Whats up with this?

I went to the show in Marlyand yesterday and was pretty shocked at some of the prices...50 for a yellowbelly male and what I thought was really surprising was 350 for spotnose males. This was from a relatively large breeder as well. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to prices and what not, but man, don't people put any value on the animals they produce? I know I shouldn't get hung up on prices yada yada but it kinda sucks when people, especially people who are well known within the community dumb on morphs to what I can only assume is to make a quick buck. Oh well, guess I can only keep trying to breed quality animals and try to "bring down the market" lol. Sorry for the rant, but it was bothering me lol.

corn snakes anyone???? that is the way it is heading....

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Originally Posted by Inferno

corn snakes anyone???? that is the way it is heading....

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Yeah, that's been said quite a few times before but I think that we will always see real high quality co-doms commanding a better price than a lower quality animal of the same morph. However it is just supply and demand! I believe that there is always going to be a high demand for designer morphs and some of the higher end recessives. Plus you have to remember that there are new morphs and combinations being produced every day!

To the OP in general the price on a male is always going to be much lower than a female (at least on lower end morphs) just look at the price difference between a het pied male and a het pied female! Het male is usually around $75-100 but a female will run you $5-600+ for a baby!

I went to the Manchester Expo this weekend and was a bit disapointed too. It wasn't the cheap prices, but rather the lack of nice morphs available. Seems like everyone had spiders and bees (although none as nice as mine), and lots of normals. Aside from that I only saw a couple of mojos and a few albinos. Oh well, at least I came home with as much money as I left with (not counting gas)!!!

Two words
SELECTIVE BREEDING! Its like Nike use to say.. JUST DO IT!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Two words
SELECTIVE BREEDING! Its like Nike use to say.. JUST DO IT!

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Nike doesn't say that anymore?

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Originally Posted by Jenn

I went to the Manchester Expo this weekend and was a bit disapointed too. It wasn't the cheap prices, but rather the lack of nice morphs available. Seems like everyone had spiders and bees (although none as nice as mine), and lots of normals. Aside from that I only saw a couple of mojos and a few albinos. Oh well, at least I came home with as much money as I left with (not counting gas)!!!

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I don't know it's all in how you look at things. I mean I saw some real nice BPs at that show too, like you said though, lots of albinos, spiders and pastels but not much else. Though I did see a couple of really nice cinnies that I was soooooo tempted to pick up lol. I didn't see a single pied there :( not that I would be able to buy one but I just love looking at them :D. I still came away with a wicked nice little albino king, a sweet ghost corn and an anery het opal corn so I was happy.
Look, as long as there is a market for ball pythons (and I think there will be for a long time with all the people that love them) there's going to be changes in prices. As things become more readily available, like the pastels, YBs, spiders etc.... the price will go down! I mean look at some of the older ads on Fauna, only 4-5 years ago spiders were selling for upwards of 20 thousand dollars!

I saw quite a few male YB's in Daytona for $50. I do think this is a little too cheap, but it is kind of hard to justify a high price for them anymore with all of the CH YB's that come in every year. I did just finally break down and bought one myself. I paid a little more for mine because it is a really nice one. I figured for the price why not. I am going the long way (yb male to normal female and raise up the female YB offspring) to make a few ivories just because I like them and had an extra space in a rack. Even though by the time I produce a ivory they will probably only be a couple hundred dollars they will always be a sweet morph.

Supply and demand.... Then throw on the effects of the economy...

lol

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Originally Posted by Jenn

I went to the Manchester Expo this weekend and was a bit disapointed too. It wasn't the cheap prices, but rather the lack of nice morphs available. Seems like everyone had spiders and bees (although none as nice as mine), and lots of normals. Aside from that I only saw a couple of mojos and a few albinos. Oh well, at least I came home with as much money as I left with (not counting gas)!!!

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A Lot of Vendors dont bring much high end to Manchester because it doesn't sell there. We had 600 snakes on our tables (about 45 of them ball morphs) and sold about 150, all were less than $200ea, most were less than $100 ea. We did good $$ and more than most other dealers there, but also sold a lot of low end balls, and colubrids. A Lot of high end morphs are not selling so not as many people are taking them to shows, and stressing them out.
Also a lot of animals are being exported so the market is drying up. This winter prices will go back up, and sales will be better. The wholesale market is already going up in price, about 2 months early this year.

Just my 2 cents.

Right now my take on it is we are in recession and well on our way to depression. With that said disposable incomes are drying up. Some people are panicing because they don't want to hold on and really taking the quality of what you find at shows down. A lot of larger breeders are probably slowing down on the number of shows they go to since they can not compete price wise with "John Doe" snake breeder who is not only there to make a quick buck, but also "has" to pay his bills. It has almost become a regular sight on kingsnake to see someone selling their collection to pay for this or that. The way you have to look at it is some deals can be had right now, but generally most of what you see are lower quality animals that will take years to breed any quality back into the lines. Those who don't produce their own food are also getting hit with higher costs as well as those that do produce their own food supplies, only difference is the guy producing his own is seeing 10% increase while the guy buying food direct is seeing 25% or more increases. You will see a drastic increase in the collection sales for a couple of years and the market will be very crazy and people who thought they were going to get in and be rich in a couple years are starting to learn it takes a little more than buying a couple of snakes and sticking them together to even break even in the current market.

