Does this mean another trip to the vet? (Pics)

Two days after eating, and several days after getting the results from his fecal float back (supposedly clean) this is what I see. I've been checking him every day so I know this was done during the daytime today. It was everywhere, and very runny. Smelled horrible - not like normal snake poop.

What could this be? It's gotten me worried so I pulled him away from the rest of my collection again. He's in a ten gallon med tank in the living room now. He's not happy, but I don't want to take chances.

Photos:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...Badpoop008.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...Badpoop002.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...Badpoop003.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...Badpoop005.jpg

Is that a worm in the 3rd pic? I would have that looked at for sure. But maybe a different vet this time. Good luck Mindizzle.

I would definitely recommend another trip to the vet. Tell them that despite their test results, there's clearly something still wrong with the fecal matter popping out of your snake. And I agree with the poster above, the third picture looks like a worm. I hope everything turns out for the better. :please:

On a lighter note: that Caribbean spiced tilapia salad sounds good :gj:

3rd pic does look like a worm. Please do take your snake back to the vet and tell them how he is pooing. If you can, print out these pictures to show to the vet so he/she can see exactly what you saw and are talking about.

T_T I almost cried when I opened his tub and saw this. This snake has been through hell and back; it's just one thing after another. I hate for him to have to go through this. I'll call some vets tomorrow. I was going to save the poop to take in, but it wasnt worth keeping it in the house. Pictures will have to suffice. And I'll definitely be using a different vet this time. That's a no brainer.

I don't know how they can mess up a fecal float.

Oh trust me ... THESE guys can. They could mess up anything - no joke.

really sucks that you and your snake are having to go throught this....that 3rd pic does look like a worm to me...hope your next vet visit is better and you get results. Good luck!!

Tell the dolts to do a few direct smears, see if the snake has any protozoans making him have diarrhea. If he ever came in contact with dirty water sources, he may have giardia, or who know what else.

Don't let them do a float, DO A SMEAR. Get the fecal sample to the vet within a few hours, don't refrigerate for too long if you can help it as it will kill off the baddies that need to be seen.

They told me they did a smear the last time I was there. This is exactly what the receptionist (the "I dont THINK he has worms" receptionist) told me:

"Well, it doesn't look like he has any parasites. Hold on, let me go in the back and pull up his records." ... "Ok, yes. It looks like that because of the history on the snake and everything that he had last time, they took several different sections of the feces and put it under a microscope. It looks to be clean on all of them."

She went into further detail of the process, but the way she described it to me, I thought they'd gotten it figured out. It seemed to me that there was no way they could have mistaken anything by doing what she described to me. Maybe she was lying. They have done it to me in the past, and unfortunately for them I was smart enough to know it.

I'm not telling the "dolts" anything, because I am not going back there. "Not no way, not no how."

Also, I have work all day long tomorrow so I can't take him in. The vets are closed on Sunday. I have no one that is either willing, or trustworthy enough to take him for me. Can this wait until Monday, or should I ask off of work for a few hours tomorrow?

Stories like this make me want to purchase my own microscope.

Next time, I swear I'm just gonna bag it up, and befriend someone in the biology department of my university. "Hey, um, btw - since I'm here ... could I use your microscope?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TooManyToys

Stories like this make me want to purchase my own microscope.

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Funny, because ive been thinking about picking one up for the same reason.

I've had to stay up late getting everything cleaned and sanitized and away from my other snakes, so now I can't sleep. After Becky suggested Giardia I started thinking about all the different parasites he could have, each one progressively worse than the next. :( I got out my Pythons of the World Vol II to read up on parasites, but it offered very little that I didn't already know (and of course Google was even less help). So, in order to keep my mind occupied I made up a fact sheet to bring with me to the vet. I know that once I get there I'll forget everything I need to say and just start worrying, so hopefully this will help me keep my thoughts organized and help the vet to understand what is going on. I also looked up some herp vets in my area and settled on one that seems to be very highly recommended. I'm going to call them tomorrow, but in the mean time I would really appreciate it if you guys could look over my fact sheet and tell me if I'm missing anything.

