Feeding Problems, Does This Mouse Look Ok?

Hello All,

I have a baby ball python. Right after we bought him he had mites and went to the vet for two weeks. During that time they fed him live mice twice. We have been told that he ate frozen prior to that. Instead of waiting a week and trying it again they went right for live. We strongly prefer to feed him dead mice for a number of reasons and neither of us have the stomach to kill the mouse ourselves. We purchased a bag of 3 adult mice that were frozen. These mice are about 19 grams each and they look too big for our snake but we are not experts. The pet store swears this is what they were feeding it. It is much wider than our snake at any given point on the mouse. Also, I was surprised to find the mice looked as if they were beaten in the head to kill. They are bloody messes and some have their eyes hanging out. Is this typical of frozen mice?

We offered a mouse last week and he had no interest at all; however, he was about to shed. We are going to try it again tonight. Of course we have a feeder box and know to dangle the mouse in front of him a bit. We also know to thaw it of course.

At what point should we consider going to live mice? Does the theory "let him get hungry enough, he'll eat it" apply to a snake? We really really do not want to feed live. My husband is military and leaves for long periods of time and I am not going to feed the snake a live mouse while he is going so we really need to get him to eat this frozen one. :salute:

Any tips or thoughts are so greatly appreciated.

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alot of things can come into play.first of all can you post a pic of his tank/tub?second those mice are not consumable in my opinion.its a shame he is leaving soon because i think you should feed live for at least a month.what are your concerns about feeding live?it is actually more inhumane to kill the mice unless you have a co2 chamber.snakes make quik work of there prey and it is a natural thing.i would suggest live hopper mice or live pinkey rats until he has adapted to his new home and gets used to eating every 7 days,then i would try to find some f/t from a reputable place.

Thank you for your input. To be perfectly honest I just cannot handle the thought of it killing the mouse or hearing the mouse scream. I know it is natural, I just cannot handle it. Also, my sister takes care of all of the snakes at the aquarium she works at (national aquarium, not a fish store) and they only feed frozen. I have been told another concern is injury to the snake. What I have read said that the only people who feed live are the ones who want to watch the snake eat for their own pleasure, I won't be in the room when he eats regardless. I don't know if that last statement is true or not but I have no desire to watch the snake eat. My husband probably wouldn't mind it but he prefers to feed frozen for the safety of the snake.

I purchased these mice at PetCo, I assumed they would have good quality frozen mice. This mouse was clearly smashed in the head to be killed (its eyes are hanging out and it's skill is flat). I had read that the mice should be flash frozen. Beyond the grossness factor I am concerned about contamination.

I want to take proper care of the snake and hope the snake can learn to eat frozen so we can all be happy.

I will get a picture of Nakey (our 2-year-old named him) either in his cage or near somethng that will give you an idea of his size. For now here is one with him on my husband's neck.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...orida040-1.jpg

I second the request for more detailed info about the setup. The only pic of the setup shows that you're using the analog dial type thermometer, and doesn't show anywhere for the snake to curl up, hide, and feel secure.

As for the feeding problems, it could be stress related due to temps, humidity, lack of a secure hide, etc. It could also be stress related to removing the snake from his enclosure and putting him into a separate "feeder box". This is not necessary, and only causes additional stress and increases the chance of refusals or regurgitation. I would suggest trying to feed in the snake's enclosure, in the late evening when they are naturally more alert and active. You can try the tough love method and only offer frozen thawed prey, however, unfortunately for us as keepers, some snakes will never readily take frozen thawed prey. I understand that the frozen thawed route is often cheaper and more convenient for us as owners and keepers of these animals, but ultimately you have to be willing to do what is best for the snake. And if the snake refuses frozen thawed prey, that may indeed mean feeding live prey.

:O
I definitely wouldn't feed my snake those.

There are a LOT of variables that need to be looked at before you even begin to discuss frozen vs. live. The main issue is probably security. A snake will not eat unless they feel 100% secure because they are most vulnerable while digesting. They would rather skip a meal or two to insure their safety, than risk being eaten by something bigger and badder than themselves (you). That being said, it is vital that you first perfect your snake's home.

