Question on Pewters

Ok so after seeing some of the pictures of pewters/sterlings/silver bullets that have been floating around lately I'm totally going to be trying for some in a couple years. I had a couple of questions however. Is it true that you can make pewters from pastel X black pastel or is it only pastel x cinny? I can't really remember where I heard or read that black pastel would work (and I'm still kind of shaky on my genetics) but isn't that pretty close to a cinny at any rate? I only ask because at the last show I went to there was a table that had "black pastels" and cinnys right next to each other and I could hardly tell the difference but the black pastels were like $100 cheaper than the cinnies.

So sorry for another noob post lol :please: but I just love the looks of these snakes and would love to make some myself someday ;D

Yup, a pastel crossed with a black pastel or a cinny will make pewters. The only difference is the price and looks.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Yup, a pastel crossed with a black pastel or a cinny will make pewters. The only difference is the price and looks.

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Cool cool, thanks! Now I know what to look for at the show comin up in October :D

A Black Pastel and Pastel mix is typically called a Black Pewter, mostly to signify which line was used to create the animal. However, after you look at enough of them, you will notice that there is a difference in the Pewters made using Black Pastels and those made with Cinnys (you will also be able to distinguish the Black Pastel from the Cinny after training your eye). I wish I could say one was better than the other, but I like them both. I currently do not have any Black Pastel stock, but hope to change that in a couple months.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

A Black Pastel and Pastel mix is typically called a Black Pewter, mostly to signify which line was used to create the animal. However, after you look at enough of them, you will notice that there is a difference in the Pewters made using Black Pastels and those made with Cinnys (you will also be able to distinguish the Black Pastel from the Cinny after training your eye). I wish I could say one was better than the other, but I like them both. I currently do not have any Black Pastel stock, but hope to change that in a couple months.

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Hmmmm, do you know by any chance which breeders are workin on black pewters? I'd like to see what the differences are between the two. I'm sure if I had time I could look through all the old posts and find pictures but I'm at work lol. I do generally like the way the black pastels look on their own and I know of some of the discernable (sp?) differences between the two but if you stand a couple feet away from a cinny and a black pastel you really can't see much difference (at least the ones which I have seen). I am leaning towards getting a female cinny to pair with my pastel male in a year or two and if things work out right breeding wise I can hold back a male pewter to breed back to her a year or maybe two after to try for sterlings.

Next World Exotics has pictures of some black pewters in the for sale section of this site.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Next World Exotics has pictures of some black pewters in the for sale section of this site.

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I looked through there but I didn't see any specifically listed as "black pewters" I saw the black pastel they had up for sale. Definitely a nice looking morph but I'm still leaning more towards the cinnie for this project :D

Here you go :)

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...89&postcount=2

WOAH....... Just when I think I've got it all figured out NWE has to come along with this

http://www.nextworldexotics.com/imag...tch208n12d.jpg


GRRRRrrrrr...... well I could always get both......... dang it all..... :taz:

I wonder how they hold up as they get older, I know that normal pewters do brown out quite a bit but shouldn't the black pastel influence cause it to be a much darker shade? Now I've really got some thinking to do. I've only got one open tub in my rack right now so if I did both I'd have to set something else up (or just bite the bullet and get another rack since I know I'm gonna need it soon anyways)

Thanks alot lol!

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

I am leaning towards getting a female cinny to pair with my pastel male in a year or two and if things work out right breeding wise I can hold back a male pewter to breed back to her a year or maybe two after to try for sterlings.

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Just remember that if you pair your Pewter male back to your Cinny girl, you will not get Sterlings, but rather you will get Silver Bullets (if you're lucky). Also, you may want to get a Cinny and make Pewters, and also get some Black Pastels to mix in with the Cinnys. Cinnys and Black Pastels are compatible and will produce an all black snake when bred together. Just some more food for thought to help make your decision even harder (sorry for that).

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Cinnys and Black Pastels are compatible and will produce an all black snake when bred together. Just some more food for thought to help make your decision even harder (sorry for that).

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Wow this is just information overload lol. Looks like I'm getting a new rack sooner than I thought :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I love the super cinnies....... would definitely love to have one of my own someday.......

