are these balls worth this price asked?

could someone tell me if these are actually worth the 600 dollars i can purchase all 3 for? 1.0 2008 ALBINO BALL PYTHON AND 2.3 66% HET ALBINOS BALL PYTHONS FOR SALE

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a4...8pastel010.jpg

I am not really sure which three you are talking about but I wouldn't buy anything from someone who doesn't even clean before taking a picture. That to me says no, not worth it.

Seems like a good deal to me! A male albino runs around $500 at least nowadays, and to throw in some phets... I'd say go for it if your looking to strat an albino project.

That cage looks pretty gross... i wouldnt, its pretty good price for all of them, but that cage is a huge turn off.

no lol im a carpet python lover i dont care much for ball pythons but i thought if it was a good deal and someone from the form wanted them i would turn them on to them so they could purchase them.

I would never have any of my BPs in a tank with dried up urine in it. I check them everyday, at least twice a day. & why would they take a pic of a filfthy tank??? I definitely would not buy from that breeder!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xanaxez

no lol im a carpet python lover i dont care much for ball pythons but i thought if it was a good deal and someone from the form wanted them i would turn them on to them so they could purchase them.

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Please don't try to sell someone else's snakes here.

sorry jlc, i was just inquiring i wasnt trying to sell them for anyone i just figured if someone was interested since i wasnt and it was a good price then i would pass it on to them. i didnt mean any harm if it caused any.

If someone can't even do a simple cleaning job before posting pics (or is content with them looking like this) then I would not be too inclined to purchase from them. From the pic they look like good looking animals though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

If someone can't even do a simple cleaning job before posting pics (or is content with them looking like this) then I would not be too inclined to purchase from them. From the pic they look like good looking animals though.

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Two things I dislike, unclean caging in pics and animals with shed stuck to them. Bad practice!

Caging is going to look like that and way worse then that at some point, but not making the effort to post pics in a clean environment is poor presentation. Casts a shadow over a seller straight away and first impressions really do count, they can make or break you in a potential customers eyes.

well its a good deal cause theres more females then males in the hets group . plus the albino all together ya its easily worth $600.00

and to me that cage looks like is the hatching cage ,
theres perilite underneath the papertowel so that tells me its set up to stay moist for the balls until their first shed . yes i would clean it more often , but the discoloartion isnt always from urine , could be residue from the eggs coming off the balls ..

not justifying their tank condition but shouldnt just jump to "filthy cage " determination without knowing ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

Two things I dislike, unclean caging in pics and animals with shed stuck to them. Bad practice!

Caging is going to look like that and way worse then that at some point, but not making the effort to post pics in a clean environment is poor presentation. Casts a shadow over a seller straight away and first impressions really do count, they can make or break you in a potential customers eyes.

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It depends on the stuck skin, and the situation. My ball python tends to have bad sheds on his head, where a few scales are left behind. His humidity is up (my house is an avg 70-80% consistently) but it still just doesn't come off.
Peeling, easily fixable stuck shed though is definitely a turn off.

I would think they would at least clean before a picture... meh. I would be immediately turned off by the dirtiness. Just because it's me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheVipersHouse

well its a good deal cause theres more females then males in the hets group . plus the albino all together ya its easily worth $600.00

and to me that cage looks like is the hatching cage ,
theres perilite underneath the papertowel so that tells me its set up to stay moist for the balls until their first shed . yes i would clean it more often , but the discoloartion isnt always from urine , could be residue from the eggs coming off the balls ..

not justifying their tank condition but shouldnt just jump to "filthy cage " determination without knowing ...

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I don't believe, judging by the pics and everyone else's reactions, that stating the tank is filthy or dirty, is out of line. It may well be egg residue, but then I would wonder if those snakes will be sold before having their first few meals. Either way, I (this is my opinion) would not purchase from this breeder.

ive seen this picture on another local forum that i visit regularly lately..... according to what i read, they will include one male with the albino for 600.00 not all 4 for that price unless he's listing it somewhere else, he even told me he would include 25 mice, cause i love albinos and commented on them.

However i agree with the rest about the pic on cleaniness, I breed shih tzu's and i freak out if the picture is not just right, because I dont want some interested buyer to think my babies are dirty or come from a bad environment, i have seen some peoples pictures as far as pups are concerned and wouldnt buy them with a million bucks just because of the conditions they are kept in. However that being said that may not be the permanent enclosures for those snakes, he may have just used that to keep them all together for that particular pic, how easy is it to take a picture of 4 snakes together, when they are all trying to slither away lol

I'm suprised no one said to ask the breeder more questions before jumping to conclusions about the cleanliness. Ask if there is a reason the enclosure isn't clean and if this is a normal practice for their tubs. Ask about their husbandry practices.

