Breeding Feeders My Method

I just typed this up for a friend and thought I'd share it.

On mouse breeding:

Mice go into heat every 4-5 days for a 12hour cycle.
Gestation is 18-21 days (3weeks).
There is also a thing called post partum estrus, which is a heat cycle directly after giving birth, so a female could end up with back to back pregnacy. This is bad for her and both litters.
It takes 28days (4weeks) for mice to reach sexual maturity. At which point you need to kill or seperate them to prevent fights (brother/brother) and incest (brother/sister)

I only have 3 snakes so my system is fairly small.

T=tub (1,2,3,4)
F=Female (1-6)
M=Male

Room assignments:
T1- F1
T2-F2&F3
T3-F6
T4-F4&F5
The male moves from tub to tub.

The method:
I have four tubs, each containing 1-2 females. My male spends 14 days (2weeks) in each tub. 4tubsx2weeks=8weeks. This means that if my male does his job the females have gestation (3weeks), and weaning (4weeks) plus one week vacation, equals 8weeks.

Week......T1............T2.............T3............T4
1............m.............w .............w .............g
2............m.g..........w.v...........w .............g.w
3.............g.............m .............w..............w
4.............g.w..........m.g..........w.v............w
5.............w.............g .............m .............w
6.............w.............g.w...........m.g..........w.v
7.............w.............w.............g .............m
8.............w.v..........w .............g.w...........m.g

This chart's a loop so when you get to week 8 it start over at week 1.

My method poses some risks. Mice can be defensive of territory so every time I introduce the male there is some risk of him being castrated by the girls. I just wash the tubs really well. Once you get established and have a few litters the risk goes way down. There is a little fighting but nothing serious, most of the squeaking is the girls protesting being mounted.

I keep pairs and singles it works for me and how many mice I need. Females either help each other raise the litters or they fight and steal each others babies. If I have a fighting pair I just feed one off making the remaining mouse a single mother.

Never keep more than one male in a cage. They fight and females will self-abort if there is a chance of mating with a better male.

People keep colonies anywhere from 1.1 to 1.12
Depending on you're cage size and your need.
Another choice is to either leave the female in all the time and risk the male killing the babies, and risk back to back pregnacy. Or they remove the females to birthing cages when they are oviously pregnant.

Sometimes mice look like they swallowed a golf ball and sometimes they don't look pregnat so this is a risk.
Back to back pregnacy is bad for the mouse but it's up to you how much you care about you're breeders.

I oviously have 1.1 and 1.2 cages and a total of 1.6 mice
(numbers like this mean M.F ratio, there is also a three number version M.F.U where U is unknown gender, snake keepers use is alot so you'll see it on the forums)

Housing ect..:
I use 16qt Iris tubs that have buckle down lids. The floor space is about 18x11inches and they're 7 inches tall. I used a soldering iron to make lots of air holes in the sides and lid and a hole for the water bottle.

Aspen bedding because it's snake safe. Sometimes I mix a little pine with the aspen in the tub my male is currently in to cut down his smell.


Killing Method:
Use a CO2 chamber. CO2 is a natural euthinasia which causes drowsiness and sleep. When introduced in large amounts it causes death.
Setup:
a 16oz CO2 tank (like for a paintballgun) with a tube in near the bottom of a air tight container.
another tube leading out near the top of the container goes into a glass of water.
the mice go in the container.

How this works:
CO2 is heavier than air so it fills from the bottom pushing the air out the upper tube. The glass of water allows air out but not back in.
Turn the tank on low at first to cause the mice to sleep. Once they stop moving you up the gas flow to remove the rest of the oxygen.
Turn the tank back to low (or off if you're sure all the air is gone) and let sit for 5mins.

Viola! Dead Mice. Clean and with no stress. They just went to sleep and didn't wake up.

Other CO2 methods involve the sublimation of dry ice (which works well if you can get it) or a vinegar/baking soda mix (which also works but is messy and smells bad.)

About mice vs. rats:
In the long run Rats are a better meal. They contain more nutrition. You can feed multiple mice instead of one rat, and it won't hurt your snake but rats are better.

I'm going to breed rats instead when I have room for rat sized containers. They are easier to breed. Easier to handle. And are more nutritious.
Lots of snake keepers view they're rodent breeders as pets. I was surprised how many people love they're breeder rats and consider them family. I'd like to have pet rats again. Mice are so stupid and smelly. I think I could deal with feeding rat babies to my snakes and only get attached to my adult breeders.

I order frozen rats from the mousefactory.com which had the best prices I could find. I may keep ordering rats or I might switch Jack, my bp, back to mice till I can breed rats. We'll see.

Okay so ask me Q's if anythings unclear.

hope this helps cause woo, that was a lot of typing.

-M

The only thing I call into question is the comment about rats being more nutritional than mice. Can you point me to any source that confirms this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The only thing I call into question is the comment about rats being more nutritional than mice. Can you point me to any source that confirms this?

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I actually can't. But it's what I've been told. Sorry if it's misinformation. I'll see what I can some up with and get back to you.

My methods are all things I've put together that work for me based on what other people have told me they do. It's all word of mouth type stuff. It just turns out this is the way I do it and it works.

