Mongrel Ball

Check these out.

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This Hybrid is 2/3 Ball Python, 1/3 Borneo its the result of breeding a SuperBall to a Ball python.

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http://secure.onlineplugins.com/roussis/available.cfm

There are several on this page.

The don't have too much blood features but some them you can see certain aspects looking like a blood.

Eh. I'd rather have a normal ball.

looks like a pretty kool pattern

but if bred back into bps, the pattern and everything would fade out

Bleah.......

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Originally Posted by N4S

Check these out.



http://secure.onlineplugins.com/roussis/available.cfm

There are several on this page.

The don't have too much blood features but some them you can see certain aspects looking like a blood.

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tread carefully bud hybrids are frowned upon. Me on the other hand could care less whats its genetics are as long as its healthy. But as for this one in particular it face looks funny too me I like the pattern though .

That's interesting. Looks mostly like a ball except for the head.

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

tread carefully bud hybrids are frowned upon. Me on the other hand could care less whats its genetics are as long as its healthy. But as for this one in particular it face looks funny too me I like the pattern though .

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Ya I don't care.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Not saying you are coming at me. But I know what you mean.

O well.

I find them interesting.

i like the superball better, but they are kool Snakes...! crazy how u will never see them in the wild !

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Originally Posted by python.princess

Eh. I'd rather have a normal ball.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

tread carefully bud hybrids are frowned upon. Me on the other hand could care less whats its genetics are as long as its healthy. But as for this one in particular it face looks funny too me I like the pattern though .

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No idea why. It's not like ball pythons or blood pythons are endangered, there are plenty to go around. I see no bad in cross breeding. But that's just me. Though I haven't seen very many hybrids that I like. Except maybe the jungle retic.

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Originally Posted by RKO

Agreed

No idea why. It's not like ball pythons or blood pythons are endangered, there are plenty to go around. I see no bad in cross breeding. But that's just me. Though I haven't seen very many hybrids that I like. Except maybe the jungle retic.

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The only problem I'll ever have in hybridization is if it's painful or causes deformities (proven to).
Which then, I think it is just wrong to breed them at all if you know it's inhumane.

Anyway, I personally don't care for this ball.. some of them are unique, and others are normal looking. The unusual ones look like they could be weird normals too.. meh.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Ya I don't care.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Not saying you are coming at me. But I know what you mean.

O well.

I find them interesting.

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I doubt anyone would jump on you for posting a link. It's not like you came in saying "I love hybrid balls, we should all make hybrids all the time."

I wouldn't buy a hybrid simply cause I like my animals to be pure, species- and subspecies-wise.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

The only problem I'll ever have in hybridization is if it's painful or causes deformities (proven to).
Which then, I think it is just wrong to breed them at all if you know it's inhumane.

Anyway, I personally don't care for this ball.. some of them are unique, and others are normal looking. The unusual ones look like they could be weird normals too.. meh.

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Actually... If anything it would probably lessen the risk of deformity due to outcrossing a line as well as hybrid vigor. That being said, I don't really condone it, and if you don't know why, try to find a pure argus monitor, or a pure darwin albino carpet in the states. ;)

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

Actually... If anything it would probably lessen the risk of deformity due to outcrossing a line as well as hybrid vigor. That being said, I don't really condone it, and if you don't know why, try to find a pure argus monitor, or a pure darwin albino carpet in the states. ;)

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Aha, like I said.
I have no problem with it if it's a positive outcome!
But horses and zebras have only had one surviving baby for a reason.. the rest were severely deformed or stillborns. ;)

I prefer pure-breeds of animals, (excluding dogs, cause the work pure-breed doesn't even make sense considering DOG is a breed..)
but maybe in the future I would look into getting a neat hybrid, or getting one that is healthier and a stronger new species.

i hate the fact that it's got a morph name and then "ball" after it.... i know it has a description that says it's 2/3 this and 1/3 that but i'd hate for someone to not know and muddy things up.

