Is there a Morph you will never own/breed due to genetics?

This is a conversation that is occuring in several circles, and I wanted to know from you all.

Is there a morph out there that you would not consider ever owning/breeding due to genetic issues?

The most obvious are the Spider wobble and the Caramel kink, but others are out there...

Please share!

Maybe not balls, but boas... the gene that makes those pop-eyes or blind ones... I couldnt, wouldnt breed for that knowing it was a very real possibilty.

Nope,

I was nervous about Spiders and the wobbles but I love bees way to much to hold me back. Plus the theory that combo spiders show fewer signs of the wobbles helped me feel better. I don't think kinking in Caramels should be that big of a deal anymore; there are many people who painstakingly outcrossed their lines to prevent against it.

The morph I would never own is the Derma ball. Not sure what the current status on this project is but I was turned off from the first picture I saw.

Hybrids.

There is actually one hybrid I've been thinking about trying for one day, but if I did it I would never let any of them out of my collection, and would will them to someone whom I know would also never let any of them be available into the public.

Spiders are the only one for me. I am ok with caramels because most hatch out fine and I personally believe you can avoid most of the kinking problems by lowering incubation temps and outcrossing (I have only hatched 3 so I am not exactly an expert but all of them have been perfect to this point). If most spiders hatched out fine I would probably be ok with them but unfortunately that is not the case. I have purchased black pastels, but they are kind of on the borderline with me as far as breeding for supers. It may sound wierd, but I am actually a little more ok with small physical problems then I am with physiological problems.

Nope i want them all.... hahaha

I will breed them someday, but for now im staying away from caramels. I just cant stand the though of hatching kinked animals when I know that there is a risk involved. Its not fair in my mind to the poor snakes that I might have to put down because of my own selfishness. Im waiting until the kinking is a thing of the past in them.

Carmels, the kinked spine is too much for me to chance it.

JonV

I love RDR's Granite Albinos....the problem is that Ralph says that there is a genetic defect and they don't thrive (or something like that in his youtube, or journal or birthing records.....I don't remember...)

For me, I am steering clear of womas. Other than that I am also "trying" to stay away from carmels, but there are carmel combos that I want like the carmel pied. Other than that, everthing else is fair game.

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Originally Posted by Jyson

For me, I am steering clear of womas. Other than that I am also "trying" to stay away from carmels, but there are carmel combos that I want like the carmel pied. Other than that, everthing else is fair game.

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I too am not interested in Womas, as well as the genetics issues with a super. I donno.. I never liked them a whole lot to begin with.

While I can't think of any off hand that I would absolutely NEVER work with, there are a few I might wish to work with in only a very limited way. There are a few mutations that have problems. Besides the morphs already mentioned, scaleless is another that many people might be leery of. but I think it would be rewarding to be able to figure out why it's a problem and see if it can be overcome.

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Originally Posted by Drew87

Nope i want them all.... hahaha

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Andrew.......you're a man after my own heart. :gj:

i would say a caramel with kinked spines dont like the thought of that.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Nope,

I was nervous about Spiders and the wobbles but I love bees way to much to hold me back. Plus the theory that combo spiders show fewer signs of the wobbles helped me feel better. I don't think kinking in Caramels should be that big of a deal anymore; there are many people who painstakingly outcrossed their lines to prevent against it.

The morph I would never own is the Derma ball. Not sure what the current status on this project is but I was turned off from the first picture I saw.

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spider for sure! every spider is gonna have some sort of wobble sometime in its life. even if its minute. the first spider ever had the condition so there is no way to weed it out.

there are woma and pins to mix wit. i dont know what the talk is on the genetic defect on womas. i havent heard anything.

I will always stay away from spiders or any of the crosses that have been produced from spiders no matter how "pretty or amazing" a snake may look. IMHO spinning and wobbling is a major defect and I do not think they should have been bred over and over and over again since it is passed on and now has been out crossed in to other morphs.

No, I would work with these lines. I would just make sure that the lines that I work with do not have these issues; such as, spiders that do not wobble, and caramels that do not kink.

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

spider for sure! every spider is gonna have some sort of wobble sometime in its life. even if its minute. the first spider ever had the condition so there is no way to weed it out.

there are woma and pins to mix wit. i dont know what the talk is on the genetic defect on womas. i havent heard anything.

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I thoughtfully disagree. My spiders do not show signs of wobbles. I personally think spiders are great. They are my best eaters and breeders. My male even gave me twins. Can't beat that...

