new colour patterns / Colors? you tell me.

Having sold a ASF's to a few members of BP.net, many of you have seen what my different lines of asf's look like. All the ones I have ever produced can easily be broken into 3 main groups (sorry don't know the official names)

1) caped - both albino and non albino... all white with small patch of color on back shoulder blades

2) Gremlin - both albino and non albino.... body all one color with a stripe on the head.

3) normal - both albino and non albino... mostly colored back with all or mostly white head

Well, I have crossed all of my lines through several generations. I just noticed something in my last batch that is really throwing me for a loop. One trio produced for me the first ever (for me) in one litter 3 different solid colored asf's!!!! the entire body from head to toe one color. They are still nursing, so pics will come as soon as eyes open. they include:

1.) Very light brown (don't think albino)
2.) very dark grey almost black
3.) ALL WHITE!!! (Don't think albino)

Promise pics will come as soon as their eyes are all the way open. I have seen pics before of solid ASF's... but what colours of solid are there? does anyone have a super light brown one? Or an all white????

I dont have any of yours but I thought I would answer as to what I have seen with mine.. I just produced my own solids.. I have a darker brown she looks like brindle.. and i have a light tan.. I havent gotten white yet.. I also dont have albino no one around here has them.. I can take pictures as well if you wish to see..

Yes!!! pics are always welcome. I promise to provide pictures as soon as the eyes are open!

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Having sold a ASF's to a few members of BP.net, many of you have seen what my different lines of asf's look like. All the ones I have ever produced can easily be broken into 3 main groups (sorry don't know the official names)

1) caped - both albino and non albino... all white with small patch of color on back shoulder blades

2) Gremlin - both albino and non albino.... body all one color with a stripe on the head.

3) normal - both albino and non albino... mostly colored back with all or mostly white head

Well, I have crossed all of my lines through several generations. I just noticed something in my last batch that is really throwing me for a loop. One trio produced for me the first ever (for me) in one litter 3 different solid colored asf's!!!! the entire body from head to toe one color. They are still nursing, so pics will come as soon as eyes open. they include:

1.) Very light brown (don't think albino)
2.) very dark grey almost black
3.) ALL WHITE!!! (Don't think albino)

Promise pics will come as soon as their eyes are all the way open. I have seen pics before of solid ASF's... but what colours of solid are there? does anyone have a super light brown one? Or an all white????

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Mike, the white spotting is much like a co-dominant effect.

The head spot (your gremlin) is the heterozygous form of white spotting.

The white head and white butt ( or Pieds, also what you call Caped and Normal) are just two varying degrees of extreme of the homozygous form of white spotting.

The self (all one color) are the rats that do not have the gene for white spotting.



Breeding two head spotted rats will give you Selfs, head spotted, and pieds.

Breeding two pieds together will give you all pieds.

Breeding a pied to a self will give you all head spots.


Head spotting : Heterozygous for White Spotting
Pied: Homozygous for White Spotting
Self: Normal, no spotting gene


I am interested in seeing the all white one. When you get a chance ;) If the eyes are pink, that would be a true albino.

The yellow ones aren't actually albinos, they resemble the Pink eyed dilution of domestic rats.

Thanks for that explanation connie. I have said it once, and will say it again. You really know your stuff when it comes to rats. Thanks for sharing!

I will post pictures of the selfs as soon as their eyes are all the way open (they are not open at all now)

what do you get when you breed two selfs?

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Originally Posted by mcavana

what do you get when you breed two selfs?

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You'd just get more selfs, since they dont have any white spotting genes to pass along.

Maybe with the strength of the white spotting out of the way, it will be easier to determine the true genetics of their colors. :D

Questions:

1.) Does ANYONE out there have an all white ASF? (albino or non albino)

2.) If it is in fact an all white ASF, and not albino... how does that happen? Is there something wrong with it?

3.) isn't the pink eye delusion in normal rats a bad thing? would that mean it is a bad thing with ASF's to for some reason?

I have never seen an all white ASF. If it is an all white ASF with pink eyes, it could be the first true albino ASF.

Remember, an albino is lacking all color, making it white with pink eyes.


The yellow/orange ASF's people call albinos, are NOT albinos. It is a melanin dilution, it dilutes the browns and blacks, leaving yellow and red behind. It is in no way an albino. In domestic rats it is called the Pink Eyed Dilute (PED), and another gene of less potency, the Red Eyed Dilute (RED).


So far, none of my PED ASF's or the Cinnamons (cinnamons/brown are what I suspect to be RED) have any major side effects.

Ok... I think I get what you are saying. So a true albino rat is ONLY all white with red eyes. Is that correct? In other words, even if the eyes are red, if there is any color on fir other then white, it is a Pink Eye Dilluted and not an albino?