The nutritional value of mice and rats is the only thing I can't actually test. :)

More meat per animal is all I can think of on the rat vs. mouse feeder thing. Bigger bones = more calcium as well.

wow i just throw a buncha female rats in with my male!
you got a very precise science down i did luckout though that a local petstore
takes my overstock for store credit
i hear people all the time saying rabbits and guinea pigs are" more nutritional than mice and rats but the only thing i could even think of is less bonemass to meat ratio and thats a big maybe fat content is also a factor too, since rabbits have hardly any fat wich is vital for mammels but noit to sure about reps

I found this if you can make any sense of it.

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Overall I don't care. I'm keeping mice right now because i don't have room to keep rats.

I prefer rats because they have sweeter personalitys and grow to feeder size at a faster rate. Also because they are 'mouse' sized at a younger age they tend to be more docile feeders. This is not true if you are waiting for them to reach full adult size since rats can cause much more damage than a mouse when fighting for it's life.

Anyway I will be switching to rats when I can.

I do apologize if the nutritional thing turns out to be untrue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rishnack

wow i just throw a buncha female rats in with my male!
you got a very precise science down i did luckout though that a local petstore
takes my overstock for store creditut reps

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I'm kinda a control freak. I've got a book and full of charts and calendars showing every time my snakes eat, ect.. and now I've got charts for my mice too.

I was considering how mouse/rat breeding would be done, so I'm really thankful that you posted this thread. I actually find it very straight forward and easy to understand. And since I'm a very anal person about organization... this is perfect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pandora

I was considering how mouse/rat breeding would be done, so I'm really thankful that you posted this thread. I actually find it very straight forward and easy to understand. And since I'm a very anal person about organization... this is perfect.

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I'm glad it was helpful. Let me know how it goes and if you improve the process any. I've been breeding mice for less than a year so I'm still improving too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The only thing I call into question is the comment about rats being more nutritional than mice. Can you point me to any source that confirms this?

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Ive read that rats have just a little bit more protein, but I do not have any sources to back it up.

I kept mine in 1.6 groups, and they did fine without getting breaks and gave me more babys that I could ever count (1..2..3..9...fish?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Ive read that rats have just a little bit more protein, but I do not have any sources to back it up.

I kept mine in 1.6 groups, and they did fine without getting breaks and gave me more babys that I could ever count (1..2..3..9...fish?)

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Yeah, mice do fine with back to back pregnancys. It does tend to take it's toll on there bodies and the litters have to be weaned early. It's all a matter of how fast you need mice and how long you want your breeders to live. It technically doesn' t matter since by the time it really takes it's toll they're out of their breeding prime anyway.

Passing my male around has 2 advantages. I control how many pregnancies and I only have one smelly male around.

I gave up most of my rats because they grow to fast,& also my BP's seem to feed better on smaller prey,ASF's are my main feeders right now but man they grow slow!mice suck they eat their babies all the time Ive tried everything to stop this but it still happens only have one female that does'nt do it.ASF's on the other hand are great & are just the right size I need but the slow growth is a pain Im going to have to buy next weeks meals so I can get some more growth out of my group.I only keep mice because one of my BP females is a mouser thats it mice won't even eat a ASF!Im gonna try to get a small group of mice started again soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greghall

I gave up most of my rats because they grow to fast
ASF's are my main feeders right now but man they grow slow

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I figure when I get rats I'll freeze off the one's I can't feed off so that I always have the size I need. Only one of my snakes can eat a full grown rat right now.

Where do you get ASF's? I've never heard of them before I got on this forum.

YOU CAN GET THEM ON THE EAST COAST. WELL MY MOUSE MOTHER ATE ANOTHER BABY :mad: NOW IM DOWN TO FROM 17 BABIES TO 3 SHE'S GETTING FED OFF!! PUT THE 3 REMAINING FUZZYS IN WITH A LITTER OF ASF'S WE SHALL SEE WHAT HAPPENS THEY GOT SOME LICKS & SNIFFS BUT ARE NURSING RIGHT WITH THE ASF RAT PINKS RIGHT NOW,CAN'T BE ANY WORSE THAN WHAT THEIR MOM WAS GOING TO GIVE THEM.

Are there any ASF breeders in the seattle area?

For that matter what about regular rat breeders?
It will be a while before I start breeding rats but when I do I'd like to know where I can get a few instead of buying bad stock from a chain pet store.

Great post, I am interested in seeing pictures of your setup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clear

Great post, I am interested in seeing pictures of your setup.

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It's really not much. I live in a teeny tiny apartment.

And please don't flame at me for keeping my snakes and mice on the same shelf. My mice produce fine (i.e. not over stressed) and my snakes are well fed. Plus, I think no matter where I put them, they'd still smell each other. It's a tiny apartment. I can smell the mice and even the aspen when it's clean in both rooms, i assume the animals have better noses than me.

Ok, pics:

1)& 2)My entire shelf.
Bottom shelf, 40gal breeder w/Jack a normal ball & supplies.
Middle. 20gal long w/Petco cali king & mouse tubs 2 & 3.
Top. 20gal long w/Byrd normal corn & mouse tubs 1 & 4.
3)Just the mouse tubs
4)Close up
5)Top view of a tub
6)Female6 letting me get close to her 4 day olds.

1)https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...elf1_thumb.jpg 2)https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...elf2_thumb.jpg 3)https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...side_thumb.jpg 4)https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...lose_thumb.jpg 5)https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...view_thumb.jpg 6)https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...bies_thumb.jpg
Sorry they're small. If you want to see bigger versions check the forum gallery.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/...imageuser=9958