I'm sure you already know most of this, but I'll post it anyway just in case. Ball pythons need at least two secure hiding spots. If they are forced to sit out in the open, they become nervous. By providing little houses for them, you make them feel safe. You should also try to cover the ground of the tank with foliage so that they are covered wherever they go.

Now, in regards to the feeding box... It is best to allow the snake to eat in its enclosure. If you go to great lengths to make the snake feel secure in its home, why would you take it out and put it into an unknown place and expect it to eat? It may be refusing to eat because it doesn't like being exposed in its feed box. Contrary to popular belief, ball pythons do not become aggressive because they are fed in their enclosure. If you handle the snake before feeding it, then the animal will associate the opening of the tank with it being picked up, not with food being presented, thus forcing it into strike mode. ;)

Also, if you're not heating the tank properly and keeping the humidity high enough, the snake may refuse to eat. Temperatures should be around 92 degrees F on the warm side so that they can digest their meal. If the animal doesn't feel that it can digest, why would it eat? Likewise, you should keep the cool side around 78-80 degrees F, so that it can cool off when it needs to. Humidity should be around 50% which is easy to achieve if you purchase a wide, but shallow bowl. I have the $2 plastic ferret bowls in my cages and they are wide enough to keep the humidity at 60%.

When considering security, you also have to realize that too much interaction from you is seen as a threat to him. If you are constantly looking in on him, handling him, or offering prey more than once a week, then you are probably making him nervous.

I know you would rather not feed live, but if your husbandry is good and the snake still refuses to eat, you may have to offer it live prey to entice it to strike. The mice that you have are no good. I would throw them away and find another source of feeders. They should be clean and dry when you open them. But the idea is to first convince the snake that it wants to eat. He may not want to eat something that is already dead. I have a female that will not eat frozen, no matter what I do. It is your responsibility to see that your snake eats, despite any ethical or moral reserves that you may have. Trust me, I'm a vegetarian and a tree-hugging animal rights person. It took me a while, but I got over it. And snakes really are VERY adept at hunting and killing their prey. Death usually occurs in under 30 seconds. They squeeze so hard that not only do they stop the mouse from breathing, but they also cut off its blood supply. The mouse will lose consciousness and die a quick death. When you purchase frozen mice, they are either placed into the freezer while still alive, thus suffering a long, drawn out and miserable death. Or they are gassed with Co2. This is the same as suffocation. In all honesty, I think that the snake is much more humane than any of our methods. Think about it.

And best of luck with your baby. If you post photos of his enclosure, we may be able to help you out even more.

I took the picture after removing his rock. We did do our homework before making the purchase. He has a rock to curl up in and a generous sized water dish. I keep his temperature between 70 and 80 degrees. His humidity stays between 50 and 60, we're in southern Florida so that is what it is anyway. When he shows the first signs of shedding I keep his humidity between 70 and 80%. He on Sunday (4 days ago) and it was a complete and good shed. We have only had him for 3.5 weeks and of that he spent 2 weeks at the vet being treated for mites. Meaning, we have only attempted 1 feeding at home and it was with a mouse that looked exactly like the one in the photo, maybe a little less blood (it was 3 days before he shed). So I suppose I was premature in saying we have feeding problems.

We are going to toss these mice and go somewhere besides PetCo for a better looking frozen mouse.

I appreciate you all letting me know I am not crazy in thinking that mouse does not look right! Thanks again!

Also, there is no danger of injury to the snake if you are feeding appropriate sized live prey. You wouldn't want to feed your snake (which is just a baby) a large rat. You should look at giving him mouse hoppers most likely, which are practically defenseless. They don't even recognize the snake as a threat because they are so young. I doubt that they have any fear, though since I am not a mouse hopper, I can't say for sure.

MindiBun, you posted as I was writing. Thank you for taking so much time to help. We do handle him every night. He generally wraps himself around my husbands neck while we watch TV.

I am about to feed my family so I will come back to read your post in detail later this evening. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise.

PS...I will post photos of the enclosure tomorrow! Thank you all so much!

