If up to weight, would you breed a 1 year old female?

When feeding tonight, and I had my little run-in with one of my 07 males wrapping around my arm, I got to thinking, wow, this guy is an 07, and nearly 1300g. And I thought, "If this was a female, would I breed her?" Most of my 06 females are not even ready to breed, most at about 1000-1100g, but here's this 07 who is even bigger than them. This guy was fed every 7 days since I got him as a hatchling, never missed a meal. I have a bunch of 08 CH females that are eating every 5 days, which would lead me to believe they will get some good size on them in the next year. If any of them hit 1500g, should I breed them in the 2010 season, or wait until 2011?

I wouldn't breed a female until it was over 1500 grams, or at least 2 years old.

That's just a preference though. Some people are different.

I wouldn't breed a female that early

She probably wouldn't be sexually mature enough at only a year old even if she was up to weight.

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Originally Posted by spk329

She probably wouldn't be sexually mature enough at only a year old even if she was up to weight.

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Ya thats what I figured, I just thought that maybe it would be a waste if you had a bunch of 1500ers and just decided NOT to breed them. Anyway, I voted no.

i voted yes because i actually bred a one year old, 1000+ female last season and got a nice clutch of 6 eggs from her that all hatched. i wouldnt say every female should breed at that age and/or size but it is possible. if shes not mature to produce eggs then she wont. you just have to use your judgement with each specific animal and dont rush things.

I've got 2 girls that are 1000 - 1200. The 1000 is an 07 and the 1200 is a late 06. I'm going to sit and watch them to see what they do. If they go off food, start bowl wrapping and start hanging out on the cool side all the time they will probably start to develop follicles. Then I will throw boys in with them...


Watch your snakes - they will tell you when they are ready....

It would not hurt to try. If she is not ready, then she will not go for you.

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Originally Posted by JenH

I've got 2 girls that are 1000 - 1200. The 1000 is an 07 and the 1200 is a late 06. I'm going to sit and watch them to see what they do. If they go off food, start bowl wrapping and start hanging out on the cool side all the time they will probably start to develop follicles. Then I will throw boys in with them...


Watch your snakes - they will tell you when they are ready....

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Exactly... Thats why I threw my het albinos together 2 days ago... I started noticing my female wrapping her bowl and what not.... Within 24 hours we had a lock...

MY 1000G FEMALE WAS WRAPPING THE BOWL LAST NIGHT IS THAT A SIGN OF WHAT? iM TRYING TO WAIT TILL I GET HER UP SOME MORE TILL AFTER CHRISTMAS TO PAIR HER UP SHE IS AROUND 15 MONTHS OLD.

I'm still torn on my opinion about breeding young or small females. Ultimately I guess what is meant to happen will happen. If she is not ready then she won't produce any eggs. I haven't heard of any females dying from breeding attempts but I suppose some could not be ready yet, get stressed and immunocompromised, and get sick in one way or another. Another downside would be if she produced a clutch of slugs, or mosly slugs, then that was pretty much a wasted breeding attempt, and wasted months that you could have been feeding her regularly to get more size on her. Also I'm going to make a generalized observation that smaller females lay less eggs than larger ones, so would you rather have a small clutch sooner or a larger clutch later? I'm not sure if there are any dry cut right or wrong answers here, but those are just some thoughts of mine.

I voted yes but I would not suggest that a first time breeder should breed all of his or her 1yr olds if they were heavy enough. As pointed out by a few others in this thread I would use my judgement and I would also feel for follicles. If the female in question is up to a healthy breeding weight, developing follicles and she is other wise healthy then she is telling you she is ready.

Ok here's my two little cents. The weight is only 1-3rd of the equation when it comes to breeding. As has been said before sexual maturity is another part. The other thing to look at is that Balls loose between 1/4th and 1/2 of their body weight when they lay eggs. I had a 3200 gram girl drop to 1500 grams after laying this year. Now you put all that stress on a younger female add in the weight loss and you might run in to problems. Then again you might not. You have to ask your self am I comfortable enough and knowledgeable with breeding and these animals in general to spot and handle a problem should one arise. IF the answer is no then its best to wait. That girl isn't going any where so why rush.

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Originally Posted by kellysballs

I voted yes but I would not suggest that a first time breeder should breed all of his or her 1yr olds if they were heavy enough. As pointed out by a few others in this thread I would use my judgement and I would also feel for follicles. If the female in question is up to a healthy breeding weight, developing follicles and she is other wise healthy then she is telling you she is ready.

