inbreeding

right now i have 1male mouse with 6 females, 3blacks, 2browns, 1gray/silver. I bought them all from petco (only place i could find that sold mice live) so i am sure they are all related. How bad is inbreeding?

I think inbreeding rodents for more than 2 generations can have some adverse effects. I am not sure how well your mice grow and breed but obtaining good stock is important. I have seen slow growing and producing mice that tend to get sick a couple of times at pet shops.

Your best bet is to get breeders from a large rodent breeding facility because they tend to have good genetic diversity. Even better drop the mice and switch to african soft furs. On the other hand, if your mice breed and grow well I wouldn't worry about inbreeding for a couple of generations.

This is why you should get a very large rodent colony with a diverse gene pool. Look at this as a great opportunity to expand your rodent colony and with it your snake collection.

i just got 1.3 collection at my hourse a few weeks ago all three a pregnant and 2 should pop any day now im not sure about there relatives since i got from petco but ill post when they do on how it went.

I want to get both rats and asf, but I wont to try my hand with mice first! I have been looking for people around here to buy mice/rats/asf from and there isnt many places, and the places that do sell are expensive, $10+ for a small rat!

You can successfully line breed for many generations. (line breeding meaning father to daughter, or son to mother) It's how many famous mouse or rat lines are created and maintained. Through minimal outcrossing and line breeding.


I would say you can safely go up to the fourth generation on line breeding, then you should outcross.

Ok thanks!

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Originally Posted by dacalio

I think inbreeding rodents for more than 2 generations can have some adverse effects. I am not sure how well your mice grow and breed but obtaining good stock is important.

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Actually, it makes no difference. Obtaining good stock is where it counts. Inbreeding doesn't matter. I have seen and done inbreeding for hundreds of generations. And it doesn't matter whether its father to daughter, mother to son, or brother to sister. You can inbreed and inbreed mice however many generations you want.

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Your best bet is to get breeders from a large rodent breeding facility because they tend to have good genetic diversity. On the other hand, if your mice breed and grow well I wouldn't worry about inbreeding for a couple of generations.

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Again, in this case, a rodent breeder would be the worst place to get genetic diversity. Most hold back animals to replace stock as they become "worn out".

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This is why you should get a very large rodent colony with a diverse gene pool. Look at this as a great opportunity to expand your rodent colony and with it your snake collection.

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If you start with good genes, there is no need to diversify. There are several strains of lab mice that are bred for maximum production. By diluting the genes of these strains, you are altering the productivity.

You are probably going to ask me how I know this. Well, I used to work for the largest rodent supplier in the U.S. You know who it is, but I'm not going to say. I worked there before he went "pro" and I took care of the snakes. A good friend of mine obtained a group of 5.20 mice from Harlan Labs around 10 years ago. These mice were all approximately 28 days old when he recieved them, and they began producing within 3 weeks. Since then, he has produced 100s of thousands, if not MILLIONS, of mice from the original 25 mice he purchased. His adults retire at about 8 months old and 50-60grams each. That's rather large for a mouse. He currently supplies several raptor sanctuaries, a zoo, and lots of individuals. So, in some cases, genetic diversity is not the best idea.

BTW, this post was not meant to be offensive to the original poster. I mearly wanted to post it as informative. I hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Clear

I want to get both rats and asf, but I wont to try my hand with mice first! I have been looking for people around here to buy mice/rats/asf from and there isnt many places, and the places that do sell are expensive, $10+ for a small rat!

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You'll make the 10 dollars back with your first litter. I'd say it's worth it.
*shrugs*

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

You can successfully line breed for many generations. (line breeding meaning father to daughter, or son to mother)

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That's not line breeding... That's inbreeding.
Breeding daughter to father and mother to son is in fact inbreeding. Line breeding would be breeding an aunt to her nephew or a niece to her uncle.

When it coems to Inbreeding rodents it does not matter. as long as teir healthy thats all that matters. im on my 6 generation of inbreeding and its non stop babies. im euthanizing 60 mice a month.

inbreeding with mice is considered when it has been mated brother x sister for 20 or more consecutive generations (F20). All offspring can be traced back to a single ancestral breeding pair in the 20th or subsequent generation. Such inbred strains are 98% identical

It would take a while before the inbreeding shows bad results.
This would be just one way to do it without getting new stock.
This should last for a few years or more.

1 - Breed founding father to founding mothers for about 8 months or so.
You get 8 generations of babies not bred back to the parents yet.

2 - On the 8th month breed the father to the newest daughters.
-Inbreed level 1- and it has already been 8 months!

3 - Keep a male from the 8th month and breed him to the daughters from step 2 or their daughters.
Or keep a male from the original fathers breeding to the 8th month daughters and breed back to them.
- inbreeding level 2 - then another eight months go by.....
Or keep a male from each female litter and breed to daughters from the other females litters.

Hehee.. I think I made this sound too complicated but.. the easiest way to keep your bloodline fresh just get a new male every 8 months and breed to the newest daughters.
:rofl:

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Originally Posted by Hyper Joe

It would take a while before the inbreeding shows bad results.
This would be just one way to do it without getting new stock.
This should last for a few years or more.