For all we know they cleaned them immediately after taking the pic, and didn't realize how much of an impact that has on potential buyers. Maybe it was just temporary enclosure for the picture. The only thing that picture tells you about the breeder is they have one enclosure with a few urine stains that may or may not be a permament home for BPs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

I'm suprised no one said to ask the breeder more questions before jumping to conclusions about the cleanliness. Ask if there is a reason the enclosure isn't clean and if this is a normal practice for their tubs. Ask about their husbandry practices.

For all we know they cleaned them immediately after taking the pic, and didn't realize how much of an impact that has on potential buyers. Maybe it was just temporary enclosure for the picture. The only thing that picture tells you about the breeder is they have one enclosure with a few urine stains that may or may not be a permament home for BPs.

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I second this..:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

The only thing that picture tells you about the breeder is they have one enclosure with a few urine stains that may or may not be a permament home for BPs.

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That might be the only thing that picture tells YOU, but it tells me that the seller had the time to take the tub out and snap the picture in order to post it on the internet in an attempt to put money in his/her pocket BEFORE he/she had time to take care of his/her animals by cleaning the tub. It says a lot to me about this persons priorities ... People can excuse it any way that they like, but if a person doesn't take the 2 seconds needed to change the paper in a tub before snapping a picture with the intent of presenting their animals to the world, I have to wonder about the conditions of the animals that we're not seeing pictures of.

There's another way to look at it ... putting pictures of your animals for sale up on the internet to me is no different than going on a job interview ... you're asking people to look at what you have to offer and give you money in exchange ... I wouldn't dream of going on a job interview without being bathed, wearing clean clothes, and having a fresh hair cut ... As someone that has hired many people in the past, I'd expect the same from the people applying for the job. It says a lot about who they are ... their attention to detail ... their respect for themselves and what they have to offer ... to me, that means almost as much as what they are offering in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I feel that when you bring a living creature into your care, it's care is not just an important thing ... it's the ONLY thing. Regardless of the picture, the tub should have been cleaned as soon as it was opened or taken out of the rack or whatever. Those animals are at the mercy of their keeper and it's the keepers responsibility to provide them with a clean and healthy environment.

I'll hop off my soap box now ... sorry for the ramble, but I have very strong feelings about caring for living things.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

That might be the only thing that picture tells YOU, but it tells me that the seller had the time to take the tub out and snap the picture in order to post it on the internet in an attempt to put money in his/her pocket BEFORE he/she had time to take care of his/her animals by cleaning the tub. It says a lot to me about this persons priorities ... People can excuse it any way that they like, but if a person doesn't take the 2 seconds needed to change the paper in a tub before snapping a picture with the intent of presenting their animals to the world, I have to wonder about the conditions of the animals that we're not seeing pictures of.

There's another way to look at it ... putting pictures of your animals for sale up on the internet to me is no different than going on a job interview ... you're asking people to look at what you have to offer and give you money in exchange ... I wouldn't dream of going on a job interview without being bathed, wearing clean clothes, and having a fresh hair cut ... As someone that has hired many people in the past, I'd expect the same from the people applying for the job. It says a lot about who they are ... their attention to detail ... their respect for themselves and what they have to offer ... to me, that means almost as much as what they are offering in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I feel that when you bring a living creature into your care, it's care is not just an important thing ... it's the ONLY thing. Regardless of the picture, the tub should have been cleaned as soon as it was opened or taken out of the rack or whatever. Those animals are at the mercy of their keeper and it's the keepers responsibility to provide them with a clean and healthy environment.

I'll hop off my soap box now ... sorry for the ramble, but I have very strong feelings about caring for living things.

-adam

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I second this strongly. As keepers, it is our responsibility to protect these creatures. This means taking the time to keep their enclosures as immaculate as possible (unclean habitats lead to so many diseases that it is insane to not practice exceptional hygiene). Maybe this enclosure was cleaned immediately afterwards, but why would someone take a pic & post it when the enclosure is unclean? To me, that is a major red flag.