The part I don't like is that as soon as the initial cross was made the decision was already made for future herpers that they can't be sure they have a ball python. Only the 2nd generation the records are getting muddied (aren't these 3/4 ball and 1/4 blood?) and some of them could pass for pure balls. I'm sure in another generation if not this some of them will be lost completely into the captive ball population. A few years down the road one of their more odd decedents could be picked out as a possible new ball morph and years might be wasted trying to bring it to market.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

The part I don't like is that as soon as the initial cross was made the decision was already made for future herpers that they can't be sure they have a ball python. Only the 2nd generation the records are getting muddied (aren't these 3/4 ball and 1/4 blood?) and some of them could pass for pure balls. I'm sure in another generation if not this some of them will be lost completely into the captive ball population. A few years down the road one of their more odd decedents could be picked out as a possible new ball morph and years might be wasted trying to bring it to market.

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That´s exactly what i was thinking. Back in the days it was the same story with Cornsnakes. Beginners easily buy a hybrid snake without knowing it and a couple of years later they breed their hybrid male to a pure Ball Python and as long as the hybrid male is involved, the line isnt pure.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

The part I don't like is that as soon as the initial cross was made the decision was already made for future herpers that they can't be sure they have a ball python. Only the 2nd generation the records are getting muddied (aren't these 3/4 ball and 1/4 blood?) and some of them could pass for pure balls. I'm sure in another generation if not this some of them will be lost completely into the captive ball population. A few years down the road one of their more odd decedents could be picked out as a possible new ball morph and years might be wasted trying to bring it to market.

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This is EXACTLY the reason I don't like hybrids. Many of those on that page could pass for normal ball pythons but will still carry many genes from their blood python side and eventually throw a monkey wrench into somebodies breeding project who thinks they are working with pure ball pythons.

Also, there is no such thing as a 3/4 ball or 2/3 ball python. The hybrid parent will have exactly 50% of it's genes from the ball python side, and exactly 50% of it's genes from the blood python side. But when the hybrid parent produces sex cells through the process of meiosis, it's a 50/50 shot to determine what side each gene gets it's genetic background from. Each sperm or egg cell produced can get anywhere between 0%-100% of it's genes from one side or the other. It is possible though extremely unlikely for one sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the ball python side, and it's equally possible for the next sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the blood python side. When you're talking about the millions of sperms being produced, each one carrying half the genetic material for millions of different genes you can have any percentage from either half of the hybrid that you can imagine. That's why 2nd generation hybrids are so extremely variable and unpredictable. And if you do get something interesting, it's very likely that it will NOT breed true.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This is EXACTLY the reason I don't like hybrids. Many of those on that page could pass for normal ball pythons but will still carry many genes from their blood python side and eventually throw a monkey wrench into somebodies breeding project who thinks they are working with pure ball pythons.

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That's the scary part as I see it.... these have the potential to be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Just like what is happening to Morelia.....all the crosses out there you don't know if you have a 100% jungle / diamond / Jag etc.

I don't like the idea of this at all, though that is just for me. to all you out there who like hybrids , do it up. But I agree it is scary how easily this could be mistaken for a ball and sent into the market.

In five years I dont want to have to worry about my ball pythons being part blood/mongrel/angolan/corn/lizard/dog.

With that being said, I am against hybrids for that reason.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Also, there is no such thing as a 3/4 ball or 2/3 ball python. The hybrid parent will have exactly 50% of it's genes from the ball python side, and exactly 50% of it's genes from the blood python side. But when the hybrid parent produces sex cells through the process of meiosis, it's a 50/50 shot to determine what side each gene gets it's genetic background from. Each sperm or egg cell produced can get anywhere between 0%-100% of it's genes from one side or the other. It is possible though extremely unlikely for one sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the ball python side, and it's equally possible for the next sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the blood python side. When you're talking about the millions of sperms being produced, each one carrying half the genetic material for millions of different genes you can have any percentage from either half of the hybrid that you can imagine. That's why 2nd generation hybrids are so extremely variable and unpredictable. And if you do get something interesting, it's very likely that it will NOT breed true.