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Just remember that if you pair your Pewter male back to your Cinny girl, you will not get Sterlings, but rather you will get Silver Bullets (if you're lucky). Also, you may want to get a Cinny and make Pewters, and also get some Black Pastels to mix in with the Cinnys. Cinnys and Black Pastels are compatible and will produce an all black snake when bred together. Just some more food for thought to help make your decision even harder (sorry for that).

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Does black pastel x cinny have any platypus mouth issues? I don't think I've seen a picture of a super using the two different lines.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Does black pastel x cinny have any platypus mouth issues? I don't think I've seen a picture of a super using the two different lines.

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My understanding was that the platypus mouth was being seen more in the 2nd or 3rd generations of the cinny x pastel lines but I could be wrong on that. I haven't heard or seen anything in regards to black pastel X cinny having genetic problems.

These were all made with Graziani line Pastels and Cinnamons.

First one up is a Pewter (Pastel / Cinnamon).

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...st08_1_700.jpg

The next one is a Sterling (Super Pastel / Cinnamon).

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...ast07_2bpn.jpg

The next picture is a Silver Bullet (Super Cinnamon / Pastel) as a hatchling.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/silbul08_1rdr2.jpg

This one is a Silver Bullet (Super Cinnamon / Pastel) as an Adult.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...08_1_700_2.jpg

As you can see there is no problem with the nose on this one. I think the problem is mostly with the Black Pastels.:gj:

Wow Albey those are amazing looking animals! And the adult silver bullet is still just plain smokin looking! Are those all your snakes? :gj::gj: Thanks so much, that answers a lot of my questions but kind of gives me some other ones. I know these might be kind of dumb/obvious but:
#1 Pewter I understand
#2 Sterling could be achieved by pewter X pastel? Or by super pastel X cinny?
#3 Silver bullet (just incredible BTW) could be achieved by either pewter X cinny or super cinny X pastel?
Am I totally off on my assesment on that or am I starting to learn a little ;) Thanks again!

Albey, why the need to knock down Black Pastels everytime the subject comes up? No doubt, Cinnamon make awesome combos as clearly demonstrated with your animals.

Black Pastels are gaining in popularity and there many different strains out there, some resembling Cinnamons more then others.

Black Pastel make equaly interesting combos;

Hypo Black Pastel
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...FemalePic3.jpg

Cinnmon G-Stripe
http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/09/04/97/63/cinnam10.jpg

Albino Super Black Pastel
http://www.gulfcoastreptiles.com/pic...l_2%20copy.jpg

Albino Black Pastel
http://www.gulfcoastreptiles.com/pic...astel08152.jpg

Lesser Black Pastel
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...1/843e66bc.jpg

As for the nose issue, it does not prevent them from thriving, does it? Should they've culled the first English Bulldogs because of their nose issue?

Why the need to knock down other projects people work with? I sure hope not for the benefit of your own Cinnamon projects!

Thanks for all the pics guys. Those are awesome snakes!

Don't even get me started on the english bulldog question.

OK another quick question: Pewter bee????? Has it/Can it be done? I think that just made top of my list of must dos before I die lol.

I don't know Albey from a hole in the wall but I really don't see him knocking down anyone else's projects. He simply answered my question; black pastel supers do have an abnormal nose from what pictures I have seen. You may consider it inconsequential and other people may view it as a deformity; but that is each individuals opinion.

Without a doubt black pastels make some amazing combo's but the abnormal nose in the super is also true.

Albey produces some amazing animals; I doubt he would need to succumb to bashing other peoples projects to promote his own.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I don't know Albey from a hole in the wall but I really don't see him bashing anyone else's projects. He simply answered my question; black pastel supers do have an abnormal nose from what pictures I have seen. You may consider it inconsequential and other people may view it as a deformity; but that is each individuals opinion.

Without a doubt black pastels make some amazing combo's but the abnormal nose in the super is also true.

Albey produces some amazing animals; I doubt he would need to succumb to bashing other peoples projects to promote his own.

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I agree, I only started this post to try and find the different ways to get a pewter not to have people bashing other breeders because they chose to do things differently. I hadn't even heard of the "platypus nose" until I read some of Albys posts where he said that he was glad he didn't have that problem.
I would like to know if that problem prevents them from eating or causes other issues for the individual snake. Maybe it's just like the "wobble" in spiders where it's an undesireable but not necessarily life threatening genetic anomaly but it's not cause to bash someone else because they don't have that problem.