I dont know about you guys, but I love using newspaper for this very reason. It gives me a great excuse to take out my babies, give em a once over, and clean their tanks at the same time.

I just love going into the snake room, saying hello for a little bit and taking 2 seconds to clean out some soiled paper. Like i said, it likes my "time" with my fellas... If I used aspen or something I dont think I would get enough oppurtunities to say helo as much as I like too.

I gotta disagree guys. I agree that I wouldn't go buying piedbald's from him for "piedbald prices." But the snakes look healthy, as long as they're at a size that I know they ate a couple meals. Also you can ask for references! Might be pleasantly or unpleasantly surprised when you pop that question. Yes the tank is dirty, but you're paying a "dirty tank" price. You want clean tanks 24/7 then go to snake keeper or somebody that EVERYONE knows is squared up on the husbandry end and pay the full whatever. I keep my snakes very clean, but that doesn't mean I'm against taking them from dirty surrounding and cleaning them up, esp if I'm happy with the quality of the animal and the price is right. I've adopted a couple females from terrible conditions that are now some of my favorite animals and you could never tell from looking at them now that they came from a "dirty" breeder. I have animals from the most overpriced breeders because theyre "famous" and from no name small breeders like myself, love them all, wouldn't trade them for the world!! (Maybe a female pied though!) lol The genes won't get pee on them...I promise.

PS. next time you want to pass on good deals feel free to message me with them xanaxez. Heart was in the right place! :gj:

I don't think anyone was suggesting that nobody should ever buy from someone that posts a dirty picture. Just folks expressing that THEY would choose to pass on something like that and giving their reasons why. A perfectly clean background on a photo is no guarantee of quality....just as a dirty cage is no certainty of illness or scamminess. But each is ONE PIECE of the puzzle you must try to put together yourself each and every time you choose to take the risk of buying an animal online from someone you don't know.

i am kind of at in dilemma. One side of me says YES buy them, do QT, and enjoy your good deal on the bp's. the other side says NO, don't do it. if the snake tank looks like this, what could the other snake and rodent(if he has them) look like? I am very picky about what my snakes get and eat.

that being said i would not get them.

Hi,

I am also quite curious about the name they have chosen for this picture?

"2008pastel010.jpg"

Were they taking a series of pictures and batch renamed or something?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

but you're paying a "dirty tank" price.

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That's an interesting idea ... so is a "respiratory infection" price ok too? How about a "malnourished" price? At what point does disrespecting the animals to the point where a "deal" can justify giving sub standard care of a living creature that relies on it's keeper for health and happyness become acceptable?

These are precious lives that deserve better than to be "dealt cheap" ... not some old pickup truck that the seller is knocking $100 bucks off of cause it needs a wash and some armor all.

-adam

Call me charitatble, but those snakes did nothing wrong and might need a good new home....if I can get a nice snake for a good price..kill me but I'd do it...And those snakes don't look malnourished...and to hint that they already have resp. infections is a little harsh...theres also alot more work that needs to be done besides looking at a picture and an ad...I always talk to breeders on the phone and get a feel for what they're like...maybe he's selling them cheap because nobody is buying them for the same price as the reputable breeders...and that pic does look like its in a baby incubator type setting...could be old...who knows..maybe he's selling them cheaper because they're not even ready yet kind of like a reservation...point is if I can get them relatively good shape they'll only get better in my care...and yes they are precious lives...not to be kicked to the curb because they aren't produced by the most "business" minded individual...I also adopt my dogs instead of buy them from breeders...same concept in my head...only in this hobby with these pets...everyone is so concerned about money and "business" and being Donald Trump's next Apprentice they forget why they do this...because we love the snakes...not the breeders....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

That's an interesting idea ... so is a "respiratory infection" price ok too? How about a "malnourished" price? At what point does disrespecting the animals to the point where a "deal" can justify giving sub standard care of a living creature that relies on it's keeper for health and happyness become acceptable?

These are precious lives that deserve better than to be "dealt cheap" ... not some old pickup truck that the seller is knocking $100 bucks off of cause it needs a wash and some armor all.