1 - Breed founding father to founding mothers for about 8 months or so.
You get 8 generations of babies not bred back to the parents yet.

2 - On the 8th month breed the father to the newest daughters.
-Inbreed level 1- and it has already been 8 months!

3 - Keep a male from the 8th month and breed him to the daughters from step 2 or their daughters.
Or keep a male from the original fathers breeding to the 8th month daughters and breed back to them.
- inbreeding level 2 - then another eight months go by.....
Or keep a male from each female litter and breed to daughters from the other females litters.

Hehee.. I think I made this sound too complicated but.. the easiest way to keep your bloodline fresh just get a new male every 8 months and breed to the newest daughters.
:rofl:

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the only problem with that is its not inbreeding. none of those mice would carry all the same genes. what i posted is what harlan teklan deems inbred

I haven't added new stock to my current colony in the three or four years that it's been going and I won't either. I've spoken to several rodent breeders who have told me that they've had their colony crash after bringing in new stock.

Any time you bring in new mice, you also risk bringing in the diseases that they may have. I don't know how many generations I've gone through, I don't keep my breeders around for very long, maybe 3-4 months at the most so I'm sure they're fairly well inbred but I haven't noticed any harmful effects. I'd much rather risk a little inbreeding depression then lose the whole colony by bringing in new stock with diseases that my colony may no longer have any immunity against.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Any time you bring in new mice, you also risk bringing in the diseases that they may have....(stuff deleted)....I'd much rather risk a little inbreeding depression then lose the whole colony by bringing in new stock with diseases that my colony may no longer have any immunity against.

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That's a good point, and I had not thought of it that way. If I were to bring in new stock, I would obviously quarantine. However, that doesn't necessarily protect against something the new stock is carrying but does not show symptoms.

I think another thing is a lot of people misunderstand inbreeding. It does not cause bad genes to spontaneously appear. Random mutations do occur, but that will happen whether or not your are inbreeding. What inbreeding does is increase the chances of a bad gene becoming widespread throughout your colony. If you have a colony that has good genetics, or even if you have some bad genes but have enough good ones and selectively breed for the best animals, you should be able to maintain healthy stock even if it is extremely inbred.

Please note I am speaking hypothetically and based on what I have read & heard from people who do have the experience of inbreeding their mice for many generations. Although I have already done some inbreeding in my mouse colony, I just haven't been at it long enough to be able to speak from experience as far as long term effects.

if you have any bad gene in your collection with inbreeding it will bring it out eventually it doesnt matter if only one mouse carried the gene or 5. i have seen ppl get it usually it results in deformed babies or offspring that seem fine but usually around weanling time they will start to run in circles stuff like that, but also if you get lab mice they could also carry something more serious such as cancer or any of the other genetic diseases

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Originally Posted by nixer

the only problem with that is its not inbreeding. none of those mice would carry all the same genes. what i posted is what harlan teklan deems inbred

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That is Harlan Teklan. That is their terminology not necessarily the correct one.

Definition:
Inbreeding is breeding between close relatives, whether plant or animal.

Another note: Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding.

There are various websites that have definitions for inbreeding, line-breeding, outcrossing and outbreeding.
Here is just a few.

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/breeding-types.html
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html
http://www.netpets.org/cats/reference/info/inbreed.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Marge_S_2...inbreeding.htm

This one is very interesting.
http://goto.glocalnet.net/rat/gen/inbreeding.htm

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Originally Posted by Clear

I bought them all from petco (only place i could find that sold mice live) so i am sure they are all related.

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Here's what we did... There is only one pet store in our town, and the owner breeds his own mice. We bought 6 females from him. Then we drove 45 minutes to the nearest Petco and bought 2 males. Then we made two 1.3 colonies. All 5 females are bred (1 died) and the 2 males have since been fed off. When the babies reach 2-months-old I will separate the entire colony into male and female groups. Then they will ALL be fed off. Next year I'll repeat this process. There may be an easier way, but I am 100% sure that my mice are not inbred, and I think that makes for healthier mice. JMO

~ Michael

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Originally Posted by nixer

if you have any bad gene in your collection with inbreeding it will bring it out eventually it doesnt matter if only one mouse carried the gene or 5. i have seen ppl get it usually it results in deformed babies or offspring that seem fine but usually around weanling time they will start to run in circles stuff like that, but also if you get lab mice they could also carry something more serious such as cancer or any of the other genetic diseases

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Running in circles is cause by an inner ear infection. It creates an unbalance in the equilibrium and is even more noticable when they are picked up. It has nothing to do with inbreeding. I'm not sure if it's caused by bacteria or just a weakened immune system.

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Originally Posted by M&J in NC

There may be an easier way, but I am 100% sure that my mice are not inbred, and I think that makes for healthier mice. JMO

~ Michael

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Not necessarily. Some strains of inbred mice are actually very hardy and produce very large litters. Harlan has strains that produced average litters of 14-16 and adults retire at around 60 grams. Sometimes outbreeding will weaken the genes as mentioned above, as well as the immune system.