Minimum Number Of Posts Before Letting Someone Post In For Sale Section

Admin...

Please before giving a quick response to this, talk to each other and consider it.

This site should put a rule in the for sale section that says you must post at least #### times before you are allowed to post something in the for sale section.

The thread in the breeder feedback section right now speaks volumes on why this wonderful site needs to initiate this rule.

Think about it. it would encourage participation in the newbee sections.... It would allow us to get to know someone before they put something up for sale.

Most importantly it would stop someone from being able to spend 5 minutes making a profile, and posting a complete scam in the for sale section that some poor person falls for.

PLEASE consider this.

What should the minum number of posts be? 500 would be a nice start. 1000 would be even better. 2000 fantastic. That is for Yall to decide.

Please consider this. To the fellow forum members... If you think this is a good idea, now is the time to speak up.



Sincerly

I am going to say that I agree with this. But I think that 500 is a bit harsh still.

There are people on this forum that only come and post occasionally that we know very well that only have 100 posts.
But I still think that it should be at least 100 posts + before anyone can post in the for sale section.

As a person who falls for scams very easily, this would be very reassuring to me.

as a newbie, im torn...im a shy person by nature, but...if i were to want to sell something then i think it would be a good idea, as mike said, it would give members a chance to get to "know" the people they are dealing with. but it brings up how well do you ever "know" anyone online? granted poss. feedback, maybe meeting peeps at shows, but in the long run, this guy had what, 10 diff. identies, 4 diff. myspace pages, and God only knows how many diff e-mails. i think its a great idea in theory, but would it stop or even slow down the true scam artists? just my thoughts.

I think this is a good idea, but 500, 1000, or especially 2000 posts is a little harsh. I've been a member on here almost two years now, and this is only my 375th post... I think 100 posts would be fine for people. Maybe if you had to be a member for like 3 months, or have 100 posts. Whichever comes first?

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Originally Posted by mykaija

as a newbie, im torn...im a shy person by nature, but...if i were to want to sell something then i think it would be a good idea, as mike said, it would give members a chance to get to "know" the people they are dealing with. but it brings up how well do you ever "know" anyone online? granted poss. feedback, maybe meeting peeps at shows, but in the long run, this guy had what, 10 diff. identies, 4 diff. myspace pages, and God only knows how many diff e-mails. i think its a great idea in theory, but would it stop or even slow down the true scam artists? just my thoughts.

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Slow down would be FAR better then nothing. This guy in question had like 3 or 4 different registered usernames that he could have sold with! That wouldn't be the case if he had to make 500 or 1,000 legitimate posts before being able to sell! He simply would have moved onto a much simpler forum to try to sell his scam on.

I like this idea. Over the last couple of weeks I have seen a couple of people posting in the classified area as their first post. Those people are just scum looking for a quick sale or scammers.

If I remember correctly, the idea of letting new members post in the For Sale area was because we wanted it to be open to new people looking to rehome their snakes.

If a minimum number of posts is required to post in the for sale area, I would suggest creating a seperate "Adoption" area to cover that circumstance.

While I understand your point and concerns

What if the person does not wish to participate but wish to re-home an animal ASAP because they can no longer keep him?

Also with your 500 posts limit this would mean reputable breeders/people (Albey (129 posts) , Ben Renick ( 439 posts), EBN (47 posts) , BHB (137 posts) ) from whom I would buy without hesitation would no longer be able to post an ad in our ad section since obviously they do not meet YOUR requirements and since when you make rules everyone has to abide by them no exception ;)

If someone wants to scams others they will whether they have 5 posts on a forum or several hundreds, know who you are buying from, ask for references, ask people you trust in this industry about the person you are planning to buy from. RESEARCH reserach research!

There is a problem with this. Why should it be ok for a guy out of work who can spend all day on the computer to sell because he's always on here but those of us like myself who work 10-12 hours a day with 2 kids and a hundred plus animals and only post every once in a while could not? This would not really be a fair way to screen people would it.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

If I remember correctly, the idea of letting new members post in the For Sale area was because we wanted it to be open to new people looking to rehome their snakes.

If a minimum number of posts is required to post in the for sale area, I would suggest creating a seperate "Adoption" area to cover that circumstance.

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EXCELLENT idea. To add to it, if you post in the for adoption section, and it is found out that your are actually selling something, and not giving it up for free, you are SEVERLY penalized. Either by being banned from the site or getting lots of "bad boy points"

I do like Daniel's idea of seperating For Sale from Adoptions though. Definitely something I'd support and it would actually give our adoptions/rehomes a better chance at not getting lost in the for sale ads. Thanks Daniel! Something I'll definitely be promoting to staff as we discuss these ideas coming forth in this thread.