YouTube - Kinked Caramel Albinos

Not those. Too risky. Caramels are beautiful. But it would take a lot for me to breed those.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I thoughtfully disagree. My spiders do not show signs of wobbles. I personally think spiders are great. They are my best eaters and breeders. My male even gave me twins. Can't beat that...

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Not to offend you or anyone else, but I needed to quote you to make a point!

Everyone says their spider does not wobble! :) Heck our spider doesn't wobble, at least that my wife and I have witnessed! The genetic issue is a known issue and those that don't want to deal with it need to stay away from spiders completely. Since I have not witnessed it with our spider I plan to keep spiders or spider combos in our collection. Caramels can have the kink issue, but it has been said some lines appear to be clear of it! If any of the above conditions did manifest in off spring I would have to seriously reconsider breeding either of the two parents again. As far as Womas go, I'm not sure! Right now we are playing with a Genetic reduced and I think additional potential might lay with that gene compared to the Woma. Thats all me though and I guess everyone is bound to have some sort of opinion.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I thoughtfully disagree. My spiders do not show signs of wobbles. I personally think spiders are great. They are my best eaters and breeders. My male even gave me twins. Can't beat that...

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first off im not trying be criticize you for owning a spider. i just wouldnt want one.

a spider with the wobbles most of the time eats fine and a wobble doesnt mean that the snake is upside down and all around all the time. it could just be a slight tick that you dont notice unless you snake is completely still. A lot of accounts also dont show signs up until the snake is older. either way the snake is prob messed up in the head and i cant see how the spider mixes got so big when it was apparent a good portion of the off spring were having these problems. Im not try to be rude here but there is a chance that one day you will go in and your snake will be wobbling. :(

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

first off im not trying be criticize you for owning a spider. i just wouldnt want one.

a spider with the wobbles most of the time eats fine and a wobble doesnt mean that the snake is upside down and all around all the time. it could just be a slight tick that you dont notice unless you snake is completely still. A lot of accounts also dont show signs up until the snake is older. either way the snake is prob messed up in the head and i cant see how the spider mixes got so big when it was apparent a good portion of the off spring were having these problems. Im not try to be rude here but there is a chance that one day you will go in and your snake will be wobbling. :(

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I have to say even with this defect the spider is arguable the king of combos. I have one and she's got the special behavior but you know what I'd buy her again any day.:gj: I love spiders

i had the Pleasure of picking up this beauty
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...C00689-1-1.jpg
and even though its so tiny he has a small kink on his tail near the tip i love him but after much talking with one of the smartest ladies on this site i'm gonna keep him around and name him D.O.G. lol and call him a pet its just not worth the risk as i cant say im gonna like "culling" any animal

the good ol Derma Ball...wat ever happened to that thing??

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Originally Posted by chetman7

the good ol Derma Ball...wat ever happened to that thing??

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If I remember correctly it bred but did not produce anything like itself. I cant see why you'd want to breed those... It didnt have heat pits, and any reptile that should have scales, that doesnt, just isnt right and is cruel to try to breed the trait on.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

If I remember correctly it bred but did not produce anything like itself. I cant see why you'd want to breed those... It didnt have heat pits, and any reptile that should have scales, that doesnt, just isnt right and is cruel to try to breed the trait on.

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yea. I agree. I can't believe they even tried to duplicate it. That is prob one "morph" if it is even considered one that we can all agree of never owning or breed

The Derma -- yeah that one has no place in my collection -- wonder if it's still alive even.

Other than that there are some that I'd like to have but would prefer just buying a nice healthy example of the morph -- In a perfect world I'd like to say I wouldn't breed them and that they'd only be pets but I'm not going to blow smoke up anyones back side.

Deformities and kinks happen not just in the morphs - it's part of the game - you take your chances no matter what morph (or even normals) you are playing with.

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Originally Posted by royal morphz

i had the Pleasure of picking up this beauty
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...C00689-1-1.jpg
and even though its so tiny he has a small kink on his tail near the tip i love him but after much talking with one of the smartest ladies on this site i'm gonna keep him around and name him D.O.G. lol and call him a pet its just not worth the risk as i cant say im gonna like "culling" any animal

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I respect you for making this decision. If I were in your shoes, I would make the same decision. I would never breed kinked caramels, or breed spiders that wobble. In my opinion it is irresponsible. If the parents have deformities then the offspring would more than likely have deformities too. Why would anyone want to create offspring with deformities?