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I agree with this. I actually have a 1050 gram het pied girl that I may breed this season. I am going to wait until around February or so to put her with my pied male. I will only breed the two if the male is producing sperm at the time, and if the female has follicles. I will not if the two conditions are not met.

We bred one of our 06 girls at around 1400 grams last Feb. She gave us 4 good eggs this year and is back on track eating and I'm hoping to gauge if she is receptive to a male early in 09.

We also bred our 1500 gram female (WC gravid- unknown age), and she gave us 5 good eggs, one tiny weird veined boob egg and one slug.

Both of these females went off feed on their own accord. We did not cool them, introduce males, hold food.... NOTHING. They began to produce follicles, remained off feed, hugged the cool side of the tub, so we took that oppurtunity to see if they were receptive to a male, and they took.

They were bred for a few months, from Feb-April. We got eggs in early June (Jun 5), they all hatched in September.

So, it's worth it to step back and let the females tell YOU when they are ready to breed rather than relying on their weight as the key decider in whether or not they want or can breed and lay successfully.

I would say wait untill her second or third winter. just because she is up to weight does NOT mean she is ready. Giving birth in any way is really really hard on any mommy.

She might not take, but if she's up to weight I don't think it will hurt anything to try pairing her up.

i thought they weren't sexually mature until they are 3

They are typically sexually mature earlier than by age three. A lot of people feel most comfortable waiting until the third winter and at least 1500g for the females.

If they went off feed and showed all the usual signs then I would give it a go.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

We bred one of our 06 girls at around 1400 grams last Feb. She gave us 4 good eggs this year and is back on track eating and I'm hoping to gauge if she is receptive to a male early in 09.

We also bred our 1500 gram female (WC gravid- unknown age), and she gave us 5 good eggs, one tiny weird veined boob egg and one slug.

Both of these females went off feed on their own accord. We did not cool them, introduce males, hold food.... NOTHING. They began to produce follicles, remained off feed, hugged the cool side of the tub, so we took that oppurtunity to see if they were receptive to a male, and they took.

They were bred for a few months, from Feb-April. We got eggs in early June (Jun 5), they all hatched in September.

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So, it's worth it to step back and let the females tell YOU when they are ready to breed rather than relying on their weight as the key decider in whether or not they want or can breed and lay successfully.

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i totally agree with this final statement.

Depends. If the female is long and lean, most likely no. If she has good length and has a good girth size, than maybe. But to me it's a bit small. 2,000 grams is my new minimum breeding size for females.

I voted no... I would wait until at least 1300g and 3 years old... but I was thinking... What about BP's in the wild... I'm sure there are girls out there that eat more than we provide and breed earlier than we set them up... I guess it all boils down on the girl :)

I will be breeding (3) 07 girls this year that are all near the 1500g mark.

1200 grams and 12 MONTHS -- I would not waste the male on her. But 1600- 1800 grams and 18 months. Bred a few of those girls this year. Some gave me good clutches -- some did not go. ALL are still alive and doing well. If they eat -- FEED THEM!!!!;)

i voted no , but hey do what feels right and if they want to breed then you gotta give em what they want, or like my wife ,they get all pissy and turn the heat off while your sleeping

I voted no. just my personal preference.

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Originally Posted by rishnack

i voted no , but hey do what feels right and if they want to breed then you gotta give em what they want, or like my wife ,they get all pissy and turn the heat off while your sleeping

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:rofl:

my female was 16 months and 1900 grams and im cuttin her 6 eggs on thursday. it was some het on het albino action so im hoping for some white babies :D

Would I, yes. My Ivories came from a just over 1K gram female but she was eating heavily up till ovulation and developing follicles (I studied).

Would I suggest it to anyone else? If they have to ask me this question and do not research and get a feel for what's right for their animal..I would say no.:oops:

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Originally Posted by Koolaid

What about BP's in the wild... I'm sure there are girls out there that eat more than we provide and breed earlier than we set them up... I guess it all boils down on the girl :)

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They are bred small. I have the opportunity to go through about 100 or so WC gravid female ball pythons a year. Some of them are good sized, what would be breeders for us. Some are large, even seen one 6'. Then some are small. I had one who was 700 grams after laying a clutch of 7 eggs. I've seen some that look like they were maybe 500-600 grams before they were bred to a male. Actually I should say mating.

