Ok, I need to re-do my rat setup, need advice

Alright, here's the deal, the rat set up I have now, is great and all, works fine, I'm just tired of filling water bottles, and having 1.5 rats in each tub, more fights, and possibly trampled, fought over babies. I want to build a new rack, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it. I don't really know what I want. I can't decide whether or not to go with like 0.1 in each tub to raise their litter on their own, and do I want to rotate males or leave 1.0 in at all times. And finally, what do I want to do for grow out tubs. I want them to be part of the rack (or have a separate grow rack).

Sorry for the rant, but in short, what I'm asking is, what is your breeding recipe? Like what sorts of ratio's do you do and tub sizes and all that stuff.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, here is my current rat set up, nine 54q sterilite tubs with 200ml water bottles, 1/2" hardware cloth on the top and a 1/2" drop down feeding hopper. Each tub is 1.5.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...m/IMG_0036.jpg

And Here's my grow out tank.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...m/IMG_0037.jpg

When I bred rats before, I would occasionally use a wet nurse rat with new momma rats. However, for the most part, females should be separated, as some will actually fight over babies and try to kidnap other babies and can end up tearing babies in pieces or fatally injuring them.

The setup looks good, the main problem is the numbers. With that many girls in each tub and no separation for births, of course you have fights and trampled little ones.

I would try to keep it at 1.3, or separate the moms when they have their litters. Reintroducing rats is a LOT easier than mice once the group is established.

As for the rack, there are plenty of folks around here who have built their own, so I'm sure they'll chime in. :D

I use the extra large vanness tubs for a nursing rack, and I use the medium sized concrete tubs as breeder holding bins.

I would go with the concrete tub style rack you can find a DIY easily.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...28-07_1301.jpg
that is not my rack but you get the idea..
The tubs are 28x20x6 and I just figured out where to get them in canada, I have been looking for months.. Here ya go:
http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/...tc_40l_28x20x6

you may have to have them order them for you but they dont charge extra and have them to you in under a week. I have also tried kitty litter pans with success.

while your at it dont forget the watering system. Brian at grandview rabbitry is the best source I can find in canada.
http://www.grandviewrabbitry.com/wateringequipment.html

I do 1.3 in those tubs. Depending on your males you can keep them in with the moms but if they are aggressive I pull them.

hope those links help you out.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Somed00d

I would go with the concrete tub style rack you can find a DIY easily.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...28-07_1301.jpg
that is not my rack but you get the idea..
The tubs are 28x20x6 and I just figured out where to get them in canada, I have been looking for months.. Here ya go:
http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/...tc_40l_28x20x6

you may have to have them order them for you but they dont charge extra and have them to you in under a week. I have also tried kitty litter pans with success.

while your at it dont forget the watering system. Brian at grandview rabbitry is the best source I can find in canada.
http://www.grandviewrabbitry.com/wateringequipment.html

I do 1.3 in those tubs. Depending on your males you can keep them in with the moms but if they are aggressive I pull them.

hope those links help you out.

Good luck!

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Wow man, I have always wanted to do that style but could never find the tubs, THANK YOU!

Still looking for more ideas though folks!

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Wow man, I have always wanted to do that style but could never find the tubs, THANK YOU!

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No problem! I have looked everywhere for these type of tubs and even contacted the manufacturer for retailers then I stumbled upon a vague post on another forum that lead me to homehardware!!

Good luck on whatever you end up building. You will fall in love with racks immediately. They are so easy to maintain compared to what you have now and the watering system makes life so easy. 1 Small tip, if you do go with the watering system (it sounds like you will) add a tiny bit of bleach about 1 cap full for a 5 gallon bucket to your water supply to keep everything clean. I didn't figure that out until after I had to clean the slimy water lines and plugged up valves.


Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Somed00d

No problem! I have looked everywhere for these type of tubs and even contacted the manufacturer for retailers then I stumbled upon a vague post on another forum that lead me to homehardware!!

Good luck on whatever you end up building. You will fall in love with racks immediately. They are so easy to maintain compared to what you have now and the watering system makes life so easy. 1 Small tip, if you do go with the watering system (it sounds like you will) add a tiny bit of bleach about 1 cap full for a 5 gallon bucket to your water supply to keep everything clean. I didn't figure that out until after I had to clean the slimy water lines and plugged up valves.


Richard

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Really? That won't harm the rats at all?

