Is this the real thing?

I've had my BP's for about 6 months, but they have been in my family for nearly 20 years. They are retired and all that is left from my family's former outreach program called T.R.O.P. <Tropical Rainforest Outreach Program>. Out of nowhere, last week they began this behavior ritualisticly, every night. I finally got a pic of it to share and get your advice. I've never seen them behave this way, and my family members who have owned them, never have either. They have never been sexed, but were always thought to be a male and female, hence their name, Rosie and George. Their last feeding was when they started, actually about 2 hours after, and lasted for several hours. I am in no way prepared for little Rosies and Georges. Thank god my Uncle is a Vet, lol

So, my question is, Does this look like a real courtship? Also, how can a snake be sexed?:weirdface



https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0301_thumb.jpg

Here's another pic..

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0302_thumb.jpg

If you do not want babys I would not have kept them together( if you wanted babys or not they still shouldnt be together). Id seperate them now and switch their bedding to aspen or news paper. If she does happen to have eggs, just freeze them and toss them out unless you are 100% prepared for them

yes that is for real.
do you always keep them together?

Yes, they have been together since they were brought home as young-inz

If this is the case, and she does lay, I will remove the clutch and give them to my Uncle to be incubated...then get a larger setup to house the new lil ones...I'm actually kinda excited about it...after 20 years, they lay NOW?!?!

***Correction*** Imma girl:groinkick
I do want them, but am not getting my hopes up, I dont even know if they were really mating, which both of u have failed to mention any answer to my original question. But, like I said, if this is the real thing, of course I'll keep them, just have got to do some re-arranging :D

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Originally Posted by Reptotica26

***Correction*** Imma girl:groinkick
I do want them, but am not getting my hopes up, I dont even know if they were really mating, which both of u have failed to mention any answer to my original question. But, like I said, if this is the real thing, of course I'll keep them, just have got to do some re-arranging :D

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OOPs sorry!!:oops:

You can sex snakes by probing them or popping them, probing them is better with adults. That looks like they are copulating to me!

sorry, I got a little carried away with butters claims:rolleyes:

reptotica i did answer in my first post,check it.oops forgot the sexing part.but they are obviously male and female so i seen no point in answering it,sorry

OOPS, I thought u were saying "Yes that is for real" as in saying u agreed with Bearded:) My Bad:D

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Originally Posted by Reptotica26

OOPS, I thought u were saying "Yes that is for real" as in saying u agreed with Beared:) My Bad:D

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lol,no biggie!

So, how exactly is "probing" done?

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Originally Posted by Reptotica26

OOPS, I thought u were saying "Yes that is for real" as in saying u agreed with Beared:) My Bad:D

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lol,no biggie! and sorry for this turning into something it shouldnt have either.

this would be a ? i cannot answer.i have popped but not probed.

i would take them to a vet to be probed..you can damage them pretty good if you don't know what your doing, same with popping.

i have found that the male's tail is always under the females during courtship, but that's not something to go by...

Am I missing something from this story? Your family has had these animals together for 20 years and this is the first time they have bred? That seems very odd, unless one of them is sterile and that is why they have never produced a clutch before.

Did you change the husbandry since you got them? Maybe this is the first time?

I'd get your uncle who's the vet to probe them for you to sex them.

I would also recommend that you house them in separate enclosures from now on. Ball pythons are solitary and do not desire each other's companionship (except to breed). They aren't "cuddling", they are dominating one another.

But... if they have been housed together for the last 20 years, and both snakes are in good shape and healthy, would you really suggest that she separate them? I fully understand the reasons for separation (poo, pee, health, etc) and all of mine are separated, but, they have been together for 20 years without it being the end of the free world!!!!

Are these snakes always separate in the wild or is it that the gravid females are found alone in dens (understandable for survival of the species...)

Yes, this is the first time they have been observed breeding. They very well could have been doing it for years but no clutch of eggs has ever been found. So Sonya, your stamtement of one of them being sterile is quite possible. I'll take them out to my uncle's clinic to be sexed. In the mean time, could you give me a time line of events starting at copulation. When can u actually tell if she is carrying a clutch, how long before she lays, etc...
Any info/input is much appreciated, and thanx for your post thusfar:)

Seriously butters? are you for real?

McKinsey, I've never read anything about communal dens in ball pythons, but for many snakes the 'cuddling' is often competition for resources, which sometimes will lead to the demise of the smaller animal. Communal dens can be found in snakes, but not often, the notable exceptions being some north american snakes that rely on communal dens to overwinter. I agree they've been fine all along and neither have perished so it's not terribly serious (it doesn't sound like the best situation), except for the possibly unwanted mouths to feed assuming the clutch is viable.

[QUOTE=Reptotica26;874474]

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Its not an animal yet;) And this guy does not sound like he wants/ has the space for the new arrivalsQUOTE]

***Correction*** Imma girl:groinkick
I do want them, but am not getting my hopes up, I dont even know if they were really mating, which both of u have failed to mention any answer to my original question. But, like I said, if this is the real thing, of course I'll keep them, just have got to do some re-arranging :D

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Get a rack system, or individual enclosures.

