Possible lameness

Just a quick note while I gather my thoughts. My latest litter of ASF's have confused me for a little while. They are approximately 5-6 weeks of age, and today I have finally confirmed my suspicions.

It appears at least 3 of my asf's have a lameness about them, they walk irregularly. I could never completely decide what was going on, because they do walk, just awkwardly that tricks the eye into thinking its a shy crawl/walk, but today I watched one of my males on a wheel and he definitely does not walk straight.

The best way I can describe it right now is they extend their legs at the hip joint almost straight out sideways instead of underneath them to walk. It is only observable in their back legs, their front ones are perfectly fine.

So far it appears to mostly be the females, since I have only observed it in their tank. There happens to be one male in the same tank, and he also appears to have this deformity.

I dont know if they all happen to have broken limbs, or if it is genetic in nature, but it has certainly stunted their growth. Each one of the lame asf's is smaller then their litter mates.


I'll attempt to take a video if I can, I am cleaning their tank tonight so hopefully I will remember to record how they walk.


Any thoughts?

I have just looked at my other two tubs with this same litter, and there is at least one male in each that is lame as well, and also smaller than the rest of his brothers.

i just cleaned bins today and i don't think i see any lame ones in ours but usually we do feed off the smaller ones aka runts early to allow the bigger stronger ones to survive. If you are possibly looking for some new blood for yours we are in michigan and i just counted 72 weaned babies this afternoon from five groups.

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Originally Posted by shadi11

i just cleaned bins today and i don't think i see any lame ones in ours but usually we do feed off the smaller ones aka runts early to allow the bigger stronger ones to survive. If you are possibly looking for some new blood for yours we are in michigan and i just counted 72 weaned babies this afternoon from five groups.

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Well, thats something I should explain.

This litter was from a pairing of 1.3 litter mates. They were from an outcrossed pairing of unrelated parents from 2 different lines.

I've discussed it further with one person on ASFrats.info, and we both sort of think it may be a bad pregnancy.

This litter may possibly be from two mothers from the group. I was originally going to sell them or feed them off because as far as I could tell only one female had a litter, and it just wasnt good production for me to keep them.

But, it is possible that one other female gave birth to a very small litter, and maybe she had a rough pregnancy. Only one female of the 3 ever looked pregnant.

My count so far is 6 rats have this walking disorder, and they are all smaller than the others. I've taken a video and I'm trying to find a way to upload high quality so I can post it.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

This litter was from a pairing of 1.3 litter mates. They were from an outcrossed pairing of unrelated parents from 2 different lines.

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Sorry, should have read...

This litter was from a 1.3 of litter mates (brother bred to sisters), and their parents are unrelated, from two different lines.

i see well we try not to put brother and sister together as im sure you don't try to either. But it is really hard for use to outcross our rats anymore due to the fact that we have run out of breeders to buy from in the taylor show.

Pretty interesting stuff connie...

Shadi, there is nothing wrong with putting siblings together as a breeding group as long is you don't do it many times in a row. Many of us make our best breeding groups out of sibling pairings.

Connie, do you think it is possible that the parents / grandparents / and so on may have had it and you just didn't identify it???

I guess the easiest way to see if it is genetic or a bad pregnancy is to see if the next round of babies also have it.

I have never seen anything like you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by shadi11

i see well we try not to put brother and sister together as im sure you don't try to either. But it is really hard for use to outcross our rats anymore due to the fact that we have run out of breeders to buy from in the taylor show.

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Sounds like a few of us need to meet at the Taylor show and trade ASF's to freshen up all our genetic lines. :)

I am aware that breeding siblings together is considered acceptable practice and to get some of our solid color asf's we have combined siblings together. We do however try to keep our stock fresh because we have seen what happens to over inbreed babies, they don't tend to be as large as adults and they loose their bulging eyes and start looking way to much like mice. i saw some soft furs that were supposedly adults and they looked like large mice. I was told they were retired breeders. She told me she gets around 10 babies at a time i tend to get 17+ babies. So that is what i was referring to.

Tried to edit and add this but it wouldnt work
I got mine from 4 different lines. The most I have bred back is a set of siblings normally.. I also refresh my stock when I notice the size are smaller and things like that... I am usually at the taylor show every month although my soft furs sell out right away so if you want some let me know and I will set them aside. I will not be there this comming month though. We choose to go to Tinley instead

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Connie, do you think it is possible that the parents / grandparents / and so on may have had it and you just didn't identify it???

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No, I dont think so. The grandparents (the original outcrossing) are perfectly fine. I've spent a lot of time with the parents too, and the lameness (now that I've seen it) is VERY obvious, they have never shown any bit of it.

I dont think its possible that they have it, but it could definitely be a genetic thing, but with this litter the females are nursing now, we will see how they are when they wean in a few weeks.

I would personally cull the ones with the problems unless you are able to trace it back the linage 100% and check for further deformities from the original parents. Also is it possible it could be something like an inner ear infection that is causing the imbalance problems?

We try to add in new blood at least 2-3 times per year and seems to help enough to keep them from becoming to inbreed at least to the point of undersized babies, litters or deformities.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Chandler reptiles

I would personally cull the ones with the problems unless you are able to trace it back the linage 100% and check for further deformities from the original parents. Also is it possible it could be something like an inner ear infection that is causing the imbalance problems?

We try to add in new blood at least 2-3 times per year and seems to help enough to keep them from becoming to inbreed at least to the point of undersized babies, litters or deformities.

Good luck.

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Once you see the video, it's very clear it is not a balance problem. More of weak muscles, or motor skills problem.

This is only the second generation from an original outcrossed pairing. I do not think this is the product of a mutation of any sort.

They are feeders anyways, one way or another the original group will be fed off (they were already on that list).

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Once you see the video, it's very clear it is not a balance problem. More of weak muscles, or motor skills problem.

This is only the second generation from an original outcrossed pairing. I do not think this is the product of a mutation of any sort.

They are feeders anyways, one way or another the original group will be fed off (they were already on that list).

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Good chance it is just a litter thing then.

http://www.viddyou.com/viddstream?videoid=42108

I have to admit, they are pretty cute to watch. You feel so sorry for them you love em. :oops:

More handicapped rats today. 3 more from a different breeding group. So far the common denominator is the original father rat of both of these groups.

Will have to do more breeding to know for sure.