On the other hand, I would and will work with caramels one day. I will just make sure that the line that I work with does not have kinks.

I don't think we have the research in place to say that all spiders do wobble or that there exist some which do not, although we can say that the severity of these cases varies greatly from "non functional" to "barely noticeable", which is interesting.

Since the spider morph does not have a visible super form, it could be that the severe wobblers are homozygous for spider (or maybe homozygous spider genotypes are lethal and the eggs are reabsorbed so you'd never even know), and perhaps the spider and wobble genes are closely linked (at two loci that are physically near to eachother on a given chromosome). It'd be interesting to collect data from the large scale breeders to try and figure out what's going on with these morphs that seem to associate themselves with deformities (and perhaps figure out how to avoid them).

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

Im not try to be rude here but there is a chance that one day you will go in and your snake will be wobbling. :(

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I am going to have to disagree with you again. I do not believe that my spiders will have wobbles. I believe that the line that I bought into is a clean line. I will breed my line, and if one day my spiders start wobbling, then I will stop breeding them.

ya definetly i would never breed dermas

I can't think of any that I wouldn't work with. There is the kinking issue with caramels, but I'd only buy one from a line that has been outcrossed enough where there wasn't any kinking. Plus kinking can happen to any animal, so that's not reason enough for me not to work with them.

And same thing with spiders; my spider is one of my best eaters and growers - but has a little bit of wobble. It's not so extreme where its alarming, but I think it gives her personality. I don't see any suffering and as far as I can tell it doesn't impair the animal in any way. So I will continue to work with spiders.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

Since the spider morph does not have a visible super form, it could be that the severe wobblers are homozygous for spider (or maybe homozygous spider genotypes are lethal and the eggs are reabsorbed so you'd never even know), and perhaps the spider and wobble genes are closely linked (at two loci that are physically near to eachother on a given chromosome). It'd be interesting to collect data from the large scale breeders to try and figure out what's going on with these morphs that seem to associate themselves with deformities (and perhaps figure out how to avoid them).

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The linked theory is interesting. If that's the case, would be nice to find one that's had a recombination event that could separate the wobble from the spider gene...

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I am going to have to disagree with you again. I do not believe that my spiders will have wobbles. I believe that the line that I bought into is a clean line. I will breed my line, and if one day my spiders start wobbling, then I will stop breeding them.

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I thought that there was only the single line of spider.

On a side note, this thread might be more informative without all the opinions and theories presented as facts. That's jmho.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

On a side note, this thread might be more informative without all the opinions and theories presented as facts. That's jmho.

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Agreed there!

Spiders spin....Caramels kink...

Guess what? Normals, Albinos and any other morph can spin or kink. I don't happen to put spinning and kinking in the same category as far as severity goes. Bad kinks can severely twists areas of the spine making even eating impossible. I have seen some severe spinners that eat and grow normally. Do what you feel comfortable with and be honest with your customers.

normals there,s just way to many of em:D

womas for me.

also anything that spins or wobbles. if I get one that does that hatch out I will prob freeze it.

Spiders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Neuro problems are too unpredictable! Especially if a customer wants to know why 6 months after they purchased their bundle of joy it is now doing cartwheels. A big breeder may look at this situation and toss another spider their way or even a refund, problem solved lets breed more spiders. Now I stopped working with spiders when I realized that as a small breeder, I may not have a replacement or the cash available if such a situation should arise and that is not acceptable to me. There are too many morphs out there to waste my time on one that has a very high % of having neuro problems that may show up at hatching or a year down the road. Way too much unpredictability for me to be comfotable with them, just a personal choice!

I do hope those that continue to breed spiders do so in a responsible manner, since the history and secrecy surrounding this morph is an embarrasment to herptoculture! Some may hate on me for that comment, but when I bought my spider in 2005 the wobble issue was always swept under the rug. Honestly, I feel like I was ripped off on that purchase and that the deliberate attempt to hide the wobble issue is a case of "consumer" fraud.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I thought that there was only the single line of spider.

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your thinkin right!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I am going to have to disagree with you again. I do not believe that my spiders will have wobbles. I believe that the line that I bought into is a clean line. I will breed my line, and if one day my spiders start wobbling, then I will stop breeding them.

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of course your going to say that "your" line is clean... you think the breeder you bought your snake from or ANY breeder is going to admit they are producing defective snakes.... you obviously havent read about many account of the wobbles

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I thoughtfully disagree. My spiders do not show signs of wobbles. I personally think spiders are great. They are my best eaters and breeders. My male even gave me twins. Can't beat that...