Absolutely not--I want my females to reach their full potential. Just think...if a female is 1500 grams at 1 year old, how big is she going to be at 3?

I have a theory that ball pythons bred early will lay small clutches...possibly always. And that those bred at age 3 or more AND over 1500 grams will lay larger clutches, consistantly.
I intend to set up some experiments down the road to test this idea. If it's true, then all of this impatience I see is definitely NOT worth it.

I have a giant female who layed 13 eggs last season. Compare that with 4 eggs...no contest.
Her babies are growing like weeds. I wouldn't be surprised if they're over 1500 grams by age 2, if not sooner...but I won't breed them until they are at least 3.

Well I have an early 08 CH female that if she keeps eating like she is will pass the 1000g mark easily by the end of the year. I still wouldn't be comfortable breeding her A) because she is my first BP and has a soft spot in my heart so I would be devestated if something went wrong and we lost her and B) I just am not in that much of a rush to start. I think based on what I've seen 1500g is a good weight if they are producing follicles. I have a 1650g female that will be breeding this year but she's an 04 and has been bred previously just need to decide which male to throw at her :D

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I have a giant female who layed 13 eggs last season. Compare that with 4 eggs...no contest.
Her babies are growing like weeds. I wouldn't be surprised if they're over 1500 grams by age 2, if not sooner...but I won't breed them until they are at least 3.

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what was the average hatchling weight?

I didn't really grab an average, but virtually none of them were under 70 grams--I just glanced at a few and came up with 2 that were 72, and one that was 76 out of the egg. Decently big babies.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I have a theory that ball pythons bred early will lay small clutches...possibly always. And that those bred at age 3 or more AND over 1500 grams will lay larger clutches, consistantly.

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Actually, that's not a new idea .... Tracy Barker of VPI has been promoting that for probably almost 10 years now, maybe longer ... I'm pretty sure she has data to back it up as well, she's meticulous about keeping records. I can't remember if it's covered in the book though. :confuzd:

Hope this helps.

-adam

I didn't think it was a new idea--I've seen it talked about here and there, and came across it suggested by an African House Snake breeder, too. Thanks, Adam. I have the NERD book, but the not the VPI one yet ($).

I'll have to see if I can get in touch with her sometime, and see if she DOES have records on it. (Or if the data is correlated...).

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

my female was 16 months and 1900 grams and im cuttin her 6 eggs on thursday. it was some het on het albino action so im hoping for some white babies :D

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Good luck with the getting some albinos! I bred two pastel females this past season also at about 16 months old and the first one gave me six eggs with 2.1 Super Pastel and the second gave me one fertile and three duds with .1 Super Pastel.

As to the OPs original question.

If you are a curious person interested in pushing boundarys then go for it and see what happens. For me there was no way I had the patience to wait one more year to produce some Super Pastels.

If you like the comfort of established protocols and are of a more patient personallity then you might feel better giving her one more year.

Not that I am promoting it or dismissing it, but in today’s world of morphs waiting 3 years puts you behind the 8 ball (no pun intended Adam). With people working now with 2 and 3 gene animals on a regular basis and if you are just starting out (particularly with recessive Hets) if you are waiting till the girls are 3 years of age you will be on the back side of the curve, way back. Think about it. If your goal is to produce something like a Snow morph and you are starting with 1.1 Het Axanthics and 1.1 Het Albinos that you just bought this year you will finally be breeding for a chance at axanthics and albinos in 2011 and they will not be born until 2012. Now you have to raise them up to breed in 2015 for the double het babies in 2016. Raise them up 3 more years and your breeding them in 2019 season and getting babies in 2020. By 2020 other breeders will be working on their four recessive gene or more animals! While yes I think certain conditions should be met before breeding any animal, I also think you have to use some forward thought about your goals! Also on the same note since I have yet to experience everything in the hobby and am still learning (not that I think the learning will ever really stop) I tend to lean on sources and spend money where other people may not, such as right now all of our females and males see a vet to get a clean bill of health before they start breeding. One day maybe I will have a really good understanding of ball python health, but currently so many things exist that don't have readily visible signs an amateur such as I could miss I believe it is worth the money. Also my wife and I are discussing down the line after a female lays her eggs taking her back to the vet after a couple weeks of zoning for another check up on her health. (Most vets give a group discount if you take a large number of the same type of animal in at the same time, our last bill for 10 snakes read as a snake herd. Help I'm being stampeded by a herd of snakes! :O)

On a side note my wife is looking into going back to school for vet tech or an actual vet. This will be her third degree and I don't think she still knows what she want to do for a living once she grows up! :weirdface

I'm just not willing to risk an animal not reaching her full potential simply because I was impatient and wanted to 'get ahead of the game'. I can't see that it's worth it in the long run. (I want all my females to lay 13 egg clutches, lol).