First off - let me say thanks to your husband and to you because I'm sure being an Army wife is not easy - :salute:

As for the mice... they look terrible - I can't imagine why they would kill them like that. The pet stores like petco and petsmart usually have low quality rodents that are overpriced, so if you can find another source that would probably be best.

Keep trying with the frozen mice. It sounds like you have only tried once and he was in shed, correct me if I'm wrong. Keep trying - if he had been eating frozen I am sure you can get him back on them. A missed feed or two isn't that big a deal for a snake. If you think the prey size is too big go down a size - if you give a smaller prey item there might be a smaller chance of refusal. Prescenting can also help - heat up the mouse near the snake to get him excited about it. You can also try leaving the mouse outside the hide for awhile and leave him alone - even overnight I believe and check on him in the morning and see if he took it. It sounds like your guy is going through a lot of stress with getting over the mites and going into shed, so give him a little time and double check that your tank settings are all good (check out the stickys!) and I'm sure you will have him eating like a champ!

And don't feel bad about not wanting to feed him live mice - I love my snake and I know he has to feed but I feed frozen too because anything furry and alive comes into my place and it is staying alive. (One of the reasons I waited to get a snake from a place that had them started on frozen).

Best of luck!

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

We did do our homework before making the purchase. He has a rock to curl up in and a generous sized water dish. I keep his temperature between 70 and 80 degrees.

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80 degrees is not hot enough for him. He needs to get his body temp up to 92-92 in order to digest properly and efficiently. I would seriously suggest raising the temperatures on one end of his cage.

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We have only had him for 3.5 weeks and of that he spent 2 weeks at the vet being treated for mites.

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It sounds like he hasn't adjusted to being home yet. I would leave him entirely alone for another week before offering prey. I am afraid that you're overwhelming him. Getting him to feel comfortable is more important than getting food in him right now. Remember, he was probably man handled at the vets to kill the mites. He would have been taken out of his enclosure several times, back and forth, so that they could treat it. Let him just sit and relax for a little while before you offer food again.

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

MindiBun, you posted as I was writing. Thank you for taking so much time to help. We do handle him every night. He generally wraps himself around my husbands neck while we watch TV.

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Exactly what concerns me. You should not be handling this snake at all right now.

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

I took the picture after removing his rock. We did do our homework before making the purchase. He has a rock to curl up in and a generous sized water dish. I keep his temperature between 70 and 80 degrees. His humidity stays between 50 and 60, we're in southern Florida so that is what it is anyway. When he shows the first signs of shedding I keep his humidity between 70 and 80%. He on Sunday (4 days ago) and it was a complete and good shed. We have only had him for 3.5 weeks and of that he spent 2 weeks at the vet being treated for mites. Meaning, we have only attempted 1 feeding at home and it was with a mouse that looked exactly like the one in the photo, maybe a little less blood (it was 3 days before he shed). So I suppose I was premature in saying we have feeding problems.

We are going to toss these mice and go somewhere besides PetCo for a better looking frozen mouse.

I appreciate you all letting me know I am not crazy in thinking that mouse does not look right! Thanks again!

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You need to work on your temps. You should have 92 on the warm side and at least 80s on the cool side. Check the stickies on this site for basic set up! :gj:

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

I took the picture after removing his rock. We did do our homework before making the purchase. He has a rock to curl up in and a generous sized water dish. I keep his temperature between 70 and 80 degrees. His humidity stays between 50 and 60, we're in southern Florida so that is what it is anyway. When he shows the first signs of shedding I keep his humidity between 70 and 80%. He on Sunday (4 days ago) and it was a complete and good shed. We have only had him for 3.5 weeks and of that he spent 2 weeks at the vet being treated for mites. Meaning, we have only attempted 1 feeding at home and it was with a mouse that looked exactly like the one in the photo, maybe a little less blood (it was 3 days before he shed). So I suppose I was premature in saying we have feeding problems.

We are going to toss these mice and go somewhere besides PetCo for a better looking frozen mouse.

I appreciate you all letting me know I am not crazy in thinking that mouse does not look right! Thanks again!

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temps at 70 to 80 are not wat your looking for.70 is way too cold and 80 should be the cool side temp.