It's just so frustrating because the person who kept this snake in the beginning did so badly. They really did wrong by him, but they definitely did not think so. Now I'm stuck trying to help him and it just seems to be one problem after another. This is neither fair to him nor me, and I get so angry thinking about how all of this could have been prevented with a little research on their part. Factor into that the horrid treatment we received at the last vet, and the product of this equation is a very stressed me. :(

Anyway, here's my fact sheet. Please tell me what you think.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Raven – 0.0.1 Normal Ball Python


Date Acquired: 07.13.08

The animal was a rescue; it was housed in an 18 x 12 x 20 mesh terrarium with overhead heating, no hides, no décor – only a large water bowl. The bedding (Eco Earth) was soiled in several areas, and there were bits of stuck shed on the sides of the terrarium. No thermometers or hygrometers.

Prior Medical History: Tip of the animal’s tail was amputated at a young age due to several consecutive bad sheds. This was the only time it had ever seen a vet.

Other Information: The animal was estimated at 5.5 years of age at the time of acquisition. It was axanthic in coloration – probably caused by malnutrition, and severely underweight. Feeding routine consisted of 1 FT rat pup every 2 weeks – 1 month. Snake was handled frequently, and often taken out into public.

Current Housing: 32q Sterilite sweater box in rack-like system. Heating is a 12” strip of Flexwatt, hooked up to a Ranco thermostat. Temperatures range from 92F on the hot side, to 78-80F on the cool side. Humidity ranges from 52-60%. Two hides are provided, as well as a large water bowl, shedding rock, and various aesthetic décor. Bedding is white paper.

Feeding Routine: When first acquired, the animal was given one FT rat pup every seven days. After acclimation, prey size was increased, and the animal was offered one FT rat crawler every seven days. More recently, the feeding frequency has been increased to one FT rat crawler every five days. The snake has never refused a meal, and has a very good feeding response.

Most Recent Medical History: A fecal examination on 09.08.08 revealed Pinworms and Tapeworms. The snake was treated with .15cc of Panacur once a week for three consecutive weeks. A follow-up fecal examination turned up no parasites, and the snake was diagnosed as healthy. The snake weighed in at 267g on 09.22.08.

Medical Concerns: Obviously, the animal is underweight. It is far too small for its age, and no matter how much it eats, it neither gains weight nor length. The snake does not defecate normally. I frequently find urates, but no feces. It is not unusual for this animal to go three weeks to a month without defecation. When it does expel feces, it is often discolored (light), watery, or practically nonexistent. The last defecation was nothing short of diarrhea, which was smeared across the entirety of the tub. A close inspection of it seemed to show worms. The feces also had a very foul odor to it – much worse than normal. I do not understand how this is possible when the animal was just treated for parasites, and follow-up exams seemingly proved the animal to be in good health. I also suspect the animal to be slightly dehydrated, though no mention was made of this at the previous veterinary office. The animal only drinks when fresh water is provided. That is to say that it does not seem to drink if the water has been stagnant for a day, but as soon as the water is replaced the snake immediately comes out to drink. Because of this, I change it frequently but I am afraid that the snake’s picky habit may have some ill effects.

That fact sheet looks nice and detailed to me. That's a damn shame what that snake went through. I hope your next vet visit is a much more pleasant one.

I think this will all pay off in the long run, it's always tuff rescuing an animal and trying to fix what the previous owner did. Hang in there and good luck to you!

Hmm. My first question would be, are you 100% sure it's a poop and not a funky regurge?? I've had rescues do regurges similar to that and the smell is usually the first thing that gets you. Just a thought.

~Kat

Did she give him any Flagyl? She didn't give mine any deworming (I had no fecal sample), so she said based on the weight loss, one runny BM, and lack of appetite, she was going to give her a dose of Flagyl.