Mike, thanks for making this thread. I can't guarantee yours or anyone's ideas will happen just as expressed here, but the staff here are always open to new ideas and the suggestions of our membership.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Also with your 500 posts limit this would mean reputable breeders/people (Albey (129 posts) , Ben Renick ( 439 posts), EBN (47 posts) , BHB (137 posts) ) from whom I would buy without hesitation would no longer be able to post an ad in our ad section since obviously they do not meet YOUR requirements and since when you make rules everyone has to abide by them no exception ;)!

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What would be the harm in forcing these fantastic, reputable members from participating more in the forums before being able to sell? Think about that.

Agreed that the 500 post limit is too high. 5 posts would be sufficient......

There are people that only show up to this site to post classified ads.....that is unexceptable in my opinion...

.....or as a community we could completely wipe out the rep points of people who abuse our classified system......

.....here is a classified post from today.....first post and it is a classified ad...
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=75024

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Originally Posted by mcavana

EXCELLENT idea. To add to it, if you post in the for adoption section, and it is found out that your are actually selling something, and not giving it up for free, you are SEVERLY penalized. Either by being banned from the site or getting lots of "bad boy points"

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For me, that would be an easy one. If you ask for more than shipping costs - it's a sale!

I've rehomed snakes we've rescued. I wouldn't dream of this ridiculous concept of a "rehoming fee". All I've ever asked for is that the new owner cover the costs of shipping that snake to their address. Any costs Mike and I incur rehabbing a snake is something we knew we'd have to deal with when we took the animal in.

I don't buy the "re-homing fee makes sure you don't send the snake to a bad home" thing. If you aren't sure it's a good home, no fee in the world is going to guarantee that. :rolleyes: Most of the time re-homing fees are just a way to get around a "no sales" rule or to recover costs that you should be absorbing yourself since you willingly took in a creature in need.

*off my soapbox now*

[QUOTE=daniel1983;876637]Agreed that the 500 post limit is too high. 5 posts would be sufficient......QUOTE]


How long does it take to make 5 posts? How long does it take to make 500 posts???

Like Daniel said, if they are a new bee trying to get rid of a snake they can't take care of... put it in the adoption section for free. You can do it as your very first post.

If you are a small time breeder, why would you have a problem with "putting in your time" with 500 posts to be allowed the
PRIVILEDGE OF SELLING ON THIS FANTASIC SITE????

I think the minimum should be NO LESS then 500. If you don't have 500 yet, feel free to offer your animal up for adoption for FREE. Again, you can do that with your FIRST POST.

Mike, 500 posts is a lot. With our recent higher profile at Daytona and on Reptile Radio we are going to attract a lot of newcomers that won't make that number for a very long time. Some of them might be scammers, some of them though are exactly the kind of breeders and hobbyists that this site needs as it grows up.

There may be a compromise to find in any number and that's something the staff I'm sure will be discussing at length.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

.....here is a classified post from today.....first post and it is a classified ad...
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=75024

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Geesh Daniel, I've never agreed with you this many times - mark it on a calendar somebody LOL.

I don't care for the join and post an ad then leave type either. We are a community, not a for sale classifieds site. We only offer this service as a part of this community. I don't care for those that simply use one part and don't give back to the community in another area.

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How long does it take to make 5 posts? How long does it take to make 500 posts???

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If the question is 'how long', why not put the limit on membership time instead of post number?

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

.....here is a classified post from today.....first post and it is a classified ad...
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=75024

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Exactly. This is totally preventable folks. WITHOUT hurting the folks trying to get rid of snakes they can't take care of.

Rehoming fee??? NO. Absolutely NO rehoming fee in adoption section. ONLY fee allowed is shipping. A simple sticky will educate people on what is normal for shipping fees.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

What would be the harm in forcing these fantastic, reputable members from participating more in the forums before being able to sell? Think about that.

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Because Mike, we don't force people to participate. All that will get you is people typing "ditto" in threads giving advice just to shove up their post count. Also do you want to call someone like Brian at BHB or Kevin at NERD or whoever and tell them that they just aren't chatty enough to get to sell a snake on this forum? I sure as heck don't. :rofl:

Anyways, as I posted earlier I think this is a fantastic thread that will get the staff and membership talking about an important aspect of how this site operates. If this current mess with LAWReptiles brought this on, well at least that scammer left one darn good thing behind in his icky wake.

