"Trace patterns" & "Morph sibling" advertisements

I've seen advertisements where the seller proclaims a normal BP to have "trace patterns" or "trace colors" from the morph parents, even though it was one of the normals from the clutch. Also, advertising snakes as "Spider sibling" or "Mojave sibling" etc. For example, "This normal spider sibling BP shows some nice trace patterns from it's Spider parents" was one I've seen before.

I don't get it. Isn't a spider sibling normal still a plain old normal? Doesn't the snake either get the mutated morph gene or not? Is this so they can try to tack a few extra bucks onto the price?

I can't see anything wrong with putting "morph sibling" if it's true, but if the animal is truly a normal why would anyone care? And as far as "trace" patterns and colors, I don't see how than can be true.

some people like to know.

Otherwise, i just see it as an advertising gimmick, sort of thing. Makes them sound a little better... you know?

A normal, is a normal, is a normal. Sometimes breeders add those tags to show they were not imports. Other than that, they are just normals.

Is a spider sib just a plain old normal? Heck no! They are really cool if they have some nifty markings!

This is my Spider sibling girl Calypso!!

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...males6-1-1.jpg
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...n/DSCF0870.jpg

I find most siblings are much more interesting than actual normals but then again I think that I have the most beautiful spider sibling around >_<

it's a word game like a store selling "classic" Texan chili it's just regular chili but doesn't it sound better when it's classic Texan LOL just a word game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

Is a spider sib just a plain old normal? Heck no! They are really cool if they have some nifty markings!

This is my Spider sibling girl Calypso!!

I find most siblings are much more interesting than actual normals but then again I think that I have the most beautiful spider sibling around >_<

---

If you don't mind me asking, how much was she? Were you willing to pay extra because she is a spider sibling?

Also, if you were shown 20 BPs, and 5 were "morph siblings", the other 15 from normal parents, do you think you could tell which ones were from the morphs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

Is a spider sib just a plain old normal? Heck no! They are really cool if they have some nifty markings!

---

A normal is a normal, they come with different markings and colors whether or not they are sibling to a morph.

It doesn't hurt to know. I wouldn't pay any extra for a morph sibling.

a morph sibling may look nice but thats for the buyer to decide not the seller whose advertising a morph sibling as something special. i will agree that some morph siblings do look nice but so do some plain old non morph siblings. in the end they are all normals and all beautiful.

many normal bp's these days are morph siblings anyhow..

When you hatch out Co Dom animals, you get Co Doms and normals. There are no Hets, or special normals....

If you think about it, I would rather buy PH's than normals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by simplechamp

If you don't mind me asking, how much was she? Were you willing to pay extra because she is a spider sibling?

Also, if you were shown 20 BPs, and 5 were "morph siblings", the other 15 from normal parents, do you think you could tell which ones were from the morphs?

---

I paid $30 for her plus $50 shipping from TheVipersHouse. He has more for sale at this moment too! I personally would have paid a little more just because she is literally the most beautiful "normal" I have ever seen. She has pumpkin orange sides and she is really light colored. Now if you asked if I would have paid more for a sibling in general.. no probably not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

A normal is a normal, they come with different markings and colors whether or not they are sibling to a morph.

---

I am aware.

I wish I could find someone selling some "normal" albino siblings lol. JK I don't think that a snake beig a sibling to a morph has anything to do with its pattern. Maybe crazy patterns are coincidence but I haven't seen a larger percentage of "out of the ordinary" snakes from morph clutches, and trust me I look at alot of snakes. Every weekend is a adventure looking for neew places to go browse snakes and other herps. Just can't get enough of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

I am aware.

---

so then why did you say spider normals are different then a regular normal;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SUPERBALLS

so then why did you say spider normals are different then a regular normal;)

---

.... <_<.... cause I don't think my spider sibling is normal at all :P thats why! :)

As long as they're being sold at regular normal prices, I don't see what the big deal is.

I don't see tons of people doing normalXnormal breeding, so i'm assuming that most normals these days are morph siblings. If a normal I was interested in came from the same clutch as say a spider that I was buying I would want to know. Other than that I think it's just to make the ad more appealing to some.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Somed00d

many normal bp's these days are morph siblings anyhow..