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I was thinking about that but then I got to thinking that because of the huge number of genes (i.e. the classic "large number") that it probably does tend to come out pretty close to the theoretical percentages. But point taken that it's not guaranteed. And of course which individual appearance related genes are received makes the big difference on how ball python or blood python like it looks.

Also, don't forget crossing over that occurs during meiois, so its pretty random which offspring gets which parents genes. And just to echo what others have been saying: Most of the hybrids out there are pretty cool looking (not just balls) but the more they are bred and sold, the harder it is to keep track of what happens with those snakes. Look at all the Morellia out there with jag in them, and Im pretty sure jags only occur naturally in coastals and just jungles and IJ's (not a carpet guy so I could be wrong). And how many corn snakes out there are really pure corns? I'd hate for that to happen to ball pythons.

The problem with comparing these to carpet pythons is

1. The carpets are all subspecies not completely different species from different parts of the world

2. Carpet pythons were originally all lumped together in one species. They weren't divided out by subspecies until years AFTER Australia shut down exports, so people were crossing the different types together before they were even recognized as subspecies.

It's unlikely that anyone has pure carpet pythons anyway unless they've been recently smuggled out of Australia.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

The part I don't like is that as soon as the initial cross was made the decision was already made for future herpers that they can't be sure they have a ball python. Only the 2nd generation the records are getting muddied (aren't these 3/4 ball and 1/4 blood?) and some of them could pass for pure balls. I'm sure in another generation if not this some of them will be lost completely into the captive ball population. A few years down the road one of their more odd decedents could be picked out as a possible new ball morph and years might be wasted trying to bring it to market.

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Great point Randy!!! The combo in this link does not look to far from a Ball. Breed it to a Ball morph and you have a cool pattern animal that will certainly look like a Ball -- but not , in fact be one.:(

I think that's pretty damn cool but I'd rather make my own and put a morph ball python into the mix.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This is EXACTLY the reason I don't like hybrids. Many of those on that page could pass for normal ball pythons but will still carry many genes from their blood python side and eventually throw a monkey wrench into somebodies breeding project who thinks they are working with pure ball pythons.

Also, there is no such thing as a 3/4 ball or 2/3 ball python. The hybrid parent will have exactly 50% of it's genes from the ball python side, and exactly 50% of it's genes from the blood python side. But when the hybrid parent produces sex cells through the process of meiosis, it's a 50/50 shot to determine what side each gene gets it's genetic background from. Each sperm or egg cell produced can get anywhere between 0%-100% of it's genes from one side or the other. It is possible though extremely unlikely for one sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the ball python side, and it's equally possible for the next sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the blood python side. When you're talking about the millions of sperms being produced, each one carrying half the genetic material for millions of different genes you can have any percentage from either half of the hybrid that you can imagine. That's why 2nd generation hybrids are so extremely variable and unpredictable. And if you do get something interesting, it's very likely that it will NOT breed true.

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Your right....that's why in large scale experiments where they cross two F1 hybrids it's possible to get back the parental type completely....see this post...http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...9&postcount=26

So the "blood" isnt really contaminated if you can get back the parental type in an F1xF1 cross!

Very interesting. I would have expected a lot more genes to be involved. Even accounting for the likely much longer than 10,000 year separation of African and Asian pythons and not limiting to the visible phenotype effecting genes from the studies there could well be less than 100 genes different between ball and blood pythons. But since the odds of getting a pure parent type increase exponentially with the number of different genes even just 10 different would make it very difficult to undue the mixing. Especially if a sizable percentage of the different genes where not ones that effected appearance but rather maybe more subtle genes perhaps significant for health or reproduction.

this one is stunning Mongrel Ball ID= RR 08 138