don't think that handling to calm them down works all that well. Most will calm down with age whether you handle them or not, so how can you tell which ones get calmer from the handling and which get calmer due to age? and those that don't calm down with age generally stay nippy no matter how much you work with them. Even those that do calm down with regular handling will often revert back to being nippy if you stop handling them regularly.

I just don't think that nurturing them plays any kind of a major roll in their personality.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I personally don't think that handling to calm them down works all that well. Most will calm down with age whether you handle them or not, so how can you tell which ones get calmer from the handling and which get calmer due to age? and those that don't calm down with age generally stay nippy no matter how much you work with them. Even those that do calm down with regular handling will often revert back to being nippy if you stop handling them regularly.

I just don't think that nurturing them plays any kind of a major roll in their personality.

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I'll disagree and leave it at that.

I think my daughter inherited my wife's shoot first and ask questions later attitude which we joke might have had something to do with ancestors who cut beating hearts out and rolled the bodies down the temple steps. But maybe she learned it from her mom? Hard to say ... lol.

i sure hope not because my yb female just tried to bite my arm through my sweatshirt 3 times!

I've heard that yellow bellies tend to have attitudes but haven't gotten to work with any yet myself. Are they universally hissy or even more likely to be bitters than average?

well i have an 07 female, an 08 male ivory, and an 08 male pastel yellowbelly they are all very hissy and they do tend to bite atleast out of my collection.

then again so is my het lavenders and my het superstripe

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Can I also just point out that 'nurture' is also doing things like momma wrapping the eggs in the wild, thermo regulating them, investing nice large yolks, etc. Nurture is not just based on social behavior, it also involves parental investment. In captivity, we humans obviously take over most of the nurturing.....


~Kat

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When studying the Nature VS Nurture concept in Psychology, we were told not to mistake Nurture for parenting. The psychologist who created the theory in the first place, called it Heredity VS Environment. Which is a much better wording, but generally the same thing.
The nurture concept should be seen as the environment and how that affects a persons personality, while the heredity/genetics should be seen as the personality that was derived by pure genetics.

Though there are theory's leaning one way or the other, some of the phenomenons with both are interesting, like the wild boy in the 1800s that could not talk but had no sensitivity to colder temperatures, as well as two twins who never knew each other and re-united after 25 years to find the same hair styles, personality, and even the same gift they had purchased each other.

Sorry, I feel like I was writing a paper.. ahha.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I've heard that yellow bellies tend to have attitudes but haven't gotten to work with any yet myself. Are they universally hissy or even more likely to be bitters than average?

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Mine is fine, she is actually pretty laid back and likes to explore. She may be big enough to go this year, we will see how the babies are....

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

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Though there are theory's leaning one way or the other, some of the phenomenons with both are interesting, like the wild boy in the 1800s that could not talk but had no sensitivity to colder temperatures, as well as two twins who never knew each other and re-united after 25 years to find the same hair styles, personality, and even the same gift they had purchased each other.

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That's really cool. Do you know where I can find out more about that. Do you still have notes/hand outs that have sources on them?

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I've heard that yellow bellies tend to have attitudes but haven't gotten to work with any yet myself. Are they universally hissy or even more likely to be bitters than average?

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My male is super laid back my female is very hissy.;)

My male YB has attitude but my 2 females don't

I tend to see some line of of aggrestion on super pastels and their babies.I have a female that was produce from a super, and was scared at first and hiss a little but chilled out quickly.Then when I was checking out her sibs before I bought her I saw some very snippy ones.I also belive that if the babies were born from a wild mother they tend to have a wild attitude.