-adam

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Wow, yeah when you look at it like that it's not that great a deal huh? The "quick sale" mentality, where the animals come second to the money is just wrong! It just shows that someone really does not care about the animals that are in their posession even if it is only for a short time. IDK Adam says it best (as always :D) but that's my :2cent:for what it's worth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

Call me charitatble, but those snakes did nothing wrong and might need a good new home....if I can get a nice snake for a good price..kill me but I'd do it...And those snakes don't look malnourished...and to hint that they already have resp. infections is a little harsh...theres also alot more work that needs to be done besides looking at a picture and an ad...I always talk to breeders on the phone and get a feel for what they're like...maybe he's selling them cheap because nobody is buying them for the same price as the reputable breeders...and that pic does look like its in a baby incubator type setting...could be old...who knows..maybe he's selling them cheaper because they're not even ready yet kind of like a reservation...point is if I can get them relatively good shape they'll only get better in my care...and yes they are precious lives...not to be kicked to the curb because they aren't produced by the most "business" minded individual...I also adopt my dogs instead of buy them from breeders...same concept in my head...only in this hobby with these pets...everyone is so concerned about money and "business" and being Donald Trump's next Apprentice they forget why they do this...because we love the snakes...not the breeders....

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You completely missed the point of my response. I was not suggesting at all that those animals have respiratory infection, are malnourished, or have anything at all wrong with them other than being in a cage that should have been cleaned as soon as it was opened and not after the picture, the next day, the next week etc ... I never brought up anything at all about what those animals are being sold for either ... you did.

My point was that the mentality of saying it's ok for a snake to be in a dirty cage because it's being sold for a "dirty cage price" is disrespectful to those animals. They didn't ask to be in a dirty cage ... they are living creatures and deserve better.

I don't know who the seller is, I don't even remember what the snakes are being sold for, and you know what ... I don't care. But for someone to say that it's acceptable to let animals sit in a dirty cage (even for only 2 seconds) so that a picture can be taken is unbelievable in my opinion.

Don't the snakes deserved to be cleaned first and foremost? Then every thing else taken care of?

If you personally want to rescue animals, get dogs form a kennel, buy from unknown hobbyists or whatever ... good for you ... I have no problem with that ... I'm not telling anyone not to buy from this seller either ... that's NOT MY POINT. But excusing people who believe that it's ok to those animals sit in a dirty cage (even if it's just for a little bit) while they take a picture or do whatever is harming those animals that you care so much about. Think about it. Why not expect more from people ... if you care so much about the animals? Why not ask them to clean a cage before pics are taken? What's the harm?

I'm expressing my belief that those animals deserve to be cleaned at least before the picture is taken ... as keepers, we OWE THEM AT LEAST THAT MUCH.

Or maybe my expectations for people that care for animals is just too high? I sincerely hope that no one that loves animals really feels that way. :(

-adam

First of all, I don't think $600 for an 08 male Albino with a Het Female (correct me if I am wrong, but someone mentioned that was what was actually being offered-a pair of snakes) is not such an awesome deal.

Second of all, not only would it be in my worst interest to purchase a questionably healthy animal (questionable because it is apparently kept in a dirty tank from what the picture tells me), it would also be telling breeders that have substandard husbandry prices that it is ok to continue to do this because someone will come along and buy their snakes.

Third of all, I think it is a wonderful thing to rescue animals. I have adopted dogs, cats, rabbits, lizards, etc. But I have either found them homeless & taken them in, or I have adopted them from an organization that charged a nominal fee for the care of the animal. I would not purchase an animal in poor conditions from a for-profit breeder. I am very compassionate, but this would just be reinforcing less than optimal breeding environments.

Again, this is my opinion. I am not saying that everyone needs to think the same way that I do. However, we as consumers (& breeders, etc.) have the power to require that the animals we acquire be in the best of health (which requires good husbandry practices).

Agree to disagree then...but you're not going to adopt albino ball pythons...this is the closest thing to helping one out in need anyone will ever get....otherwise if he is a shabby breeder theyre going to sit there in poor condition for the rest of their lives...poor snakes...:weirdface

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

Agree to disagree then...but you're not going to adopt albino ball pythons...this is the closest thing to helping one out in need anyone will ever get....otherwise if he is a shabby breeder theyre going to sit there in poor condition for the rest of their lives...poor snakes...:weirdface

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Maybe the question needs to be adjusted a bit.

Rather than "Are these snakes worth it?".....because the snakes are worth whatever you're willing to pay for them...their value is defined solely between the seller and the buyer.