---

Exactly. Hardly anyone breeds 2 Normals these days, so most of the CB normals out there would be morph siblings. & they're still normals.

As long as the snakes being sold were siblings to a morph, then there is NOTHING wrong with selling them as morph siblings. Usually this also means the breeder took a little extra care picking the normal half of the parents, since you wouldn't waste a morph breeding on a "ugly" normal. (not that I've yet seen a ugly normal, but some ARE more normal than others)
And as far as pricing, the seller can price their snake at ANY price they want to. If a seller has a normal hatchling for sale for $400.oo and someone sees it for sale, and buys it, then at the time of purchase, the seller and the buyer agreed that the price was fair and the deal is therefor fair. Could the buyer pay $10 for a normal at a show? Yes. But they wanted that snake, and did not mind paying $400.00 for it, so it's STILL a fair deal.
If you see a normal for $400.oo, and it says "spider sibling" on it, it's not a scam, since they are stating exactly what the product is, a sibling to a spider, and pricing it according to what the SELLER(or the currant OWNER) wants to recieve in exchange for it. You don't have to buy it, you can go up the street and get one cheaper.
I have a completely normal snake that many think is some sort of morph because she's so pretty with insane blushing.. she's a normal. I wouldn't take a normal price for her AT ALL. If I HAD to put her up for sale, I'd have a really high price, and I would not consider it to be scamming anyone, as long as I say "Normal ball python".
When you own the snake, you put the value on the snake. It might not sell, since no one else might value the snake as much as you do, but it's still your right to put the price you feel the animal is worth on it.

Its funny how people might stray away from ads with very little information about the animals in the ad, but then go ahead and take offense when the seller lists details on the lineage of the animal, as if they are trying to swindle extra dollars from the buyer.

Sellers really can't win....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

Is a spider sib just a plain old normal? Heck no! They are really cool if they have some nifty markings!

This is my Spider sibling girl Calypso!!

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...males6-1-1.jpg
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...n/DSCF0870.jpg

I find most siblings are much more interesting than actual normals but then again I think that I have the most beautiful spider sibling around >_<

---

Well the way I always figured it was more of a statement of quality breeding and care. Any decent, well respected breeder will use the highest quality normals available. Plus any codom morph's normal allele is probably high quality from the reason stated previously. So in essence the good looks of your spider sibling are a result of two good looking normals bred together. That is assuming the spider gene doesn't somehow jump allele's and mutate the normal gene its paired with. Thats my theory!!! Any rebuttals?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bc30629

Well the way I always figured it was more of a statement of quality breeding and care. Any decent, well respected breeder will use the highest quality normals available. Plus any codom morph's normal allele is probably high quality from the reason stated previously. So in essence the good looks of your spider sibling are a result of two good looking normals bred together. That is assuming the spider gene doesn't somehow jump allele's and mutate the normal gene its paired with. Thats my theory!!! Any rebuttals?

---

Just clarifying for myself and others.... so if breeding for good looking spiders someone would typically use a low patterned normal female in hopes of getting low patterned spiders. Then the spider breeder has a spider gene and a low pattern normal gene. When bred with another low pattern female the results would be probably some low patterned spiders but also some low patterned normals. Hence, patterning of sibs have more to do with selective normal breeding in past generations than any effect a morph parent would have on a normal sibling.

Sorry for the long winded response :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Its funny how people might stray away from ads with very little information about the animals in the ad, but then go ahead and take offense when the seller lists details on the lineage of the animal, as if they are trying to swindle extra dollars from the buyer.

Sellers really can't win....

---

very true but i think that many times the seller may use the term "morph sibling" in an attempt to make the "genetically normal" snake seem more appealing to new or first time buyers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Its funny how people might stray away from ads with very little information about the animals in the ad, but then go ahead and take offense when the seller lists details on the lineage of the animal, as if they are trying to swindle extra dollars from the buyer.

Sellers really can't win....

---

The seller could just as well be trying to squeeze a few extra dollars as they could be trying to provide lineage details. Even so, I said in my OP that I think it's fine to post "morph sibling" if it's true. Personally, I wouldn't care as long at it's a quality CB animal. If you know the animal is quality CB what is the advantage of knowing it's a morph sibling?