Pewter Bee has been done. I think there were several hatched this season.....but I can't remember who hatched them.

Here is my Pewter female at 1000 grams.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ns/pewter1.jpg

Although she has become a little darker since breeding, she is still lighter than most Black Pewters I've seen.

Here is her recent clutch that hatched. They are some of the nicest Pewters I've seen, and I think it has to do with the female's degree of darkness as well. 3 Pewters, 1 Pastel, and 1 normal.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s/DSCF8259.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s/DSCF8248.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s/DSCF8257.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s/DSCF8247.jpg

These have so much potential. All sibs are 100% het for pied. Imagine a Sterling Pied! Everyone needs a Pewter.....or 10.

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Originally Posted by the odds god

Albey, why the need to knock down Black Pastels everytime the subject comes up? No doubt, Cinnamon make awesome combos as clearly demonstrated with your animals.

Black Pastels are gaining in popularity and there many different strains out there, some resembling Cinnamons more then others.

Black Pastel make equaly interesting combos;



As for the nose issue, it does not prevent them from thriving, does it? Should they've culled the first English Bulldogs because of their nose issue?

Why the need to knock down other projects people work with? I sure hope not for the benefit of your own Cinnamon projects!

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I am not actually putting them down jut promoting what I like better. You are right though; it is time for me to give it a rest. I do have some good reasons for doing it though. The reason I got into the Cinnamons in the first place was because I saw the first Pewter that Graziani produced at the National Reptile Breeders Expo that year. I was knocked out by it. I purchased a Cinnamon from him about a month later. Than I started seeing different breeders on the Forums saying thing like “Yea Cinnamons are nice looking but the Black Pastel’s make better Pewters” and such. I just didn’t see it and I never would have gotten into them if Black Pastels were the only choice. When I produced my first Pewters I made a point of posting picture of it and making sure people knew it was produced with a Cinnamon. Then another thing happened that knocked Cinnamons down a notch. Marc Mandic thought he had produced a Cinnamon version of the Silver Streak that was nowhere near as nice as the Black Pastel version. It ended up he was wrong about it when he produced a real one later on that same year but the damage had been done. I have been spreading the gospel about Cinnamons with my Pewters, Sterling Pastels, and my Silver Bullet ever since. It is funny that you say “Black Pastels are gaining in popularity” when I have always felt that it was the other way around that the Cinnamons are finally starting to gain in popularity. LOL

As far as the nose thing goes, I have seen Super Black Pastels that didn’t have it either so it probably isn’t going to be an issue for either of them soon.

By the way, those are some killer combos that you posted. I sure wish I had those. :gj:

I personally love them both, I just happen to have three black pastels. I like how it mixes with the lesser so that is what I am shooting for( and super blacks) But ive seen super ugly blacks, and super ugly cinnys. You should not judge the snakes by a few examples you see every now and then, because both have their highs and lows. If you get one just find that most appealing one to you!

From what I have learned the snout problem comes from inbreeding the same line when making a super cinny(wether it be black pastel or cinny).
I think making pewters first would help, if it is fact from inbreeding, because of the addition of pastel genetics.

I myself own cinny and black pastels because I feel the are both great animals with each their own qualities. I plan on making pewters with both and supers from the combos in order to aviod any snout/inbreeding problems.

I think it is personel preferance.

Great pics guys thanks for sharing:gj:

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am not actually putting them down jut promoting what I like better. You are right though; it is time for me to give it a rest.

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NO! lol C'mon man you're a champion of a morph that you really like! I wouldn't even be thinking about pewters except that I saw the ones you posted that are absolutely beautiful! I think it's important that people be passionate about the snakes and colors and morphs that they own and you show that! Who cares if some people think you're putting down "their morphs" it's all give and take, some might look better to some people and some look better to other people! Otherwise we'd all have either normals or pastels and no one would ever have bothered to look for anything else. So in short I hope you keep on fighting for the cinnamon lol you make beautiful animals and I cannot stop looking at your pictures.

BTW the black pastel pictures are awesome too but it's just not really the look I want in my collection. I'm not saying anything against them they're just not for me! I'm going Cinny lol