I have to tell you, I will not be going back to that vet, but my snake has been eating like mad and has gained back all of the weight she had lost in a matter of weeks.

I wish you luck. I have taken several reptile fecals to Clinic for Animals in Lauderhill (954-749-0551), and they've been pretty good about the results, but I have never taken any of my BPs there.

Kat, I don't think it's regurge because he had a good size rat just a few days prior, and I can still see the small lump where the rat is. I figure that if it were a regurge, it would have all come up. And even if that weren't the case, shouldn't he still go to the vet anyway?

CaneCorso, Thanks. :)

Muze, no - he wasn't given Flagyl. He got three doses of Panacur, but after I read up on it, it seems that the norm is four doses. So I'm wondering if maybe that has something to do with it? Maybe he didn't finish his treatment.
:confused:

I just went to check on him a little bit ago and there were urates in the cage again. I find urates every few days but there's rarely any poop. I remember reading a while ago that this might be a bad thing. Does anybody know anything about that? And I don't just mean there's frequent urates and a poop once a week or something. It's not uncommon for him to go 3 weeks to a month without pooping, but I'll find 10+ urates during that time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mindibun

Kat, I don't think it's regurge because he had a good size rat just a few days prior, and I can still see the small lump where the rat is. I figure that if it were a regurge, it would have all come up. And even if that weren't the case, shouldn't he still go to the vet anyway?

CaneCorso, Thanks. :)

Muze, no - he wasn't given Flagyl. He got three doses of Panacur, but after I read up on it, it seems that the norm is four doses. So I'm wondering if maybe that has something to do with it? Maybe he didn't finish his treatment.
:confused:

I just went to check on him a little bit ago and there were urates in the cage again. I find urates every few days but there's rarely any poop. I remember reading a while ago that this might be a bad thing. Does anybody know anything about that? And I don't just mean there's frequent urates and a poop once a week or something. It's not uncommon for him to go 3 weeks to a month without pooping, but I'll find 10+ urates during that time.

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they can go 3-4 weeks without pooping. I generally find many more urates than i ever do feces.

I wouldn't worry so much about it with any other snake, but because of his history it worries me that his body isn't digesting things thoroughly or properly.

We are still all in agreement that he needs a vet, right? He has an appointment on Monday at 3:30, so I can still cancel it if I'm just being silly.

Kat, you think it could be a regurge (which apparently yours do). I would think that would mean a trip to the vet anyway, but the vibe I got from your post was that you didn't think so.

And then Clockwork thinks his infrequent pooping is also normal. I don't; none of my other snakes ever go anywhere near that long without pooping.

But simply setting foot in the vet's office is going to cost me $50, plus whatever tests they decide to run. If there's no reason for me to go, please tell me so I don't waste my money. I'm afraid they'll want to do a fecal float or smear. I've already paid for two of those and should have had a healthy snake. I'm really put off to them now. If I go, and they ask me to do one, should I? Or is there something else I should do?

I'm really worried about the snake, and now I'm really worried that I'm worrying for nothing. Please help me out, here, guys. I need your expertise.

I'll bet he still has tapeworm--the vet diagnosed him with tapeworm, but didn't properly treat him for it! Panacur is great for roundworms, but it's not very effective against tapeworm. Tapeworm's only shed intermittantly, so even with clear fecals, he could easily still have them.

Fenbendazole (panacur) is effective against tapeworm in mammals, but it doesn't do much for reptile tapeworms. That explains why your vet used it, thinking it would work.

The drug of choice for reptile tapeworm is Praziquantel (Droncit). 5-8 mg/kg, injected sub-cut-aneously or intramuscularly, repeat after 2 weeks.<--this info is for your vet, in case he doesn't have it. Doseages of 20 mg/kg are too high and can cause seizures in ball pythons. Make sure that the snake appears strong, as it shouldn't be used in debilitated snakes.