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I agree spiders are great! I own 5 spiders and not one shows any signs of wobbles. I currently own spiders at various ages and I take them out pretty often to show off to friends and never have I seen anything out of the ordinary.

Maybe I just got lucky? I got most of my stock from either Amir or Jon over at Next World Exotics.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I thought that there was only the single line of spider.

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Yes, all spiders came from one wild caught spider, but that is the beauty of selective breeding.

Here is my theory, the first spider bred and produced offspring. Some of the offspring had major wobble, and some had less. The ones that had less bred and had offspring with the same results, but eventually the offspring with less had even less. This process continued until some of the offspring did not wobble at all. So, the ones with no wobbles breed and all of the offspring has no wobbles. They also call this natural selection. We are just speeding up the process.

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

of course your going to say that "your" line is clean... you think the breeder you bought your snake from or ANY breeder is going to admit they are producing defective snakes.... you obviously havent read about many account of the wobbles

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I take offense to this. It sounds to me like you are saying that I am am lying about my spiders. As I have said before. They do not wobble! If they do start to wobble then I will not breed them.

I have heard of accounts of spiders that wobble, but I have also heard of accounts of spiders that do not wobble, including myself.

With all this talk about spider wobbles and spinning, I think I'm going to have to take my spiders out and start playing the staring game more often. I hear this often but I never had to experience this first hand. Knock on wood. :please: Granted I don't take them all out on a regular basis as much as I use to, with the collection growing, but in the past 2 years in owning some of these spiders not once did I detect a spin or wobble.

Are there any videos of spiders wobbling or spinning out there? Although I think it would be pretty obvious if they are doing this, maybe I'm just not seeing it.

This thread is interesting specially to me who's just starting to collect morphs. Some of these issues are even new to me, like the kinks in carmels and the "derma" (can anyone post a pic of one to enlighten a noob like me). But based on what you described it, it will probably have my vote as a morph that I will never own. But gotta admit, wobble or not, spider is still a killer morph for me. :)

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Originally Posted by jopay

This thread is interesting specially to me who's just starting to collect morphs. Some of these issues are even new to me, like the kinks in carmels and the "derma" (can anyone post a pic of one to enlighten a noob like me). But based on what you described it, it will probably have my vote as a morph that I will never own. But gotta admit, wobble or not, spider is still a killer morph for me. :)

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Here's a link to the derma ball on Ralph Davis site. The derma is way towards the bottom.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/in...ves/may-05.asp

I agree about the spiders. Bumblebees are what made me decide to start breeding ball pythons in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I take offense to this. It sounds to me like you are saying that I am am lying about my spiders. As I have said before. They do not wobble! If they do start to wobble then I will not breed them.

I have heard of accounts of spiders that wobble, but I have also heard of accounts of spiders that do not wobble, including myself.

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Hate to break it to you but ALL spiders do wobble. Some are known as train wreak spinners while other don't came off with the wobbles but do still "tick" there heads. You may think your spiders are fine and in the clear for this but after working for a big breeder and hands on with the couple of thousand spider and spider crosses he has I can tell you that they ALL wobble to a degree. Ask any big ball python breeder about this and if they aren't liars then they will tell you the truth about spiders and spiders crosses.

I'll tell ya I thought they were awesome and wanted a spider a few years ago and almost got one. I too thought not all spiders wobble but after working with so many and talking to and seeing other breeders collections I can simply say that they all do this. Also I'll tell ya this... your two may not come off as bad wobblers and may be on the side that aren't quite noticeable at all times, but if you breed them there is a chance that their offspring can hatch out as train wreaks or ones that do it a lot more and it's noticeable. I've seen that happen too.

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

Hate to break it to you but ALL spiders do wobble. Some are known as train wreak spinners while other don't came off with the wobbles but do still "tick" there heads.

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I really do respect your opinion, but I don't think you can say that ALL spiders spin with such authority without knowing the basis of all breeders out there and their work with spiders. Yes, working with one large breeder is experience, but it is still only one breeder who either has or hasn't concentrated his efforts into breeding for less wobble.


On to the "spiders all came from one WC male", yes that's true, but spiders are also one of the most outcrossed animals out there. How many people honestly put two spiders together? Not very many that's for sure.

I believe most people breed them to normals because what fun is it in breeding two spiders when there is no super form?