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

Thank you for your input. To be perfectly honest I just cannot handle the thought of it killing the mouse or hearing the mouse scream. I know it is natural, I just cannot handle it.

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Ok, you replied before I finished typing my response. I understand not wanting to feel like you were party to the death of another living creature. Unfortunately, this is the circle of life and the snake has to eat, and for that to happen, a mouse has to die. Snakes are naturally VERY efficient predators, and will dispatch the mouse much more efficiently than we as humans could. Even if you're feeding frozen thawed, it was a living and breathing mouse who gave its life to feed your snake. And FYI, the mouse doesn't "scream". You may hear a quick, faint squeak, but no ear piercing, blood curdling "scream".

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

I have been told another concern is injury to the snake.

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When feeding live, doing so responsibly is the key. Do not leave a live prey item in the enclosure unattended. Most of the horror stories you hear are because someone dropped a live (and probably hungry) rat in the tank and left it for a day or two or a week.

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

What I have read said that the only people who feed live are the ones who want to watch the snake eat for their own pleasure, I won't be in the room when he eats regardless.

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I don't know where you read that, but that statement is just ignorant and uneducated. I feed live prey to my snake because it's what is natural to her, and she thrives on live prey, never refusing a meal. Sure, the first time I watched a feeding, there was a certain "cool" factor, but that's not why I feed live, nor do I think a blanket statement like that applies to even 1% of the live-feeding members of this site. (Disclaimer: 97% of statistics are made up on the spot, including these)

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

I purchased these mice at PetCo, I assumed they would have good quality frozen mice. This mouse was clearly smashed in the head to be killed (its eyes are hanging out and it's skill is flat). I had read that the mice should be flash frozen. Beyond the grossness factor I am concerned about contamination.

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I don't have experience with frozen thawed mice, but from the pic you posted, I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding that to my snake. It's possible that the mouse was euthanized using CO2, then the head crush was after the fact.

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

I want to take proper care of the snake and hope the snake can learn to eat frozen so we can all be happy.

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Understandably, you want to do what's best for the snake. The unfortunate reality is that sometimes what is best for the snake is not what is most comfortable for us as keepers.

And please do not take offense to anything in my post, including this last statement.

If you are not prepared to do what may be necessary to fulfill the snake's needs, which may include supervised live feedings, then possibly a snake is not the right pet for you. If you choose to keep the snake as a pet, but outright refuse to feed live prey and would sooner allow the snake to go unfed for months at a time, you should step back and reevaluate this situation...

Again, not trying to offend at all, so please take this post as it was intended, to help.

Ok, I'm at work which is why I'm slow posting... Something that has been mentioned several times are the temperatures. I am assuming you are giving the temps as measured by the analog dial-type thermometer mounted halfway up the side of the tank. First, these thermometers are notoriously inaccurate. Second, you want to measure the temperature at the surface of the substrate where the snake will spend most of its time. You can pick up a digital thermometer/hygrometer combo with a probe sensor for around $13 at your local Walmart or home and garden store. I'm guessing that the temps between 70 and 80 are your ambient air temps, and that you do not currently have a measurement of the surface temps that your bp is really being exposed to.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

If you are not prepared to do what may be necessary to fulfill the snake's needs, which may include supervised live feedings, then possibly a snake is not the right pet for you. If you choose to keep the snake as a pet, but outright refuse to feed live prey and would sooner allow the snake to go unfed for months at a time, you should step back and reevaluate this situation...

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That was a good point that I think I didn't make in my statement - I said that I got a snake that eats frozen because I don't want to have to feed live - but if Stan started refusing frozen and had to eat live - I wouldn't be happy about it but he would get what he needs to thrive. When you get a pet you promise to take the best care of it that you can, even if its inconvenient.

Not trying to offend you, just trying to help!

Thank you all for your help. THe poster who thought I might let the snake starve over my feeding preference, well that is just offensive. The pet was purchased for my husband and our children, I made it clear in the begining I want little to do with it. I am the one doing the research because my husband doesn't have time. Obviously if it came down to the animal's well being or feeding a live mouse and he was not at home I would suck it up and do it.