If it is all white with black eyes... what does that mean?

Here is a twist in the question for you connie.... moving away from rodents and talking about snakes... an albino ball python. Is it really an albino??? or is it actually another example of pink eye dilluted?

great conversation by the way... thanks!!!

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Ok... I think I get what you are saying. So a true albino rat is ONLY all white with red eyes. Is that correct? In other words, even if the eyes are red, if there is any color on fir other then white, it is a Pink Eye Dilluted and not an albino?

If it is all white with black eyes... what does that mean?

Here is a twist in the question for you connie.... moving away from rodents and talking about snakes... an albino ball python. Is it really an albino??? or is it actually another example of pink eye dilluted?

great conversation by the way... thanks!!!

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It's difficult to say, and I certainly don't presume to know if the mammalian albino is the same all across the board as well as reptilian albino definition.

The definition for Albinism in the Domestic rat, albino simply means the animal has no melanin production. Which is why they are white with pink eyes.

Obviously the albino Ball python seems to be producing the Yellow Phaeomelanin, and not producing the blacks or browns. But I don't know if the yellow is actually yellow pigment continuing to be produced, or if it is some other trait that produces yellow coloring. I just don't have that answer.

However, in rats, the dilute genes that create a yellow or orange and blue are specifically considered dilutes.

They (PED rats) very well could be considered a form of albinism, I'm just following the lead of already described scientific terms for the ASF's based on the domestic rat and calling them dilutes.


Oh, btw, there are ways of creating an all white rat with black eyes and not be a genetically true albino. Most often they selectively breed for a higher and higher white animal, or have control of other specific genes that limit the area that the pigment cells travel to on the body.

well, we will see. right now it is still more pink then white... but all its siblins I can already clearly see what the pattern and color they will be. It still remains patternless.... with only white hairs. I would say it is about a week from having eyes all the way open.

Hey Mike I have a few solid colored offspring from your babies.

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

well, we will see. right now it is still more pink then white... but all its siblins I can already clearly see what the pattern and color they will be. It still remains patternless.... with only white hairs. I would say it is about a week from having eyes all the way open.

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Well make them hurry up and grow! You could have the first albino ASF Mike! :D

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Originally Posted by dacalio

Hey Mike I have a few solid colored offspring from your babies.

David

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what colours do you have so far?

Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Questions:

1.) Does ANYONE out there have an all white ASF? (albino or non albino)

2.) If it is in fact an all white ASF, and not albino... how does that happen? Is there something wrong with it?

3.) isn't the pink eye delusion in normal rats a bad thing? would that mean it is a bad thing with ASF's to for some reason?

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Hey mike, Right now I just got my first litter from one female and on day four or so Ive been looking at colors, and I have three solid white ones. There has been no albinos in the groups the guy I get mine from, so these could very well be all white. Im not sure yet if it is albino, but im sure it would have come up by now in any of the members here who have had them from him, or heck even in his own stock.

Heres a few pictures

Next to two normals

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/DSC00948.jpg
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/DSC00949.jpg

on the whole pile

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/DSC00950.jpg

Are these albinos or pure whites? I think id rather have albinos, but Id love to have a solid white one as well

My first impression of them singly is they are white, but in the pile it looks like they are Pied Fawns.

where did you get them from? (just curious.... I figure I have sold to enough people now that my colony has made its way around the world a time or two... :)

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Originally Posted by mcavana

where did you get them from? (just curious.... I figure I have sold to enough people now that my colony has made its way around the world a time or two... :)

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Greg Bennet( Or how ever you spell his last name)

[QUOTE=Beardedragon;895345]Greg Bennet( Or how ever you spell his last name)[/QUOTE


Don't think I have any of his, or he has any of mine.... That said, who knows! they could have all originated from just a few origional stock!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well make them hurry up and grow! You could have the first albino ASF Mike! :D

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Darn it!... I am starting to think that this is not going to happen.

The light tan one is the only one of the 3 that has opened his eyes so far, and he is my first pink eye dillute self. his entire coat is very light tan, and he has pink eyes.

Still waiting on the other two selfs to open their eyes (one is very dark grey or black.... the other is the white / possibly turning light tan)

[QUOTE=mcavana;895368]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Greg Bennet( Or how ever you spell his last name)[/QUOTE


Don't think I have any of his, or he has any of mine.... That said, who knows! they could have all originated from just a few origional stock!

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What do you think, are these fawns or white ones like your seeing?

too early to tell.

My luck struck again, I found one of the white ones dead on the bottom of the pile up:rage: Good news is that rest are doing great, but im still pretty bummed about it.

well, very light brown patches have come in on what I thought were "white" ASF's.... Oh well.