Ralph Davis uses bleach too, check out his youtube videos. I use 1.3 groups for communal breeding in those cement tubs. I only use this setup sparingly since a lot of groups don't mesh.

I prefer to separate pregnant moms. I use the cement tubs as their breeding tubs. I place three males and up ten females in a tub. I will probably get flamed for this but hear me out. The males have to grow up together. If you throw in three adult males that don't know each other they may kill each other. I like this method because as soon as a female rat is receptive one of the three males will knock her up. If you use one male I feel you are more likely to run into problems. Female rats are funny. They will not breed if they don't like a certain male. Just watch Ralph Davis' videos . He rotates his females through the males tubs every week for this very reason. If you use three males no rotation is necessary and you need less tubs for breeding. For the females I place them in some old school Bush tubs that are about 15 inches by 15 inches. I usually put one or two females in each tub to give birth and wean. Sometimes I place three females in a tub if I start to run out of space or if the weather is really cold. I prefer to place females together that came from the same breeding tub. I feel they are more accustomed to one another and less likely to fight over babies.

David

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Originally Posted by dacalio

Ralph Davis uses bleach too, check out his youtube videos. I use 1.3 groups for communal breeding in those cement tubs. I only use this setup sparingly since a lot of groups don't mesh.

I prefer to separate pregnant moms. I use the cement tubs as their breeding tubs. I place three males and up ten females in a tub. I will probably get flamed for this but hear me out. The males have to grow up together. If you throw in three adult males that don't know each other they may kill each other. I like this method because as soon as a female rat is receptive one of the three males will knock her up. If you use one male I feel you are more likely to run into problems. Female rats are funny. They will not breed if they don't like a certain male. Just watch Ralph Davis' videos . He rotates his females through the males tubs every week for this very reason. If you use three males no rotation is necessary and you need less tubs for breeding. For the females I place them in some old school Bush tubs that are about 15 inches by 15 inches. I usually put one or two females in each tub to give birth and wean. Sometimes I place three females in a tub if I start to run out of space or if the weather is really cold. I prefer to place females together that came from the same breeding tub. I feel they are more accustomed to one another and less likely to fight over babies.

David

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David, it's been my observation that placing 3 males in with any number of females is more likely to cause fights and death. All of my males are known to each other and get along. However when removing a male from females, he is given a night to himself to work that breeding frenzy out before he returns to the other males to prevent fighting by him having the smell of females on him.

What could possibly be happening in your tubs is a free for all donkey kong style, and the female is being bombarded by males trying to get the goods. While she is in heat, she will have several males attempt to breed with her all at once. However, usually in the wild, females have their own hide to retreat to, and can choose when to be present, in a tub she does not have that option.

This is a pretty stressful environment and is usually only present when colony population is nearing the maximum capacity and pretty much ready to explode.

When populations are low to moderate, the males will watch over a group of females, and will fight with other males to the death if they have to, to protect the females and young.

I keep my males separate when breeding, just to avoid the problems, eventually you will have a fight and a very badly injured or dead male.

Ralph's method is different and I think a lot safer. I like to switch up males and females when I think about it. It's not on my top priority, but it does give the males a bunch of new females to get excited about and more likely to impregnate.

Females aren't usually so picky that they will always refuse a particular male. If they are so inclined to refuse a male for a few weeks, it's always good to give them a boost by switching it up.

Some males just cant get it done, and sometimes, there are other reasons for lack of pregnancies like health conditions. ;)

Used to use this for breeding and birthing housing 2 female/tub and having the male rotating between the tubs

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...rs/RatRack.jpg

Now I use it for breeding purposes only housing 1.4 in each tubs, and I use this as maternity rack (housing 1 pregnant female / tub)

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...rthingRack.jpg

Not seen on those pics but my racks have watering system now.

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Originally Posted by dacalio

Ralph Davis uses bleach too

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I like to think I've seen all Ralphs videos at least 10 times each, but can you point me to the video where he says he uses bleach?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Used to use this for breeding and birthing housing 2 female/tub and having the male rotating between the tubs

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...rs/RatRack.jpg

Now I use it for breeding purposes only housing 1.4 in each tubs, and I use this as maternity rack (housing 1 pregnant female / tub)

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...rthingRack.jpg

Not seen on those pics but my racks have watering system now.

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When you doing a pdf on that birthing rack hint hint :taz::)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

David, it's been my observation that placing 3 males in with any number of females is more likely to cause fights and death. All of my males are known to each other and get along. However when removing a male from females, he is given a night to himself to work that breeding frenzy out before he returns to the other males to prevent fighting by him having the smell of females on him.