I have done a lot of reading about the temps and obviously I grossly misunderstood something. Today he (and we actually do not know gender) is laying under his heat lamp, this is the first day he has done that but I realize this is an indicator that he is not warm enough. He feels very cold each time we touch him. I will adjust this immediately. I will also buy a better thermometer tomorrow. It sounds like something other than my cheapy heat lamps would be better.

Thank you all so much. I have a feeling the temperature is playing a big factor in it. The mouse is also at least 3 times the size of his head, I am guessing it is not the right size.

Thanks again!!

Hey - instead of a heat lamp you are probably going to want to get an under tank heater - ball pythons need belly heat to help them digest. You can get these at the pet store for not too much - you just need to get a thermostat or at least a dimmer to go with it because the temps can get too hot with it and burn your snake.

You're on a good path especially with getting help from the people on here, they are a great help!

I would seriously consider revamping your entire husbandry. The enclosure is much too big, temperatures are too low and the snake is extremely stressed out. Yes, they will starve themselves to death if their environment is not correct and they don't feel secure(which he doesn't right now).

How I keep new babies is this:

-1 6qt plastic sterilite tub w/lid
-newspaper substrate(full sheet folded in half, then folded in half again)
-1 4" plastic plant saucer(holds water underneath a planter)
-1 AcuRite DIGITAL thermometer/hygrometer unit(WalMart)
-3-4" diameter water bowl
-Hobby Soldering iron(melting holes in the tub)
-undertank heater or a wired piece of flexwatt
-Thermostat or Dimmer(Johnson Controls/Ranco or proportional for thermostat, and Lutron Credenza brand for dimmer)

Set up the tub like so:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...PICT0008-3.jpg

Size of snake in the tub(year ago):
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...PICT0009-2.jpg
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After you move him, you NEED to NOT touch him for at least 2 weeks. He needs to settle in and feel safe.

After 2 weeks, offer a LIVE small adult mouse after you have pre-scented the room(stick mouse in cage next to snake's tub for 30 minutes in a dark room). Do not touch the snake, just open the lid, drop the mouse in and close the lid. Keep the room DARK, use a flashlight if you need to.

Wait for 10-15 minutes, don't worry the mouse is unable to hurt your snake if the mouse is well fed and hydrated(and you don't leave it in there for 5 days obviously). If the snake doesn't eat, remove the mouse, close the tub and wait another week. Repeat the same procedure. NO handling at all in between.

DO NOT handle him at all until he's had a good 4-5 consecutive meals. You're going to have him for another 40 years, you have time :)

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

Today he (and we actually do not know gender) is laying under his heat lamp, this is the first day he has done that but I realize this is an indicator that he is not warm enough.

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Yeah you need better thermometers. You will probably also need under tank heaters. Read up on them before installing them, don't stick them to the underside of the tank with the adhesive that comes with them.

Plus with a UTH you will also need something to regulate the heat so you don't cook your snake. You get a zoomed thermostat online for about $24 plus shipping. They can be seriously burned if the UTH is too hot, they don't sense heat/burning the way we do.

It is a shame that you are "not into the snake" but you are the one that has to do all of this. It should be a labor of love.

At the moment, I have fifty ball pythons. I feed all of them live prey items. I personally do not watch any of them eat. I prescent the room, put all of the rats in, turn off the lights, and come back in about 45 min. The reason I feed live, is becasue I get a much better feed ratio than feeding frozen / thawed (f/t.) Many of my ball pythons will not take f/t. I have tried, and was throwing away a lot of rats that my snakes would not eat. I have never had any problems with live prey hurting my snakes.

If you want to feed f/t, then keep trying. If you snake will not eat /t then I highly recommend feeding live.

Hope this helps.

You're going to get a LOT of posts and advice here and it's going to be overwhelming to you. I'd suggest a priorities list (I'm big on list making LOL). Figure out from what people tell you what are the priorities for this new snake.

First thing you need to understand is the unwillingness to eat isn't truly the problem, it's a consequence of other problems or issues for this snake. Focusing on adjusting the causes, instead of the effect i.e. refusal to eat, will help you wade through a lot of information coming at you quickly.

For me, when I deal with any young snake that is refusing I look first to it's housing. The priorities for me would be asking myself these questions....