A better question to define the discussion thus far would be "What is the risk to buy from someone who would use this kind of picture to promote his business and is it worth that risk?" The answer to that question will differ between many people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

Agree to disagree then...but you're not going to adopt albino ball pythons...this is the closest thing to helping one out in need anyone will ever get....otherwise if he is a shabby breeder theyre going to sit there in poor condition for the rest of their lives...poor snakes...:weirdface

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By "rescuing" (buying) these snakes, in those conditions, you are telling that person that it's ok to keep them in those conditions, it means little to you, and you're putting money in their pocket to encourage them to do it again. Afterall, you didn't set a higher standard for that seller.

"Hey, people will buy from me, no matter what conditions I keep them in, I have no incentive to improve - I'll just churn out more, so another person can "rescue" them from me (for $600)." :rolleyes:

I just find it funny that everyone cares alot more about where their snakes come from then where they sell their offspring...I just hope you all look into and scrutinize potential buyers the way you do potential sellers....These people wouldn't have the morphs if the responsible breeders were responsible with their offspring in the first place...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

Agree to disagree then...but you're not going to adopt albino ball pythons...this is the closest thing to helping one out in need anyone will ever get....otherwise if he is a shabby breeder theyre going to sit there in poor condition for the rest of their lives...poor snakes...:weirdface

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What do you think he's going to do with the money paid for the snakes? .... In my experience in this biz, theres a good chance the he's going to buy more snakes and most likely keep them in the same condition ... are you going to buy them all? ... How about his breeders, are you going to buy them too? And what about the next guy that does it ... are you going to rescue all of his "poor snakes" by buying them?

Since it's not realistic for you to personally go out and buy (aka "rescue") every single "poor snake" that is kept in less then stellar conditions, why not take a more logical route. Why not be outspoken against the practice. Why not make as big of a stink as you can to let people know that it's not acceptable to treat animals that way? Why not hold people that chose to profit from the animal trade to the highest possible standard by not supporting anyone that doesn't treat the animals in their charges with respect. I have a feeling that if more people put their foot down and said "no more" instead of looking the other way or making excuses, there would be a whole heck of a lot less "poor snakes" to buy (aka "rescue") from "shabby breeders" (your words, not mine).

Just some food for thought.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

I just find it funny that everyone cares alot more about where their snakes come from then where they sell their offspring...I just hope you all look into and scrutinize potential buyers the way you do potential sellers....These people wouldn't have the morphs if the responsible breeders were responsible with their offspring in the first place...

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So now it's your contention that it's the breeders fault that the offspring of the snakes that they sold to someone are left to sit in their own urine for a photo shoot?

-adam

I'm going to play devils advocate here for just a minute. Look at these pictures and tell me how clean these cages are and if you'd buy from them:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1106_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1130_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1138_.jpg

I know that on any given day at any given time cages can look like crap. The difference is that priorities are different for different people. If one of my cages needs to be cleaned, then that's the priority. If i'm getting ready for work or to go out or go to bed then none of that happens until the cage is cleaned. The last thing on my mind would be to take pictures. I certainly would not send that pic out with the intention of selling them.
I feel a responsibility to the animals, and even to the breeder to take good care of them. I know that when Adam sells a snake that he wants it to go to a good home, but the breeder is in no way responsible for the later actions of the buyer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

I'm going to play devils advocate here for just a minute. Look at these pictures and tell me how clean these cages are and if you'd buy from them:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1106_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1130_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1138_.jpg

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I love a good devils advocate! ;) :sweeet:

To answer your question, it depends ... are those animals being sold at "dirty cage prices"? cause if they are ... boy oh boy, I might just be tempted! :rofl:

Ya know, for the life of me, I can't figure out a way to wiggle out of this sticky wicket with grace ... makes me want to go downstairs and take some pictures of dirty cages and post them up :sweeet: ... Do I wish every breeder/keeper (including myself) always had clean cages ... absolutely ... Do I realize the impossibility of that wish? ... absolutely ... But, with all of the animals that I've bought and all the money I've spent, I can say without a doubt, that not a single one was chosen from a picture of the animal in a dirty cage or picked out of a dirty tub at a breeders facility. Does that make it better? Maybe, maybe not. But if I personally have to start somewhere, for me, holding the presentation of a seller (ANY SELLER) that is presenting an animal for sale to the public to a little bit of a higher standard ain't a bad place. Once I climb that Everest, I'll move on to the next one.