OK, Poor, and no business model businesses will fall and those that have good models might be able to muttle through. Only those with Very good to exceptional business models are going to be able to sustain their current sales or increase them for the next year or so.

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

A Lot of Vendors dont bring much high end to Manchester because it doesn't sell there. We had 600 snakes on our tables (about 45 of them ball morphs) and sold about 150, all were less than $200ea, most were less than $100 ea. We did good $$ and more than most other dealers there, but also sold a lot of low end balls, and colubrids. A Lot of high end morphs are not selling so not as many people are taking them to shows, and stressing them out.
Also a lot of animals are being exported so the market is drying up. This winter prices will go back up, and sales will be better. The wholesale market is already going up in price, about 2 months early this year.

Just my 2 cents.

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Thanks. I was wondering why I came home with so much money!!

It's just simple supply and demand. It's not shocking, has little to do with the economy, and it has been happening year after year for a very long time in the ball python market.

You also have to realize that for many people "show prices" are always much lower than "online prices" since shows are almost always cash and carry. No shipping, no paperwork, no invoices, no boxes, and for some guys ... no taxes. Just sayin.

Plus, there are a ton of yellow bellies out there ... breeder yellow belly males were selling last year for very reasonable prices and made a great entry into the ball morph market for a lot of people. This year, they're selling their offspring and don't need to make a whole heck of a lot of money to cover their investment and pay their food bills.

Something that will really cook your noodle is this ... if they're being sold for $50 on a table at a show, what are the resellers buying them for? OUCH.

If it makes anyone feel any better about the "investments" that they've made in the ball python market, I paid $5,000.00 for a het albino male in 1996. They ain't $5,000.00 anymore. ;) Supply and Demand ... nothing more.

-adam

Also, look how ugly some of these cheaper snakes are. If the breeders broke into their Hold back stock you wouldnt be seeing these super low prices...

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Also, look how ugly some of these cheaper snakes are. If the breeders broke into their Hold back stock you wouldnt be seeing these super low prices...

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Again Selective Breeding :D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Again Selective Breeding :D

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Yupers! You can ask me about any normal in my collection and they will have a male morph that will make nice babys with them, not ugly brown ones.

i cant wait for the day to come were I'll be able to buy a pied for 200 bucks.

Sorry. I doubt it will ever come though.

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Originally Posted by N4S

i cant wait for the day to come were I'll be able to buy a pied for 200 bucks.

Sorry. I doubt it will ever come though.

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I can....I think I'll roll over and die when that day comes

Yea I think the spotnoses just rubbed me the wrong way since most others I see are being offered at way higher than 350 (I might be alittle biased too because I have one lol). One thing that has never made sense to me, is that why male codoms are cheaper than females. From a buisiness standpoint, males are worth way more because a single male can be bred to a large number of females, whereas a morph female can only breed once a year. Seems like if someone has a codom project, selling males for cheaper, or cheaper than females, is a quick easy way to kill that project, from a money standpoint. Well, like everyone's been saying, qualitly should always win out in the end!

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Originally Posted by kthulhu

Yea I think the spotnoses just rubbed me the wrong way since most others I see are being offered at way higher than 350 (I might be alittle biased too because I have one lol). One thing that has never made sense to me, is that why male codoms are cheaper than females. From a buisiness standpoint, males are worth way more because a single male can be bred to a large number of females, whereas a morph female can only breed once a year. Seems like if someone has a codom project, selling males for cheaper, or cheaper than females, is a quick easy way to kill that project, from a money standpoint. Well, like everyone's been saying, qualitly should always win out in the end!

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Female co-doms are worth more because most people buy a male co-dom, breed it to normal females ... dump the males they produce as fast as they can and try and hold on to as many females as they can afford to keep in order to make supers (homozygous) and crosses with their other co-dom males. More males available = more supply = lower price ... less females available = less supply = higher price ... supply and demand ... basic economics ... no mystery there.

-adam

Some people are just getting rid of their stuff, that's all. If that means a decent deal for you and you see an animal you like, then snatch it up. Adam, how did you become such an expert at economics!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Female co-doms are worth more because most people buy a male co-dom, breed it to normal females ... dump the males they produce as fast as they can and try and hold on to as many females as they can afford to keep in order to make supers (homozygous) and crosses with their other co-dom males. More males available = more supply = lower price ... less females available = less supply = higher price ... supply and demand ... basic economics ... no mystery there.

-adam

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:P I'm just poking fun, but no he's right it's simple economics...maybe in 2010 ball pythons will be on the 1 Trillion $ bail out ;)