What could possibly be happening in your tubs is a free for all donkey kong style, and the female is being bombarded by males trying to get the goods. While she is in heat, she will have several males attempt to breed with her all at once. However, usually in the wild, females have their own hide to retreat to, and can choose when to be present, in a tub she does not have that option.

This is a pretty stressful environment and is usually only present when colony population is nearing the maximum capacity and pretty much ready to explode.

When populations are low to moderate, the males will watch over a group of females, and will fight with other males to the death if they have to, to protect the females and young.

I keep my males separate when breeding, just to avoid the problems, eventually you will have a fight and a very badly injured or dead male.

Ralph's method is different and I think a lot safer. I like to switch up males and females when I think about it. It's not on my top priority, but it does give the males a bunch of new females to get excited about and more likely to impregnate.

Females aren't usually so picky that they will always refuse a particular male. If they are so inclined to refuse a male for a few weeks, it's always good to give them a boost by switching it up.

Some males just cant get it done, and sometimes, there are other reasons for lack of pregnancies like health conditions. ;)

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You say all this with such certainty but I doubt you have tried exactly what I do. Th male groups that I set up are never seperated. I think that's why you may have experienced fighting. As I stated earlier the males must grow up together in order for this to work. I have tried to introduce a sibling to the males back into the breeding groups and major fighting occurred. Even though the other males knew him he was "out of the loop" and all three ganged up on him. I currently have 6 groups set up with these "triads" and have had no problems fighting. I have sucessfully used this method on and off for about 10 years.

My speed of conception is increased dramatically with this method. If I use one male it may be a month before all of the females in a group become pregnant. With this triad method births are spaced a week apart for every female.

You are probably right about the females not being the picky ones. The males inability or incompetance whatever it may be is probably the reason female rats may take a long time to become pregnant. If the females are as receptive to breeding as you say they are I don't see how this "free for all" is as bad as you think it is. My females are not abused any more in this setup versus a lone male. All male rats are somewhat aggressive breeders. None of my females sustained any injuries with this method. As far as this being stressfull I just don't see that. You must remember the males have more than one female to breed with. All the females in a given tub are on nearly the same cycle since they were pulled from their birthing tubs at the same time (I will probably get flamed for not resting females too, lol). Even if one female was in the tub, which I have done, and all three males were trying to breed her I don't see the problem. I put her in the tub to be bred and she is not being abused, so what's the problem?

I think its amusing that people are so quick to believe everything they read. I am constantly testing everything that is commonly accepted. I have introduced new female ASFs to established breeding groups. I have successfully kept a breeding group of 2.7 ASFs. I guess all I'm saying is don't believe everything you read and don't be afraid to experiment.

David

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Originally Posted by smilin-buddha

When you doing a pdf on that birthing rack hint hint :taz::)

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I know I need to work on it don't I? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dacalio

You say all this with such certainty but I doubt you have tried exactly what I do. Th male groups that I set up are never seperated. I think that's why you may have experienced fighting. As I stated earlier the males must grow up together in order for this to work. I have tried to introduce a sibling to the males back into the breeding groups and major fighting occurred. Even though the other males knew him he was "out of the loop" and all three ganged up on him. I currently have 6 groups set up with these "triads" and have had no problems fighting. I have sucessfully used this method on and off for about 10 years.

My speed of conception is increased dramatically with this method. If I use one male it may be a month before all of the females in a group become pregnant. With this triad method births are spaced a week apart for every female.

You are probably right about the females not being the picky ones. The males inability or incompetance whatever it may be is probably the reason female rats may take a long time to become pregnant. If the females are as receptive to breeding as you say they are I don't see how this "free for all" is as bad as you think it is. My females are not abused any more in this setup versus a lone male. All male rats are somewhat aggressive breeders. None of my females sustained any injuries with this method. As far as this being stressfull I just don't see that. You must remember the males have more than one female to breed with. All the females in a given tub are on nearly the same cycle since they were pulled from their birthing tubs at the same time (I will probably get flamed for not resting females too, lol). Even if one female was in the tub, which I have done, and all three males were trying to breed her I don't see the problem. I put her in the tub to be bred and she is not being abused, so what's the problem?

I think its amusing that people are so quick to believe everything they read. I am constantly testing everything that is commonly accepted. I have introduced new female ASFs to established breeding groups. I have successfully kept a breeding group of 2.7 ASFs. I guess all I'm saying is don't believe everything you read and don't be afraid to experiment.