How was that for a mega weaselly answer? :rolleye2:

And with that, I'll return to my dream world of clean cages and cloacas hand wiped after every BM before I manage to shove my foot ever further into my mouth. ;)

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I love a good devils advocate! ;) :sweeet:

To answer your question, it depends ... are those animals being sold at "dirty cage prices"? cause if they are ... boy oh boy, I might just be tempted! :rofl:

Ya know, for the life of me, I can't figure out a way to wiggle out of this sticky wicket with grace ... makes me want to go downstairs and take some pictures of dirty cages and post them up :sweeet: ... Do I wish every breeder/keeper (including myself) always had clean cages ... absolutely ... Do I realize the impossibility of that wish? ... absolutely ... But, with all of the animals that I've bought and all the money I've spent, I can say without a doubt, that not a single one was chosen from a picture of the animal in a dirty cage or picked out of a dirty tub at a breeders facility. Does that make it better? Maybe, maybe not. But if I personally have to start somewhere, for me, holding the presentation of a seller (ANY SELLER) that is presenting an animal for sale to the public to a little bit of a higher standard ain't a bad place. Once I climb that Everest, I'll move on to the next one.

How was that for a mega weaselly answer? :rolleye2:

And with that, I'll return to my dream world of clean cages and cloacas hand wiped after every BM before I manage to shove my foot ever further into my mouth. ;)

-adam

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Way to wiggle, bro! LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

Way to wiggle, bro! LOL

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Yeah ... sometimes my big mouth writes checks my ass can't cash ... well, maybe more than sometimes.

[repeats to self] silence is golden ... silence is golden

:)

-adam

Actually thats not what I said...What I did say is that alll the big time breeders will advise you to scrutinize people to the fullest before buying a ball python, but they do no research when selling their valuable morph to someone...In general, any old joe with the money to buy a snake can...Point being the seller wouldn't have the snakes to breed if people were more careful with their snake lines (overbreeding, irresponsible selling etc) and we wouldn't be in this mess...every breeder knows their snakes are going to bred 90% of the time, but no blame falls on them for irresponsible selling, but for anyone to buy "any old joe's" snake now that the breeder got his money, is highly advised against by....wait for it...the big breeder...and the poor snakes are still stuck sleeping in urine with no chance of a better home...and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until I speak to them and see where their heads at...like I said before...this picture alone is not enough for me to completely dismiss the seller or the snakes...whats the risk $600 and a $300 trip to the vet...whats the reward...a great pet...hopefully a great breeder...and from what I see...a pretty nice high contrast albino project for a decent price if that's what you're looking for...


Tosha,
Those cages are definietly alot worse than the one we're talking about...looks like month old newspaper...the picture thats up looks like it could be pee from that day, last night whatever..but I'm sure those pics are from someone reputable that will have no problem selling their snake bc everyone will give them the benefit of the doubt because it's a "big breeder." But to answer your question I'd need to know the price, where I found them, any references, and speak to the seller on the phone...thats a big deal for me....but if someone wants to sell me a bumblebee or pied half price and the pic is in one of those cages...sue me but I'd think about it and go through the motions as I discussed above...

Sincerely,
the other devils advocate :halohorn:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Yeah ... sometimes my big mouth writes checks my ass can't cash ... well, maybe more than sometimes.

[repeats to self] silence is golden ... silence is golden

:)

-adam

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After reading through this entire thread,I think your ass is doing a damn good job at cashing checks. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

alll the big time breeders will advise you to scrutinize people to the fullest before buying a ball python, but they do no research when selling their valuable morph to someone

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Who specifically do you mean when you talk about big breeders not researching who they sell to? Do you seriously mean "ALL" of them?

And ... how do you know that they don't?

Are you saying that there's a question that the big breeders should be asking before they sell a snake to let them know if one day down the road the buyer is going to produce offspring and keep them in dirty cages? If you are, please share it ... I'd love to know what that question would be? And also if you're suggesting that "big breeders" can start asking this question that you have in mind and there would magically never again be a snake posted for sale in a picture of a dirty cage, I think it's super important that you share it ... we can solve this all right here and now.

Sure sounds to me like you're blaming the breeders. Certainly doesn't sound like you think it's the guy that owns the snakes fault that he didn't take the time to clean the cage before the picture was taken.

I never thought I'd get such strong opposition for expecting people to clean a cage out before taking a picture of an animal for sale. Unreal.

-adam

I don't for the life of me know how someone could hold the breeder responsible for what a buyer does later down the road. Most people would asume that anyone willing to shell out Albino $$ for a snake would have a clue what the snake requires. One of those requirements is to keep a clean cage. Call me crazy, but that seems pretty simple to me.