I agree with Mike on this, to an extent. Although the number of post required maybe to high and may take a year for me to get close to 500, maybe that's what it takes to keep scammers away. Like Rick I also work 12+ hours a day sometimes 6 days a week. Whatever time I have left I spend taking care of my animals and spending as much time as I can with my son and wife.

This may work for many of the more active members out there but of course it would not work for everyone. Whatever decision that good folks here at BP.net makes I will support. After all there are many other venues to sell your animals if you need to. I come to this site for the great resources it offers and the valuable input of its members.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Because Mike, we don't force people to participate.

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Thank you for actually considering my suggestions JO....

Not saying anyone should be forced to participate. There is a difference between that and requiring a minumum number of posts before being afforded the priviledge of using the for sale section.

Remember, it is a Priviledge!!!

don't focus so much on the number... focus on the concept. 100, 250, 500 whatever... anything is better then nothing.

There is nothing wrong with making people put in their time with the forum before letting them sell. Remember guys, this is not the normal site. We are a step above.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Thank you for actually considering my suggestions JO....

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When have the staff not considered a member's suggestions? We may not always implement them or implement them in an altered format but I think I can comfortably speak for the staff in saying that we do not just disregard members concerns without due consideration.

This is a very valid concern and it is being discussed by staff. It's far too early to say where that discussion will lead since this thread is just newly started.

Sorry Jo, that was a TYPO. what I meant to say was "thank you for considering my suggestions" big difference, I know.

Sorry, I am pretty upset... I almost did business with this thief. taking a break now. will be back later.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Sorry Jo, that was a TYPO. what I meant to say was "thank you for considering my suggestions" big difference, I know.

Sorry, I am pretty upset... I almost did business with this thief. taking a break now. will be back later.

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That's why it's so important to vett a person you want to buy or trade with.

I doubt that I personally would do a trade with someone I don't know or someone that doesn't already have a stellar reputation when I vett them. Law wouldn't fit either of those criteria for me - not someone I know anything about and definitely never built a stellar reptuation with people endorsing him.

I feel that there IS some responsibility on me to make sure I cover myself. I don't generally make a purchase for my collection without a lot of time researching them, be it by the BOI or calling people I trust to ask if they have ever heard of or dealt with them.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Sorry Jo, that was a TYPO. what I meant to say was "thank you for considering my suggestions" big difference, I know.

Sorry, I am pretty upset... I almost did business with this thief. taking a break now. will be back later.

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No problem, Mike. :)

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Originally Posted by firehop

There is a problem with this. Why should it be ok for a guy out of work who can spend all day on the computer to sell because he's always on here but those of us like myself who work 10-12 hours a day with 2 kids and a hundred plus animals and only post every once in a while could not? This would not really be a fair way to screen people would it.

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I agree with you. I do not think that I would be fair to the new people who are not scammers. IMO, I do not think that they should set a limit.

As a newer member and a newer breeder as well I feel I have some good insight into this! The way I have planned my side business so far is to actually go ahead and meet people and talk to people on the phones and try to actually make some new friends along the way! I will hope to FINALLY produce some balls this year and I have been working on a site as well as getting to know members. I hope that when snakes are popping out of eggs people trust me enough to know I am a good guy and what you see is what you get! However I think in LAWreptiles case he just showed up and had snakes for sale and was active in the community. If we had something like a one month probationary period that would have at least made him use the site for a small period of time without income. Just my 2 cents.

-Cliff

Here's a thought, and I'm really not trying to be silly, but whatever your personal thresh-hold is for minimal post counts is, why not just choose NOT to respond to ads that don't have your personal minimal count?

If someone pops on here and only posts ads, and I don't know who they are - I'm not likely to do business with them.

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

As a newer member and a newer breeder as well I feel I have some good insight into this! The way I have planned my side business so far is to actually go ahead and meet people and talk to people on the phones and try to actually make some new friends along the way! I will hope to FINALLY produce some balls this year and I have been working on a site as well as getting to know members. I hope that when snakes are popping out of eggs people trust me enough to know I am a good guy and what you see is what you get! However I think in LAWreptiles case he just showed up and had snakes for sale and was active in the community. If we had something like a one month probationary period that would have at least made him use the site for a small period of time without income. Just my 2 cents.

-Cliff

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He did use the site for a bit before scamming people.

well i agree and as that will take me away from using the for sale section for a few hundred post(if the min was set at 500-1000) id be ok with it because frankly ive seen alot of 10 and below posters putting up animals for sale im for it and would back it

And for those who are newer to the hobby - Chris Johnson of TSE was a prolific poster AND had a great reputation that all the rules we would set up would not prevent him from posting. And he turned out to be one of the historically largest scammers in the industry.