You will need to separate them out by sex, if the clutch is ever laid, and is viable. You dont want the babies to eventually breed with their siblings.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

Seriously butters? are you for real?

McKinsey, I've never read anything about communal dens in ball pythons, but for many snakes the 'cuddling' is often competition for resources, which sometimes will lead to the demise of the smaller animal. Communal dens can be found in snakes, but not often, the notable exceptions being some north american snakes that rely on communal dens to overwinter. I agree they've been fine all along and neither have perished so it's not terribly serious (it doesn't sound like the best situation), except for the possibly unwanted mouths to feed assuming the clutch is viable.

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Thanks Mike and I totally agree and understand what you've shared. My thought is only that since little is known about these snakes, concrete statements could be subject to revision ;)

Interesting though, I've been all over databases and I really never read anything about these snakes' day to day or behaviors. I have a scientific article that suggests that males, while still being terrestrial, are more arboreal than females, based on the parasites found in the males. I have also read that these snakes do not just live in termite mounds or dens, but also in mangrove swamps.

I simply (and respectfully) offer that there is typically a lot more that we don't know than that which we think we know! :P

You may never have gotten eggs because they could both be males -- yes males will copulate with one another -- it's a dominating thing. Or maybe the female just absorbs her follicles -- they could be having a little recreational boik. Lots of possibilities.

If you do get eggs please don't put all the babies in a "big enclosure" if you aren't prepared to properly keep the hatchlings or find proper homes for them (hard to do with normals) then don't incubate them.

As for the established pair -- I don't see any need to separate them at this point.

To the OP. I think you should separate the parents even though they have been together for 20 years. Even according to the 'my snake loves me' thread, most people agree that there really isn't a 'love' emotion with snakes, therefore separating them probably wouldn't break their hearts.
IF for some reason they do go off feed if separated, by all means put them back together, however, you should get them probed by a HERP vet first. I don't know what your uncle is a vet for, but he could have no clue about reptiles.
If there are eggs, I don't suggest you keep them for a couple of reasons. It is a lot of work for incubation alone, as well as feeding 5-10 mouths weekly. Separate tubs or cages for each ball python are REQUIRED. They can not be housed together. Not to mention, the husbandry has to be very good for babies in order to get them eating properly and so on.
See if they are both males. Or ones a male and female. Either way I suggest separating them, but if they go off feed, I only suggest putting them together if they are both males.

Heres a bit of info on why ball pythons shouldn't be housed together, as well as any snake.
http://pinkladyconstrictors.com/?page_id=10

And here is a wonderful caresheet on ball pythons that I suggest you familiarize yourself on, for future reference.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules....warticle&id=59

Sorry if I came off as rude to you. I did not mean to, I'm very sick with a serious sinus infection right now, but I wish you the best of luck with your situation. As well as a nice welcome to this forum. :gj:

To the OP, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to post in your thread without addressing the original post. I too believe that you should try to separate the snakes, even if they've been together forever. If one or both go off feed, put them back together and no harm done. As for the possible clutch of eggs, if you are not prepared to house and feed 10 baby snakes, you are doing the responsible thing by not allowing them to incubate and become living, breathing, dependent animals. Freezing and disposing of the eggs is the best way to ensure that doesn't happen.

Alternatively, if you find yourself with a gravid female, you could look around for a breeder in your area who may be interested in taking the eggs and incubating them. Just a thought anyway...

But to answer the original post title, it looks like the real deal to me...

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dr del

"you should get them probed by a HERP vet first. I don't know what your uncle is a vet for, but he could have no clue about reptiles."

Here is a link to my uncle's site
http://www.northcountryanimals.com/532541.html

We used to have a male burmese python, who while feeding, swallowed a heating pad. (Don't ask me why it was in there, I was just a kid when it happend, and was not the one caring for it)
All you saw was the end of the cord sticking out of his mouth. Any Vets out there could imagine how hard this removal would be...well he did it, and Bernie lived for many more years. This story actually was published nationally, so some of u may have heard of it. If I ever come across the artical, I'll post it.
So anyway, I think he is quite qualified to do a probing:D

Your uncle seems like a top notch guy and could undoubtedly confirm the sexes of your snakes! I can't wait to hear of the results!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reptotica26

"you should get them probed by a HERP vet first. I don't know what your uncle is a vet for, but he could have no clue about reptiles."

Here is a link to my uncle's site
http://www.northcountryanimals.com/532541.html

We used to have a male burmese python, who while feeding, swallowed a heating pad. (Don't ask me why it was in there, I was just a kid when it happend, and was not the one caring for it)
All you saw was the end of the cord sticking out of his mouth. Any Vets out there could imagine how hard this removal would be...well he did it, and Bernie lived for many more years. This story actually was published nationally, so some of u may have heard of it. If I ever come across the artical, I'll post it.
So anyway, I think he is quite qualified to do a probing:D

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haha, that story was just posted up here a few months ago. It's a small world! ;)

haha, apparently so! I was just searching for the artical online, with no luck, but apparently Alice Coopers snake did the same thing lol