By the way, I HIGHLY recommend to anyone with a collection or reptiles, or who has a reptile that's been diagnosed with parasites, the following book:
"Understanding Reptile Parasites" by Roger J. Klingenberg, DVM

In fact, if you have a regular vet that you think should bone up on all this stuff, give it to them for Christmas. lol It's perfectly understandable for laypersons, but it has all of the technical information, including drug doseages. (It has pictures of the parasite oocysts and eggs and larvae as well). It's great to have on your own shelf, and genuinely useful for a vet.

Tapeworm will keep an animal with a hearty appetite from properly gaining weight. Since he's BEEN diagnosed with it, but has not been treated for it properly, that's just about a sure bet.

(note: sorry for the odd dashes, but for reasons mystifying to me, the censor program put censoring in the middle of 'subcutaneously'. I don't get it, since it's not doing it now.).

Tapeworm ova are incredibly hard to see on a fecal floatation (they just don't float well!) so my clinic will often treat for them to be safe. As far as I know, Fenbendazole (Panacur) doesn't treat tapeworms in reptiles OR small mammals. WingedWolf is right, we would use Droncit.

Most internal parasites shed ova intermittently. In a dog that poops a few times a day, it would be simple to catch eggs in 1 or 2 samples. In a snake that goes so infrequently, you can easily go months without finding anything and still have an infected animal. Preventative deworming even without a positive fecal is highly recommended in an animal with a so-so past like yours. Just MAKE SURE your vet knows what they are doing, and is dosing correctly. Bring a copy of the Exotic Animal Formulary with you if they don't have one!

We carry easy snap tests for giardia, see if your vet has them. Giardia cysts are easy to miss by human eyes under a microscope, but the snap test (from Idexx labs) isn't as easily fooled.

Now as far as the infrequent bowel movements.. are you certain the snake hasn't gained weight? Snakes are masters of turning food into mass with very little waste, it's why they've been around so long. The frequent urates may just be a side effect of the increase in water intake, and you are right to think dehydration in an animal having diarrhea. Some subcutaneous fluids may help. Again - make sure you trust your vet.

Sorry for the novel, hope it helps. :gj:

-Tami*

www.arav.org can help find a vet local to you that is likely to have more reptile experience.

I sincerely hope that a herpetological specialty standard is adopted by the vet association soon--one does not currently exist, and a vet cannot officially be a 'reptile specialist'.

I would take him to the vet. Reptiles can deteriorate very quickly, and what you found in the tub does not look like normal feces. In addition, he has a history of parasite infestation.

I always try to hold off on taking my animals to vets because it's traumatizing, sometimes they charge you for unnecessary tests, etc., and because I was a vet tech for a few years so I can manage on my own with some issues. But I do not know that much about internal snake diseases as of yet, so when mine lost all that weight in a short period of time, I went straight to the vet. I figure it was either time for Flagyl or Panacur, but wasn't going to try it myself.

I hope you boy feels better soon. Keep us posted.

Btw, I think I too will be investing in a microscope pretty soon...& a few good reptile disease books.

It's a little frustrating--I can use a microscope, I know the doseages, but I can't get my hands on fenbendazole or metronidazole in any form not made for horses or dogs.
If you can treat your horse or dog on your own, why can't you treat your snake? :P Those meds have a pretty broad margin of error.

Ok, thanks everyone. A friend and I are going to take him tomorrow so we'll see what happens. He's scheduled to eat tonight, and he's been roaming the tank. Should I go ahead and feed him or hold off?

I would NOT feed him right before a trip to the vet, he might regurge it.

I figured as much. The poor guy has had his feeding schedule interrupted at least twice because of vet visits. This is so frustrating! :mad::( And he's really unhappy being stuck in the little ten gallon. I want to take him out and let him roam a little bit because he's just been pushing his face against the screen, but I don't want to handle him until I know exactly what's wrong with him.

This is so unfair! :rage:


Also, where can I get a copy of the Exotic Animal Formulary on short notice like this? I looked it up and it looks like a big, expensive book that I have to buy. :(