Even the big dog breeders who spay/neuter all pets before homing, and have strict rules, regulations and contracts for adopters of unaltered animals, still occasionally end up with their lines being used by yucky breeders. No matter what you do, you cannot guarantee the lives of your animals once they leave your home.

Interesting debate going on in here... but I believe it comes down to this:

On the internet, pictures and words are the ONLY means of representing ourselves and our animals.
Regardless of the fact that changing paper towels in a cage takes 2 minutes or less, and should be done regularly for the health of snakes and humans alike, the fact that someone is too rushed, busy, lazy, whatever to take those minutes and clean the cage before taking pictures (which takes the same amount of time)... pictures that will represent his animals and himself... well, that speaks volumes. We don't know if they are the RIGHT volumes, but it's the impression we get from what we see.

Bottom line: Many of us forget to clean every once in a while for one reason or another, and that's alright as long as we get it done ASAP. But when taking pictures for a sale, there is no excuse to have animals pictured in a dirty cage.

i agree very much. well lets start off by saying these snakes are local and i found them posted on craigslist.com. now as i have visited other forums i have noticed the offering of these snakes on multiple forums also and is posting as 1 albino and 1 het female. im trying to contact the seller to get more info on the snakes but no luck yet. the reason i posted this as are they worth the price is because even though i love reptiles and dont know much about ball pythons since i have never owned one but have heard good things about there temperments i just didnt want to pay that much money if i can but them cheaper at a pet store or something. basically meaning i dont want to be gouged or over priced on something.

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

Actually thats not what I said...What I did say is that alll the big time breeders will advise you to scrutinize people to the fullest before buying a ball python, but they do no research when selling their valuable morph to someone...In general, any old joe with the money to buy a snake can...Point being the seller wouldn't have the snakes to breed if people were more careful with their snake lines (overbreeding, irresponsible selling etc) and we wouldn't be in this mess...every breeder knows their snakes are going to bred 90% of the time, but no blame falls on them for irresponsible selling, but for anyone to buy "any old joe's" snake now that the breeder got his money, is highly advised against by....wait for it...the big breeder...and the poor snakes are still stuck sleeping in urine with no chance of a better home...and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until I speak to them and see where their heads at...like I said before...this picture alone is not enough for me to completely dismiss the seller or the snakes...whats the risk $600 and a $300 trip to the vet...whats the reward...a great pet...hopefully a great breeder...and from what I see...a pretty nice high contrast albino project for a decent price if that's what you're looking for...

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Big breeders do not have the time to scrutinize every email they get about a sale.... only in a perfect non realistic world would that happen.

Irresponsible selling? The reason no blame falls on sellers is because what some one else does with their animal/s once they have them is their business.... it's out of the hands of the seller.

When a seller sends out an animal/s it is done so in good faith that the new owner will do the right thing. If the new owner breaks laws, fails to care for the animal/s it is their choice to do so and the consequences lay squarely on the owner, NOT the seller!

The reason any old joe can buy animal is simple, we live in a free country and don't need someone's permission.

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Originally Posted by xanaxez

i agree very much. well lets start off by saying these snakes are local and i found them posted on craigslist.com. now as i have visited other forums i have noticed the offering of these snakes on multiple forums also and is posting as 1 albino and 1 het female. im trying to contact the seller to get more info on the snakes but no luck yet. the reason i posted this as are they worth the price is because even though i love reptiles and dont know much about ball pythons since i have never owned one but have heard good things about there temperments i just didnt want to pay that much money if i can but them cheaper at a pet store or something. basically meaning i dont want to be gouged or over priced on something.

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I have found several legitimate postings on CL for animals that need to be rehomed, but more often it's free advertising for animal breeders and brokers.

I can tell you that for around that price, you can get a healthy, nice BP (maybe even an albino/het pair) from any of the good breeders (8Ball, Heather's Herps, BHB, etc.). Check out their websites, and check Faunaclassifieds.com under the BOI section before you purchase from anyone. You can find feedback from buyers there.

Hope this helps!

PS Yes, Ball Pythons are great!

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

Even the big dog breeders who spay/neuter all pets before homing, and have strict rules, regulations and contracts for adopters of unaltered animals, still occasionally end up with their lines being used by yucky breeders. No matter what you do, you cannot guarantee the lives of your animals once they leave your home.