- is the enclosure to large and therefore causing stress to a shy species that likes to hide out a lot
- is the enclosure providing the proper temperature gradient (90 degrees warm side, 80 degrees cool side, 24/7, no night drops, no instability with big temp swings)
- is the enclosure providing the proper humidity for this species (about 50 to 60%)
- is the enclosure in a quiet place in my home out of the busy family rooms with a lot of traffic and vibrations
- am I providing two hides, barely bigger than this snake is coiled up so the snake has appropriate places to retreat into and to hunt from (these are ambush, not active, predators)
- am I providing clean water and a snake safe bedding in the enclosure

Then I'd look at the family's interactions with this snake and ask myself this....

- are we handling this stressed baby too much
- are the kids bugging around it's enclosure (standing over a snake constantly puts you in the predator position and freaks out little snakes who think you now maybe are going to eat them)

Lastly, I'd look at the snake's overall health issues and ask myself these things...

- was this snake purchased from a source that sells or produces healthy, parasite/disease free snakes
- what history do I really have on this snake as far as it's health, how old it is, what it's feeding history has been before I purchased it

Once I have clear answers to those questions, then I generally have a clearer grasp on the most important issues to address first and then work my way the solutions. For now the priority is setting down a feeding pattern for the snake, not handling, not much else really - just getting it eating regularily for you. Once it's doing that, then handling and more interaction with the family will come along nicely. :)

Ok I got a better thermo. Temps are great because mine was on the cool side, it is around 90 on the hot side. Humidity is perfect, it's hard to mess up the humidity in southern Florida. I am not going to move him to a smaller tank, he was in a larger tank in the store by himself and was eating every 7 days. I have no doubt he would eat right now if I offered live.

As for the last post, I bought him at PetCo at the recommendation of two friends who own adult (very healthy) snakes. I will NEVER buy from them again. He had mites 24 hours after I got him home, we treated at home and that didn't work, he ended up having to stay at the vet for two weeks. They said they had been treating him for mites prior to sale, they did not tell us that when we bought him.

I do have his feeding history, assuming they were honest and he did poop a few days later and he just had a good clean shed so I am going to assume that part is ok.

He is NOT refusing to eat. He will eat anytime he is offered a live mouse. He ate frozen at the store up until the point he had mites then he refused frozen but at live just fine. They fed him twice while he was with the vet office at PetCo, I was told the mite treatment is highly stressful and this is not unusual. The problem is I want him to eat frozen.

My plan is to get a smaller frozen mouse, this mouse weighs 22 grams. I have read he should eat a hopper that would be around 10 grams. I will be going to a reptile store later today and getting him an appropriately sized frozen mouse. If that doesn't work we will go to live. The snake might be finding a new home when my husband goes to Iraq if he has to eat live, we'll see.

At what point can you handle them daily? Our friends who have ball pythons have them out every night. I see no point in even having him if we can't handle him. If he does eat a live mouse (or even a better sized frozen) I will assume he is just fine with being handled. The kids do stand around his aquarium (the 2 and 4 year old do at least) but I can't see a way of stopping that. I never thought of it as a problem because we have a friend who has 4-5 snakes and she has her kids all over those snakes.

I guess I am off to mouse shop. On a side note, I really hate that my family purchased this animal that I want little to do with and you can see who is stuck doing the dirty work! LOL! :-(

This is is home and then one of him with the mouse (f/t) we offered last night, it just looks way too big to me. The plantation shudder that is open behind his tank is not normally open, I opened it only for better light for the photo. He is by his water dish in this picture, yesterday is the first day he has ever done that. The last one is of him in his feeding tank with the mouse I talked about yesterday. I swear to God the snake gave me an evil glare when we offered this dead mouse. He actually slithered right over as if to let us know just how unacceptalbe this dead mouse was.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...orida137-1.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...Florida138.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...Florida140.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...Florida142.jpg

I am so sorry that you are going through this situation. It is a real drag taking care of an animal that you really don't seem to feel any affinity toward.

SatanicIntention (Becky) is a very respected member on this forum and is also a CVT and really knows her stuff when it comes to medications and getting stubborn feeders to eat. To discard her advice summarily might be a little short-sighted on your part.

