Double & Triple Morph Questions

I am normally very good with genetics, but this recent question, although simple has me stumped. The question is: If you were to breed a spinner to a normal, do you have a chance of producing spinners? Also, the same question for spinner blasts.
Thankyou

Jason

Yes, you do. The odds are stacked against you but you can infact get Spinners out of a Spinner + Normal, that also applies to Spinner Blasts, but again the odds are against you.

Yes :D

Yes, Cool! I thought it was possible but wasnt 100% sure. Thankyou yall!!!

Are the odds the same as a spider x pin, or is there a much lower chance spinner x normal because a gene crossover might be required?

I would think the spinner would have a spider gene from one parent and a pin gene from the other so the pin and spider genes would be on opposite sides of the DNA, and offspring would likely receive one gene or the other, but I don't understand what % of the time genes cross over. It might be very common so odds are the same as pin x spider, or odds could be radically different if genes rarely cross over.

Can any long-term breeder or geneticist here help me understand this better?

What you are dealing with is two genes that have different locations or loci on the chromosomes. Because of this, a spider cross pinstripe has exactly the same odds of producing spinners as spinner cross normal (which are both 1 in 4).

This is different than say, a super pastel (or super anything) or BEL for example. Those two genes share the same location so a super x normal is 100% pastel, for example. But a pastel x pastel is 25% normal, 50% pastel, and 25% super pastel.

Did that help?

JonV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffFlanagan

I would think the spinner would have a spider gene from one parent and a pin gene from the other so the pin and spider genes would be on opposite sides of the DNA

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Think not of opposite sides of the DNA, but rather of different locations.

JonV

You don't see a lot of information on what people got breeding the combo animals. There are enough morphs that we might yet run into a combo of two linked genes but it might take a while to be recognized. I’ve not heard anything to indicate that spider and pinstripe are close neighbors on the same chromosome and there may well be no connection at all other than somewhat similar looks.

Spinner blast X Normal you end up with a 12.5% chance of each egg making one of the following. (Spinner Blast is Spider, Pin, and Pastel if memory serves me right.)

Normal, Spider, Pin, Pastel, Bumble bee, spinner, Pastel Pin, and Spinner Blast.

If a spinner blast was bred to a spider the odds get kinda funky.

6.25% chance of a Normal
18.75% chance of a Spider
6.25% chance of a pin
6.25% chance of a Pastel
18.75% chance of a Spinner
18.75% chance of a bumble Bee
6.25% chance of a Pastel Pin
18.75% chance of a Spinner Blast

Now if we go Spinner Blast to Spinner Blast Chrismas Occurs

Normal 1.5%
Spider 4.8%
Pin 4.8%
Pastel 3.1%
Super Pastel 1.5%
Spinner 14.1%
Bumble Bee 9.3%
Pastel Pin 9.3%
Spinner Blast 28.1%
Killer Bee 4.8%
Super Pastel Pin 4.8%
Super Spinner Blast 14.1%

(Above numbers rounded to first decimal place.)

I think it will be interesting when we get to the point that BPs are so combo'd the only way to figure out what's there is to breed them.

Like super pastel yellowbelly lesser pinstripe spider, for example.

JonV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

Spinner blast X Normal you end up with a 12.5% chance of each egg making one of the following. (Spinner Blast is Spider, Pin, and Pastel if memory serves me right.)

Normal, Spider, Pin, Pastel, Bumble bee, spinner, Pastel Pin, and Spinner Blast.

If a spinner blast was bred to a spider the odds get kinda funky.

6.25% chance of a Normal
18.75% chance of a Spider
6.25% chance of a pin
6.25% chance of a Pastel
18.75% chance of a Spinner
18.75% chance of a bumble Bee
6.25% chance of a Pastel Pin
18.75% chance of a Spinner Blast

Now if we go Spinner Blast to Spinner Blast Chrismas Occurs

Normal 1.5%
Spider 4.8%
Pin 4.8%
Pastel 3.1%
Super Pastel 1.5%
Spinner 14.1%
Bumble Bee 9.3%
Pastel Pin 9.3%
Spinner Blast 28.1%
Killer Bee 4.8%
Super Pastel Pin 4.8%
Super Spinner Blast 14.1%

(Above numbers rounded to first decimal place.)

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Do people do a lot of spider x spider breedings? One would think that the homozygous form of the spider may increase the wobbling? Also, there are a lot of spider breedings out there...and from what I've heard NO ONE has a spider that throws all spider babies...so maybe the homozygous form is lethal in the egg?

JonV

Not a whole lot of people do spider to spider breedings, but if one were to then there is a chance that you could increase the possibility of getting the head wobble. But then again its not really a guarantee, there are alot of variables one must take into account on that.

Quote:

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If a spinner blast was bred to a spider the odds get kinda funky.

6.25% chance of a Normal
18.75% chance of a Spider
6.25% chance of a pin
6.25% chance of a Pastel
18.75% chance of a Spinner
18.75% chance of a bumble Bee
6.25% chance of a Pastel Pin
18.75% chance of a Spinner Blast

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Wouldnt you get spiders, spinner, bumblebee, and spinner blast? When you cross two spider genes together you produce 100% spiders right? Which will eliminate the possibility of producing normals, pins, lemon blasts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jyson

When you cross two spider genes together you produce 100% spiders right? Which will eliminate the possibility of producing normals, pins, lemon blasts.

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No,
A spider bred to a Spider, boiled down, is still a Het to Het breeding, meaning that you would theoretically produce 25% normal, 50% Spider and 25% "Super Spider' (homozygous).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muddoc

No,
A spider bred to a Spider, boiled down, is still a Het to Het breeding, meaning that you would theoretically produce 25% normal, 50% Spider and 25% "Super Spider' (homozygous).

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Has the existence of a super spider ever been established? By that I don't even mean visual, does anyone have a spider that throws all spider babies?

JonV

I have heard from a pretty reliable source that there is one out there. It looks like a normal Spider, but has produced somewhere around 80 baby Spiders and no normals. With that said, I have never seen it, nor seen proof, nor talked to the owner of that animal. So, I still want to see it with my own eyes. I am going to try to breed my BumbleBee to a Spider female this year (depends on how many Spider girls I have in the program this year).

tsk has a spider x spider clutch this year, last year alot of the eggs died during incubation, if there is a super i think they will see it this year, i doubt it though.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. From what I heard the only difference between a "super" spider and a regular spider is that a super can produce clutches that consist of 100% spiders, and the regular or "hets" produce only 50% spiders and 50% normals.

Thankyou guys again for yalls help, it really has put to rest that annoying "what if" on that question.

If a homozygous spider is possible and even proven then you have to wonder why no one has come forward with one. Maybe the neurological problems are worse, if the homozygous spider exist at all.

I believe TSK mentioned some smaller eggs that went bad from their 2007 spider X spider clutches and it was darn close to the 1/4 expected homozygous but of course that could have just been a coincidence. I've not heard what they did in 2008 as far as spider X spider. I wonder if homozygous spider could be fatal at an early enough stage to actually cause the small eggs?