David

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David all I said with certainty is the observation of my males.

Everything I have paraphrased was my attempt to understand what is happening in your tubs to be successful, I was not in any way telling you it doesn't work, but rather trying to apply what I have read in scientific articles to your current set up.

But yes, I do believe some day you'll have a fight and injuries, but its my personal belief. I'm glad your system is working out for you.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

David all I said with certainty is the observation of my males.

Everything I have paraphrased was my attempt to understand what is happening in your tubs to be successful, I was not in any way telling you it doesn't work, but rather trying to apply what I have read in scientific articles to your current set up.

But yes, I do believe some day you'll have a fight and injuries, but its my personal belief. I'm glad your system is working out for you.

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You have now stated twice (with certainty) that I will have fights in the future. Maybe in another decade this will come true.

What I'm saying is please don't assume what will happen when you have not tried it yourself. You may have tried something similar but from what you posted you have not attempted what I spelled out. I need not elaborate on my experiences any further since it has already been posted.

I think the males benefit from each other. They form strong bonds and groom each other. They sleep together and keep each other warm on cold days. I have even had a female drop a litter with the three males and have had no ill effects. I feel the males are so accustomed to one another they have no reason to fight. Think about it, if they were always housed together that's all they know.

Obviously I prefer this method. To each their own. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

David

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Originally Posted by dacalio

You have now stated twice (with certainty) that I will have fights in the future. Maybe in another decade this will come true.

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And I have stated (twice now) that I certainly believe it will happen someday. I can certainly believe whatever I want, and I would also like to point out, congrats! If never, then awesome, we have all learned something new! ;)

You certainly can!

I love threads like these. Don't take this the wrong way but I enjoy ummm ?debating? things like this.

David :)

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Originally Posted by dacalio

You certainly can!

I love threads like these. Don't take this the wrong way but I enjoy ummm ?debating? things like this.

David :)

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I love debate too! Who doesn't? :gj:

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

I like to think I've seen all Ralphs videos at least 10 times each, but can you point me to the video where he says he uses bleach?

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I am on my treo at the moment and youtube doesn't work well on it. Obviously its one of his rat barn videos. Its something he mentions briefly. I doubt I will watch all of his rat barn videos again to find out which one it is. Hopefully my memory serves me well and I didn't imagine this. Maybe someone can chime in and help you out.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Really? That won't harm the rats at all?

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I would not hesitate to drink the water myself..

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Originally Posted by dacalio

You certainly can!

I love threads like these. Don't take this the wrong way but I enjoy ummm ?debating? things like this.

David :)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I love debate too! Who doesn't? :gj:

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Know what I don't love? Hijacked threads.:P

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Know what I don't love? Hijacked threads.:P

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Sorry boo. ;)


I was just about to say, we use the bleach in our water too. I have even drank some before (I was siphoning water out and got a nice big mouth full. I'm apparently not a very good siphoner.)

It tasted completley normal, just like regular water. I did not hack, puke blood or die. It's so diluted you hardly notice. Who knows, maybe its not doing a darn thing, but I have also not had any gunk or blockages in my lines.

I believe we use 3 cc's per 5 gallons or something like that. Chris would know, he's taller than me and he has the honors.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Sorry boo. ;)


I was just about to say, we use the bleach in our water too. I have even drank some before (I was siphoning water out and got a nice big mouth full. I'm apparently not a very good siphoner.)

It tasted completley normal, just like regular water. I did not hack, puke blood or die. It's so diluted you hardly notice. Who knows, maybe its not doing a darn thing, but I have also not had any gunk or blockages in my lines.

I believe we use 3 cc's per 5 gallons or something like that. Chris would know, he's taller than me and he has the honors.

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lol, alrighty, I'll be sure to do the bleach once i get this sucker up and running!

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I know I need to work on it don't I? :D

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Well the others were such a helpful post. I can only imagine how good it will be:)

They use chlorine in drinking water for humans, so why not chlorine bleach for rats? I'm sure there is some long-term effect, however, scientists haven't discovered it just yet.

ok i know you already are on board with the bleach but to help ease your mind here is something in found:

[QUOTE]For emergency disinfection, the United States Environmental Protection Agency recommends the use of 2 drops of 5%ac household bleach per quart of water. If the treated water doesn't smell of bleach, 2 more drops are to be added./QUOTE]