As stated above, morph sibling is a way of saying it's a better breeding than just whatever normals you have thrown together. More quality breeders are breeding morphs. Therefor someone who was breeding for a morph should have taken more time to pick out the normals used, and therefor the hatchlings should have nicer genetics from the nicer normals.
Is it always true? Not at all. Just like advertising "one owner" when you sell a car might mean that the car is trashed out completely. Is that true? Or is it indicative to most people that the car is in good shape because it has not been passed from owner to owner? It's truth and it does give a certain polish to the item, to say "One owner" or "morph sibling".
If you fail to do any research and buy a sibling thinking it's got certain genetics that it patently does not, is that the seller's fault or the buyer's fault? By that reasoning, you should not ever say "blushing" or "low pattern" as that could be construed as a genetic trait as well. There comes a point that the buyer is supposed to be responsible for what they put money out for.

I'll weight in on this discussion.;)

In my opinion, most buyers (that I deal with) want to know details like this. They want to know the linage, birth date and parents.:rolleye2:

To cut down on questions, I have begun to try and put everything that I think an interested buyer would want to know about the animal on sale (so I was and am considering putting in the clutch information)

From my breeding experience..morph siblings do tend to be more "eye-catching" than normal Normals. I do believe that the morph gene does have some impact on their coloration and patterning and while some may not think they are worth any more than a normal Normal, there are some that are willing to pay a bit extra for a very pretty pet or a very pretty patterned female morph sibling.

We already know that the patterns do carry weight on further breeding attempts, and that very unusual colors and patterns in Normals does make them more "special" than the regular Normal (Normals are not created equal).

So as long as the ad is honest, breeders/sellers are free to put whatever they want in their ads.:)

TheVipersHouse has the most beautiful Siblings I have ever seen! He is Kind and he is fair with his pricing. I love My sibling and I praise Vipers every chance I get.

Just so you know, I have given away PH Axanthic males, that are really banded, and stunning, nice Pastel siblings, Sulfur siblings, Mojave siblings, Spider siblings, and many other Co Dom Siblings, and PH's that have decent patterns, in trade for rat credit:)

Some people are just better at marketing normals than others, some like to tell it like it is, some like to exaggerate....

Dave

Claiming a hatchling as a co-dom sibling--fine. Claiming it has 'trace patterns' from a morph parent? That's a swindle. It may have patterns similar to its morph parent, but only the ones that aren't related directly to the mutation!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Claiming a hatchling as a co-dom sibling--fine. Claiming it has 'trace patterns' from a morph parent? That's a swindle. It may have patterns similar to its morph parent, but only the ones that aren't related directly to the mutation!

---

I haven't done this..but let me put it this way....if a Normal of a Morph clutch has a lot of blushing, flames and is generally brighter..maybe even patterned differently than the common Normal, how can you say that it's NOT trace patterns?

Trace patterns of WHAT?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Trace patterns of WHAT?

---

EXACTLY!!


In my very humble opinion, it's a complete GIMMICK to say its a co-dominants sibling.

It's a normal, it does not carry or even remotely carry the "patterns" of the co-dominant mutation. That is just a plain ol' fact in regards to the inheritance of co-dominant genes.

Now then, the parents could be a gorgeous reduced or high blushing animal, and those are separate traits unto themselves that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the co-dominant mutation like a spider or mojave. Those traits can be passed on most definitely.

But to sit there and tell me that a Pastel or Mojave SIBLING carries "traits" of the mojave is NOT because of the mojave or pastel gene itself! That is not how simple co-dominant inheritance works!

You don't get to keep a piece of the pastel gene like it rubbed off on the siblings, you either get it all or nothing. :cool:

There is such a variance in normals, that there are most likely MANY genes that affect how they come out. With circles inside of their dorsal spots, or really faded blushing between the alien heads, or extra white or yellow bellies. These are not vindictive of a co-dominant morph that we know and breed for today, but are likely separate traits unto themselves that should not be gimmicked into being called "morph traits". It's simply misleading and unknowing buyers think they are getting something extra special, when in reality it is just a normal, no matter how beautiful or unique it is.

Some people like to work there ad's like that to just give them a "boost" in looking a little bit "better". I personally HATE ad's like that and refuse to buy from people who address their snakes for sale like that. A normal is a normal and I couldn't care less who it's parents or siblings were unless it's a het.