It is possible to breed out bad genes, but it takes time and many generations of very selective educated breeding to accomplish that small task. Can spiders even be separated from the wobble? I don't know, but I do believe there is progress being made with more and more people choosing to breed those that don't wobble, or wobble very little when excited.

The wobble may even be created by the way the gene works, like it withholds a certain protein the cells need, or the migration of nerve cells is interrupted in some way by the presence of this gene. We just don't have those answers.

Out breeding. That is the key that helps lower the chances of any kind of defects. I regularly talk to a couple of mid-sized breeders, one of which works for 2 Industry pioneers.

Caramel Albinos Kinking: Well duh, people keep inbreeding them. If you inbreed enough you're going to have problems.

Spiders: I recently acquired a spider and I stared at him for hours, I didn't notice any ticks or quirks or anything that'd make me think something isn't right. And about 95% of the ones I've seen don't wobble. Is it a issue in my eyes? No, it isn't, but that's my opinion.

Ball Pythons are not anymore special than any other animal, espcially when it comes to deformities, I mean c'mon the majority of our hobby is based on them!!!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I really do respect your opinion, but I don't think you can say that ALL spiders spin with such authority without knowing the basis of all breeders out there and their work with spiders. Yes, working with one large breeder is experience, but it is still only one breeder who either has or hasn't concentrated his efforts into breeding for less wobble.


On to the "spiders all came from one WC male", yes that's true, but spiders are also one of the most outcrossed animals out there. How many people honestly put two spiders together? Not very many that's for sure.

I believe most people breed them to normals because what fun is it in breeding two spiders when there is no super form?

It is possible to breed out bad genes, but it takes time and many generations of very selective educated breeding to accomplish that small task. Can spiders even be separated from the wobble? I don't know, but I do believe there is progress being made with more and more people choosing to breed those that don't wobble, or wobble very little when excited.

The wobble may even be created by the way the gene works, like it withholds a certain protein the cells need, or the migration of nerve cells is interrupted in some way by the presence of this gene. We just don't have those answers.

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Connie I have a lot of respect for you, but Allison is coming from a first hand experience with more spiders than many of us have had the chance to see. I have also personally read a post that Ralph Davis claims they are all tweaked to one extent or another.
Here is a link to the post, and if you are not a member of the RDR forum it is worth signing up just to read this post.
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/fo...?TOPIC_ID=9716

Also, there is a consensus that not all spiders are as bad as the next one. At the same time they all have the potential to produce some tweaked out animals that may not display symptoms until they have long been with a new owner. How do my fellow hobbiest, plan for that type of customer service nightmare? The level of denial, when it comes to the issues with spiders, is amazing and the fact that they look so cool and make hot combos doesn't help.

There is no way to stop the spider train now but, I think there should be a disclaimer that comes along with them detailing the risk that new owners may face. I think this is even more important now since spiders are at a price level that is attractive to newcomers that may have no clue about the spider neuro issues. This has the potential to turn off new BP hobbiest that find their spider doing strange things....so they ask online and find out that this is an issue that has been disscussed for years..........at this point I'd be pretty upset that I purchased something and was not given all the info on the potential for a spider to tweak out!

There has been more than enough outcrossing with spiders, that if selective breeding were a solution then we would not keep having this disscussion about neuro impaired spiders.

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Originally Posted by karbogast

There is no way to stop the spider train now but, I think there should be a disclaimer that comes along with them detailing the risk that new owners may face. I think this is even more important now since spiders are at a price level that is attractive to newcomers that may have no clue about the spider neuro issues. This has the potential to turn off new BP hobbiest that find their spider doing strange things....so they ask online and find out that this is an issue that has been disscussed for years..........at this point I'd be pretty upset that I purchased something and was not given all the info on the potential for a spider to tweak out!

There has been more than enough outcrossing with spiders, that if selective breeding were a solution then we would not keep having this disscussion about neuro impaired spiders.

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I agree with this 100%. I also worry that as prices get lower some of these unknowing buyers will take their spider that is acting strange to an unknowing vet and the snake will end up being euthanized.

Again, there has been no decisive study on the matter of spider wobbles. Until there is, I hope that people will refrain from overly generalized blanket statements and stick to the facts we *do* have:

-the spider trait seems to be associated with wobbling
-many spiders show evidence of wobbling, and new owners should be informed that wobbling may turn up later
-it's possible that all spiders wobble to a greater or lesser degree
-we hope to learn more about the problem and find out if its avoidable or if the spider gene is only expressed when the wobble gene is functioning