The staff dealt with LAWReptiles swifly as soon as we were aware of what he really was. And he did participate on the forums as well. In all the time I've been here, he's been the anomoly and not the rule.

I'm new to the whole BP scene but been hanging out at forums and doing a lot of reading and not so much posting but sounds like it makes good sense to me . I wouldn't go over board on the number of posts . I think a lot of people at first are like myself they hangout and read and learn more than post .

I was really surprised when I joined this forum that it had a for sale/trade section that was open to anyone who registered. It seemed most sites I've been to you had to pay to help keep the site going and in doing so got to post for sale threads. I came to this site to learn more about Ball Pythons and to be able to share stories/concerns with people who liked/loved them as much as I do. But there came a time when I realized I over stepped in purchasing too many snakes and when my living situation wasn't certain I found it very useful to use the for sale section. Of course I only did it for local sales only for many reasons. 1. I had never shipped and wasn't able to. 2. I wanted to meet the people I was selling my snakes to. 3. I wanted the person getting my snakes to feel comfortable with getting them from me as I was a new person on the site and no one really knew me.
I can see it from both views, limit or no limit. I am glad at the time I needed it there was no limit, but now being around a little longer I can see why a limit can be useful as long as it's not extreme. As for bigger breeders, I don't think I've really noticed too many posting as they have other ways to sell their snakes. But for mid to small sized breeders I can see it being a great way to get your name and information out there.
But really, when it comes down to it, it is always up to each individual person if they buy/trade from any one person. The old saying Buyer Beware should always be in everyone's mind. Just my two cents. ;)

I think even 500 is way to many I am on here all the time but I just dont post that much I think this will make people post really dumb comments just to get there amount up I would say 50 to 100 is enough but as said even if they post 500 they still could be a bad breeder

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Here's a thought, and I'm really not trying to be silly, but whatever your personal thresh-hold is for minimal post counts is, why not just choose NOT to respond to ads that don't have your personal minimal count?

If someone pops on here and only posts ads, and I don't know who they are - I'm not likely to do business with them.

Just a thought.

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Good point, if you don't want to purchase from someone that hasn't posted 500 or more times, then don't.

Another thing, say Ralph Davis, or another reptuable breeder, joins the site and wants to post some snakes for sale. Should we be like, "Sorry Ralph, you have to post 500 times."

Most of the people that post snakes for sale are honest people. I don't think there should be a limit for a few bad apples.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Another thing, say Ralph Davis, or another reptuable breeder, joins the site and wants to post some snakes for sale. Should we be like, "Sorry Ralph, you have to post 500 times." .

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Sorry, I don't see anything wrong with having a rule that they need to at least contribute to the site (in the form of forum of participating in the forums) before being able to enjoy the privledge of the for sale section.

Please let me point out something from the "Rules for Free Advertising on BP.net Classifieds and Forum threads."

Ball-Pythons.net is here to serve the community of both current and new enthusiasts of herps. Our primary mission is to educate and support those wanting to learn. These free advertising areas are for our contributing members to use and not intended as a free way to run a business.

I think a time limit would be better than a post count. Or maybe a combo like (just an example) two months and 20 posts. Or something like that. But I agree that we'll get a LOT of junk posts from people trying to get their post count higher if the requirement went by post count alone.

In an ideal world, it would be based on each individual. Each person has to ask permission to use the sale section and a staff person would look at that persons past posts, etc and decide if they should be granted access. But I understand that it's not feasible. It would take up more time for the mods/admin.

This is a GREAT thread!!! How about this: a minimum of 25 posts, but in at least 3-5 different categories. And 1 of them MUST be the intro section. This, we can at least be aware someone exists, and they can get to know us a little too.

I like the idea of some sort of rule for posting 'for sale' ads... but post count won't cut it. As has been said already, many folks will just post 'ditto' or 'yeah, you're right!' over and over to boost count.
I am personally familiar with that practice, as one of my dearest friends with whom I play two online D&D games will put up a post to ANYTHING just to get more roleplaying experience points. :D Luckily, the DM (my BF) has noticed and will no longer be rewarding him points just for posting.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...
I believe that research is the greatest tool anyone can have for any situation. It is up to all of us as individuals to notice if the person putting up the ad is
A) Someone who has been seen around the site before or not. i.e is that their first post.
B) One who has put up ONLY for sale posts and nothing else.
C) One who doesn't answer PMs or answers with questionable things.
D) One who isn't willing to talk with you offline (at least by phone) and give you details of their animals.