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EXACTLY!!!!!!, but they make the effort to write the contracts and attempt to protect their lines..and they will tell a family or person looking to buy their puppies that they cannot if they do not think the person is right for the dog, They'll choose to turn down $$$ in order to make sure each of their puppies goes to a GOOD HOME, not just one with "albino" money...and yes I do think that if people didn't mass produce these things there would be less of them in dirty cages...do you really need hundreds of albinos, pieds, whatever...I doubt it but you want the $$$...so yes big breeders share some of the responsibility...and no it's not ONE question. THAT is your problem...It wouldn't be an easy fix and so you wouldn't do it and would require a little more work on the side of the breeder, which snake breeders aren't willing to do...It would have to be a line of questions, poss a phone or in person interview, a reference or two god forbid from a vet saying this person takes good care of his current and past animals....No you can not guarantee the lives once they leave your home, but you don't have to sell them to the old biker guy with a beard who clearly has no clue what he's doing...but you want his $$ and you'll worry about what he does with his snake later..Somebody had the first pieds, albinos, mojave, whatever and they sold it to someone who mass produced them and now the price dropped, there all over, and in the hands of irresponsible breeders..I remember as a kid hearing how rare and expensive the albino ball pythons were.Talk about taking advantage of a group of animals..People must have bought multiple houses off those things...And when you make that kind of money on something it's in your best interest as well as that of the entire bp species to be very selective picking sellers with rare animals..And don't yoiu think it's respectful of the species to find GOOD homes, not just homes with "albino" money....YES I think it's about time big breeders stop pointing fingers unless its at each other and start accepting that the reason there are so many BP's in bad conditions is bc THEY mass produced them...I know for a fact that no big breeders look into where their snakes are going in any kind of real way...Someone emails them, paypals them, and they send the snake...:colbert:

Sputnik,
Make all the excuses for them that you want...They have time to scrutinize their perspective buyers...and if they don't then they need to rethink their business plan. You dont see people with Best In Show Dogs asking how many females their dog can inseminate in one seasons to "maximize" their male hahha.. they protect their lines..The way the BP world is today it probably is unreasnable to ask them to look into all their buyers...but thats because as you all have shown, it's accpeptable to sell to any old joe. You're selling "in good faith" lol! Wake up...Thats called..."Im selling it and I don't want to be responsible for what happens once it leaves my hands"....And it is a free country and you have the RIGHT to sell/conduct business with whomever you choose to, but you also have the right to refuse to sell...remember those signs, no shirt, no shoes, no service...ya thats because as long as it's not based on race, religion, or gender you can refuse to sell your snakes to someone for whatever reason you want, especially if you think they will not be a good home for your snake...thats the true meaning of a free country..:salute:


I"M SORRY FOR EXPECTING MORE FROM THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF BP WORLD INSTEAD OF THOSE OUTSIDE THE GATES WAITING TO GET INTO BP WORLD!!!!
Very easy to point fingers and play the "well I didn't know he was an irresponsible breeder" game. Much harder to take responsibility for your actions and the sales you CHOSE to make.

And just for the record..I've never said it's ok to sell or leave animals in dirty cages...My cages are always clean in my house, but to say that the guy shouldn't go drive and check out a good deal he saw on craigslist is crazy for me..esp if he knows BP's and can pick out a good deal from a scam...Pictures and words are not all that we have..we have phones and refrerences!! these are soooo much better for picking out places to potentially get your snakes. Get them on the phone see how fast the answers come, does he studder, or do anything else that makes you think he's being less that tuthful..Then find a reference that you TRULY trust...If you can't...then don't buy...:cool:

What's your definition of mass producing? How many is mass producing? I've been to some big breeders. Besides a few clutches of any given morph, they didn't have HUNDREDS of a single morph produced, they had maybe 20 of each produced (and that was on the high end). They didn't have walls and walls of albinos or walls and walls of pastels or walls and walls of cinnies, etc.

Hell, the enchi that's in my avatar came from a big breeder - they had 10 enchis they produced that year. Ten of them - hardly mass producing them. I know there were 10, because I visited and spent time working in their facility for a week and hand picked this animal from their available enchi's.

That's not very massive in my book. Ball pythons don't breed like rabbits, or even puppies.

You seem to have a big grudge against big breeders - why is this? How many do you personally know well enough, as well as their business practices so intimately, to make such broad sweeping generalizations against them?

Why ARE you so angry at them?