Your snake seems very stressed out. If you absolutely refuse to put him into a different enclosure, perhaps you might entertain the notion of altering his current one. I suggest covering the sides and back of his tank with dark paper or dark material of some sort; this will help the snake to feel more secure. I also suggest adding another hide so that the snake has a cool side hide and a warm side hide.

As for feeding, I would suggest that you only try once every 7 days and that you try to feed him in his own enclosure. At this point, it is my feeling that you are only compounding the stress he is feeling by moving him to another enclosure. Also, are you heating the mouse up really well? This is a very important step. I thaw rodents all day long and then use a blow dryer to heat them immediately prior to offering it to the snake. Lastly, while I can commiserate regarding your feelings of feeding live, this is a snake after all! However, once your guy settles in to his new digs and eats consistently on live, you could then attempt to switch him over to f/t. Most snakes make the switch and some never do; you'll just never know until he de-stresses, eats consistently on live, and then you do the switch.

As for your eating and handling stance- assume nothing and learn!! Because he is eating does not mean he is ready to be the family dog!! Handling too early in the de-stress mode could cause him to go off-feed again.

I strongly urge you to you let go of all pre-conceived notions you might have, all stances that you might feel compelled to take, all examples of what your friends' snakes are doing, and get your own snake settled in and then get to know your own snake. This takes time.

Good luck. Take care.

I have to agree with this statement: "I strongly urge you to you let go of all pre-conceived notions you might have, all stances that you might feel compelled to take, all examples of what your friends' snakes are doing, and get your own snake settled in and then get to know your own snake. "

I don't think it is at all fair to this animal that you are unwilling to change your mindsets and do what is best for him. You said, "The problem is that I want him to eat frozen." That's not a problem to him. It's only a problem because you're MAKING it a problem. And you "don't see any way to keep the kids away from the tank"? Lock the door to the room or something. I'd suggest that you take whatever steps are necessary in order to keep your animal healthy and happy.

I'm sorry to come off as a little aggressive this time, but it seems to me that you've only been taking the responses half to heart. Everyone here knows what they are doing, and you should stop talking about how your friends do it and consider the possibility that your friends are ALSO WRONG. The people here have been doing this for a LONG time. Please choose to listen to them over your pride, and if you cannot care for this snake properly, then please find it another home. Hopefully with someone who knows what they are doing...

Again, please don't take offense to this. It's just that I don't think you are really considering everything that's been said, and it's very frustrating to me when I am one of the members that has taken up quite a bit of time posting long, explanatory responses to your questions, only to have them ignored.

Well. I came here for advice to pass on to the person caring for the snake. So many people around here just take any reptile and toss it out in the Keye's (thus the problem with wild burms here) so I do not appreciate being told I am not being open minded and am not concerned about the animal. Were I not concerend about the animal I would not have spent my morning looking for a place that sales mice in my area. I want nothing to do with this animal but I am attempting to feed it and care for it because I am the only adult who is home more than 6 hours a day and has time to do any research on the matter.

I certainly will not be back here.

As stated several times in this thread, we are not here trying to offend you. We are here trying to help you, and give you the knowledge to best provide for the animal whose life now rests in your hands. I believe from reading your posts that you have no interest in taking care of the animal's very specific needs, nor is anyone else in the household willing and able to do so. If that is in fact the case, the right thing to do would be to find someone who is prepared to give the animal what it deserves, which is a keeper who truly cares for it enough to do whatever it takes to fulfill the snakes needs.

This is not anything personal against you, so please do not take it as such. We here at bp.net are all animal lovers and want to be sure that every animal is given the best care possible. It just sounds like there was little to no research done on the needs and the proper care of this animal before it was purchased. Now that you know what is involved, don't you agree that it may be best to find someone willing and able to provide proper care for it?

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I want nothing to do with this animal but I am attempting to feed it and care for it because I am the only adult who is home more than 6 hours a day and has time to do any research on the matter.

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Then your family should not have purchased this pet. End of story.