Other than that, if they give a name check it out on the BOI and ask around. That's what the Inquiries section is for after all. :)

Scammers get to people who are not alert, who don't ask questions, and who don't know their way around that particular business area. They are clever and crafty folk who stop at nothing to achieve the scam.

I agree with the idea to have an Adoption section, as many people just want to find good homes for their animals for whatever reason.
As far as the for sale section...maybe a membership time minimum would work, but the best weapon is alertness and research. :)

Sorry for the long rant, there.

I think it should be like the QT room, where you have to ask for permission. That was scammers and people who only come to the forum and do a quick look through to see if there is a for sale section, will not see it and possibly leave. When they ask for acceptance the mods will have the chance to deny them for now because either they are too new or something smells fishy about them.

Just my .02

While I haven't been around this forum for a very long time, nor have I made a bunch of posts, I do believe that this discussion is really just to allow people to vent about the frustration they have with scammers.

Unfortunately, the people that are going to attempt to scam others will meet any and all criteria that are placed on them. They will post 500+ or 1000+ times, be a member for 3+ months, have posts in 3+ categories (including an introduction), and they will pay the fee (if it were required), all to post in the sales section.

The people that are willing to scam/con other people will do whatever it takes to make their dishonest living. That is really the bottom line. Yes, it can be made to be more inconvenient for them, but they will still attempt to practice their deceitful ways, no matter what requirements they have to meet.

Personally I do not buy from someone until I gather as much information about them as I possibly can. I check the inquiries/feedback on this site along with the BOI and then I still look to see what else I can find on them. To me, it does not matter if they have 5000+ posts, I still want to know what kind of experiences that other buyers have had with that seller.

This is just my opinion on the subject.

John

Hmm.

I really understand your point Robin, but there's a problem with it. I'm a SUCKER for anything interesting. And honestly... theres a lot more 'spam non-contributing member' posts in the for sale section, and it's hard to see anyone that I recognize because the others just crowd it up.

After reading through this entire thread I think we could do a number of things to work together to avoid future issues.

First of all, minimum 25 posts. It's not painful, but needed.
Time limit of 2 months, so spamming would be useless, and obvious if they go right to the sale ads after their 25th post. :rolleyes:

You are required to ask an Admin to POST in the sales. This doesn't mean you are not allowed to view them, but rather an Admin has to give you permission before posting.

Create a non-limited, non-sale adoption section to the forums.

Just what I hae come up with.

I've been here for 8 months officially and have less than 60 posts, granted I try to look everyday and see what is happening but to participate fully and make hundreds of posts you need to be here at least daily to follow in the conversations and honestly some of us are unable to do so all the time depending on what else is going on. Now I will say this when I have stuff for sale I know I spend more time trying to make sure I am available to answer questions online. All in all I have yet to use the for sale section but if I do I sometime in the future I will have to post alot of nice pic comments to reach 500.

Personally I don't see why a buyer can't check into a seller before arranging to trade or buy from them.
Just because some people don't want to do the legwork? Look into who you want to buy from. Why should the site rules change, just to make it harder for non-chatty people to sell? There's a ton of posts that have no content posted every day, they enhance the fun of the site, but they certainly don't mean the poster is a better person to buy from.
If you have 5000 posts here, I'll STILL look up your info. If you have 0 posts here, I'll do exactly the same thing. No amount of rules for posting ads will stop someone from scamming you if you fail to do your homework.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Personally I don't see why a buyer can't check into a seller before arranging to trade or buy from them.
Just because some people don't want to do the legwork? Look into who you want to buy from. Why should the site rules change, just to make it harder for non-chatty people to sell? There's a ton of posts that have no content posted every day, they enhance the fun of the site, but they certainly don't mean the poster is a better person to buy from.
If you have 5000 posts here, I'll STILL look up your info. If you have 0 posts here, I'll do exactly the same thing. No amount of rules for posting ads will stop someone from scamming you if you fail to do your homework.

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Righto! :gj:

Look at me 5,555+ posts in 1 1/2 years. Not many people can do that LOL.

And here I thought I picked a number high enough to be ridiculously high. Silly me!
:P

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

And here I thought I picked a number high enough to be ridiculously high. Silly me!
:P

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I'm trying to cut back! But 10 posts a day just seems like such a small number. :8:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Why should the site rules change, just to make it harder for non-chatty people to sell?

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I am not suggesting that the rules change. I suggesting that the existing rules be enforced... Again, let me point you to the CURRENT rule:

Ball-Pythons.net is here to serve the community of both current and new enthusiasts of herps. Our primary mission is to educate and support those wanting to learn. These free advertising areas are for our contributing members to use and not intended as a free way to run a business.