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm just not willing to risk an animal not reaching her full potential simply because I was impatient and wanted to 'get ahead of the game'. I can't see that it's worth it in the long run. (I want all my females to lay 13 egg clutches, lol).

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There's no guarantee that you are going to get larger clutches simply because you waited.

I know my animals and know when I feel they are ready. That is what I go by. Everyone has to make their own decision, but I'm not going to crucify someone if they decide to breed young females.

yes! my plans for next year mean breeding my normal female to my lemon pastel male, and the female will be like 17 months and hopefully around 1300 g's considering how much she eats. but if i get to the point where i am breeding lots, i might wait a little longer since ill have more breeding options, but for now, no waiting. im too impatient. if i could id brred her now at 5-ish months old!

There's no guarantee of larger clutches if you wait, no--of course not. But increased likelihood of it? That appears to be there. And that's worth it.

From what observations I've been hearing, females that start off laying small clutches are likely to keep laying small clutches--etc. And females first bred when they are small are much more likely to lay small clutches than those first bred when they are larger. Over the course of a female's life, if that's true by even one little egg, that adds up in a HUGE way.

Wow.....lots of good info here.

The cans and wills of this hobby sometimes outweigh the shoulds. Can a snake of a certain size breed, you bet they can, should they, probably not.

Although snakes in the wild are probably makin babies far before we would consider them "ready" there are a lot of different variables there too. Just like anything else some females mature far faster then others. Some will be ready by 12 months, however very far and few between. If you plan to breed anything, be it balls or corns, do your homework. Coming to the forum and asking questions is a great idea, however sometimes the question asked shows the majority that you are far to new to the hobby to be attempting certain things. Not saying you are new, just saying in general here.

Guess the final thing is, if you have to ask if shes ready, your not.

Let's apply just a tiny bit of logic and and the laws of natural selection to that 'wild snakes' scenario. I'm not saying this is how it is...but it's definitely smart, and nature is often smart.

If the population of ball pythons in an area is high, then the likelihood of young females encountering a male is also very high--so they will breed when they are young and small...and will lay smaller clutches...contributing less to an already high population, and perhaps making it more likely that their offspring will survive when competition for food is high.

If the population of ball pythons in an area is quite low, then females will be more likely to encounter their first male when they are older and larger--and so they will lay a larger clutch, and will have more offspring to eat more plentiful prey items, and survive what might be a higher predation rate.

This makes sense to me.

You can pontificate until the fake magical rocks come home but it doesn't change the fact that people are going to make their own decisions and do what they want or feel is right. I personally would love to hear fact and statistical data from experts rather than theory and speculation from non experts. Just my possibly worthless 2 cents... ;)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Let's apply just a tiny bit of logic and and the laws of natural selection to that 'wild snakes' scenario. I'm not saying this is how it is...but it's definitely smart, and nature is often smart.

If the population of ball pythons in an area is high, then the likelihood of young females encountering a male is also very high--so they will breed when they are young and small...and will lay smaller clutches...contributing less to an already high population, and perhaps making it more likely that their offspring will survive when competition for food is high.

If the population of ball pythons in an area is quite low, then females will be more likely to encounter their first male when they are older and larger--and so they will lay a larger clutch, and will have more offspring to eat more plentiful prey items, and survive what might be a higher predation rate.

This makes sense to me.

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Using your theory I could also make the following logical arguement for another practice looked down on:

If feeding is good and the girl grows fast then she should lay more eggs due to a plentiful food source. If food is hard to come by then smaller clutches.

With that said maybe power feeding a snake is the way to make it have larger clutches or at least feeding more often than we do!

(The above statement in no way reflects my own opinion. It is simply being used as a supporter for an arguement.)

Breed a year old female if up to weight, nah, not my style.... I can wait another year. Patience is important to me....

I might consider breeding a 2-year-old if it was up to 1500 grams at age 1, but I would rather wait til they're 3. My thinking is this--if she's 1500 grams at age 1, how big will she be in another year or two? I wouldn't want to stunt her growth. lol