I'm not usually this rude or crass, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that your home is probably not the best environment for this snake, and that you have no intention of admitting that or remedying it. If you choose to keep the snake and care for it properly by listening to the advice of the members here, then that is WONDERFUL. However, if you cannot swallow your pride and REALLY listen to what we are telling you, then I suggest you look for a good home for this animal. Please don't let the snake suffer because we've offended you (which was never the original intention).

shes gone,let it go

My response was in no way intended to push you (the OP) over the edge... :(
I am so very sorry if I offended you in any way; I was trying really hard to be carefully thoughtful and helpful :oops:

i dont think it was you mac

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Originally Posted by Butters420

i dont think it was you mac

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Thanks for the vote of confidence darlin' :)

no problem!:gj: and i hope you dont mind me calling you mac,lol

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Originally Posted by Butters420

no problem!:gj: and i hope you dont mind me calling you mac,lol

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Some friends do, so no problem. Family and others call me Kes :rolleyes:

hint hint,lol ok kes

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Originally Posted by Butters420

hint hint,lol ok kes

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Thanks for hearing :)

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Originally Posted by starmom

My response was in no way intended to push you (the OP) over the edge... :(
I am so very sorry if I offended you in any way; I was trying really hard to be carefully thoughtful and helpful :oops:

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It wasn't you - you didn't say anything that different than what others were saying and it was pretty clear to EVERYONE that she was taking advice from a good experienced source and dismissing it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink... And I'm sure you expressed it much nicer than some would have. You did good!

"Some" being me. -lol- I really lost my temper on this one, and I have to apologize for it. I said in my post that I'm not usually rude and crass - and I'm not. But it was just so frustrating and I'd already had a bad day...

Though I shouldn't have let that get in the way.

So, I sincerely apologize to you, ArmyWife, for losing my cool. However, I do have to admit that my opinions still stand. :/

Hey! You can lead a horse to water... Lets hope the best for both parties involved with this animal. The owners and friends that recommended a ball python....

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Originally Posted by ArmyWife98

Well. I came here for advice to pass on to the person caring for the snake. So many people around here just take any reptile and toss it out in the Keye's (thus the problem with wild burms here) so I do not appreciate being told I am not being open minded and am not concerned about the animal. Were I not concerend about the animal I would not have spent my morning looking for a place that sales mice in my area. I want nothing to do with this animal but I am attempting to feed it and care for it because I am the only adult who is home more than 6 hours a day and has time to do any research on the matter.

I certainly will not be back here.

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I am sorry to say this, I just skipped the rest of the posts after reading this, you probably don't need to have this snake.
I am not trying to be rude condescending or any thing else.

This is just not fair. It is not fair to you at all in any way shape or form I am very sorry that you have to deal with this. I know you said you would not be back and you should come back these people collectively know EVERY THING about snakes.

This is very very very unfair to the snake. If it is not happy then why have it. Would you keep a dog if it just whined all the time because it wanted something that you could not provide. Just because the snake is not vocal does not mean that it does not feel. You will end up with a snake that no one can handle .

This is not fair to your children they obviously like the snake if they are looking at it all the time and they will want to handle it but they will not be able to if the snake is not happy.

I don't believe that your husband should have gotten a pet that he can not take care of. Don't get me wrong I am very proud of my country and very very grateful for those who serve this country. My father and Aunt were in the army a lot of the family friends were army. But if he will not be there to care for it then he should not have asked you to do something that you do not feel comfortable with.

Like I said I am sorry for you, your children, your husband, and your snake. This is fair to no one in this situation. You should not have to deal with the embarrassment (if that is the adequate description) of having to ask questions about some thing you only care about because it is an animal in your care.

Please do not take offense to anything said here. BPnet is THE BEST SOURCE I HAVE FOUND FOR INFORMATION. These people are not here to belittle you or make you feel bad.

I think it would be best from what I know of the situation to give the snake to some one who wants to care for it and will love it. that is what this is all about the love of the animals and if you are not in it for the love of it then cut your losses and count it as a lesson.

like I said I am not trying to offend please please take this advice to heart I am sure I am not the only one that feels like this.

and please tell you husband and your family thank you for serving this country. It is not only him making the sacrifice it is all of you and for that I am very grateful. :salute: