Sick Rats

Monk, my first rat, is sick. I was starting to clean cages today and found him quite ill. He was sharing a cage with his son, Solja, and Solja seems fine. Monk is thinner than normal and he just seems scraggly. With all the stress in the house lately (roommate issues) I haven't been paying a lot of attention to the rats. Go in, feed and water, get out and go to bed. I finally had a day to myself today that I could get down and clean cages and handle everyone. I have removed him from the cage for now. I have put him in a small bucket (I don't have any extra cages and he's making no effort to climb out) and have him next to me as I type. He has no interest in water, so I'm giving him water by dropper/syringe type thing. He is also eating on his own. I have given him lab block, puffed rice, cornflakes, and oats to munch on.

So a short list of his symptoms:
- head tilt
- loss of balance
- thin
- uninterested in water

We also have another rat that we really don't know what to do with. He was housed with Solja weeks ago and started to show signs of getting sick (sneezing) so we moved him to his own enclosure to see if he could get over it by himself. He got over his cold (stopped sneezing) but now he has gone crazy.

List of symptoms:
- waving his head around
- acting jittery (like he's hopped up on caffeine)

Any thoughts? I can't get Monk to the vet today (closed) but I'm going to try and get him an appointment tomorrow if I can. I'm going to see if he shows any improvement over the night as I am going to stay up with him and be his "nurse". I think the head tilt probably signals a need for the vet.

The other rat was going to be used as a breeder but he is obviously a very very sick rat. I have no interest in keeping him as a breeder and I am not attached to him at all. He was actually bought as a feeder but we had bought one too many and we kept him. I do not feel comfortable feeding him to a snake since I do not feed sick animals to my snakes.

What type of substrate are you using?

Woodpellet bedding with a layer of aspen on top. All rats are on this bedding. I can give you details on the setups if you think its enviromental.

Sounds like a myco outbreak that has advanced to the point of severe wry neck (that's the head tilt and is basically a severe ear infection). This rat that you brought in and put with one of your males was sick, that other male got exposed. Then you pulled the sick one and put the exposed one in with the other male which is now sick. That combined with you perhaps being stressed and not around them a lot may have allowed their enclosure to get a bit out of hand which makes this condition worse.

All rats carry mycoplasmosis but under stress and exposed to the germs of this sick new rat, it sounds like it's broken out in the active stage. Wry neck is not a good sign.

I'd suggest you read about it here....

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/myco.htm

It's just a suggestion but perhaps in future when you bring in pet store feeder rats and you don't use them right away, that you don't put them into your breeder group until you make sure they are not bringing in diseases with them from the pet store.

We are not bringing in any new rats until this is figured out. I just picked up Monk and he has another symptom that I just noticed. He has hair loss on one of his testicles. I was just reading an article about myco when I clicked on this thread to check the response.

It definitely sounds like myco. According to the article, it also causes low litter sizes when they breed. His last fathered litter was only 6 and they all died at 2 weeks.

Is there anything I can do for him? And does the other male have it? What should I do for the colony? The other rats seem fine. I have All the females in other cages but their cages are in close proximity to Monk's cage. It says myco is highly contagious. Will all the rats have it?

It's pretty safe to say that if he has head tilt which like Jo has pointed out can accompany myco flare ups, he is really sick and will not be able to fully recover without anti-biotics from a Vet.

Head tilt is not always from a Myco outbreak. Myco is usually accompanied by hard breathing, gurgle noises in sinuses and possibly lungs/ URI.

If he has gotten to the point of head tilt from myco... there's not much else to do other than take him to a vet for treatment. You can make it easier on him by giving him soft moist food.

I prepare a soft food for my pet rat who has a weak immune system and cannot fight off small sniffles. This always works for me because he just doesnt eat very much when he is sick, and he loses weight and looks so sad. This little mix I give him always gets him right back on track, even though he has to share with his friend.

1/4 of short can of Innova canned dog food (has chunks of carrots, potatos, rice, organic meat)
1 table spoon of cooked brown rice
small teaspoon of flax seed
1 Tablespoon of raw sunflower seeds
oatmeal or barley

and whatever fresh veggies or vegetables I have on hand.

I mix it all up, serve room temperature and always make sure to have enough for my other rat. I serve it once a day along with fresh fresh water and lab block.

I have even provided him a heated area by his hammock to help him recover.


Not saying that this will cure him, it's just to get him eating again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

We are not bringing in any new rats until this is figured out. I just picked up Monk and he has another symptom that I just noticed. He has hair loss on one of his testicles. I was just reading an article about myco when I clicked on this thread to check the response.

It definitely sounds like myco. According to the article, it also causes low litter sizes when they breed. His last fathered litter was only 6 and they all died at 2 weeks.

Is there anything I can do for him? And does the other male have it? What should I do for the colony? The other rats seem fine. I have All the females in other cages but their cages are in close proximity to Monk's cage. It says myco is highly contagious. Will all the rats have it?

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ALL rats have myco. (except lab rats)

Myco is the kind of infection that remains in check until the rats immune system is compromised.

His breathing is labored and his eyes are very unfocused. He has taken to rolling and using the side of the "enclosure" to steady himself (laying on his side).

We can't get to a vet until tomorrow, and I'm not sure if they take in emergency cases like this very early in the morning. We are considering an emergency vet as they are open 24hours. We know they are very expensive. A vet appointment for our cat this past year cost us $300 for the visit. She had to be x-rayed since she had passed blood in her stool.

We are going to try calling and telling them we know he has myco (he has a lot of the symptoms) and we need the antibiotics. Do you think they will just charge us for the antibiotics or will they make us go through a full exam.

This is so unfair to him. He's not even a year old yet. We raised him from 3 weeks old. He is our little man. Our baby boy.

Jay, if you read the link I provided for you the answers are in it. We can't diagnose your rats and tell you if they are sick or not or will get sick. That's a vet's job. You've had losses across the board it seems lately and I'm at a loss to tell you anything more than I have already. Something is up in your colony and you need to start addressing it. Feeders or not, it's not fair to animals to die for no good reason.

The last time you posted about rats dying on Aug 10th I responded with this post...

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If you are having die offs in various littes from various females at various ages I'd be looking at your husbandry first. It's not unusual to get crap rats from a pet store but you don't usually see problems across the board like that (it's more individual animals). Look into how you are keeping them, breeding them, feeding them, etc.

Getting "furious" because a breeding animal doesn't perform as expected is counter productive. They are living creatures, not production lines. They will do as best they can depending on their genetics, their abilities, how they are cared for, etc. It's not personal.

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http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=72792

My thoughts haven't changed much Jay. If you have sick and dying rats, from adult breeders down to new pinks then something is going on with the husbandry choices you are making. I'd think you'd be wise to address it as quickly as possible.

If that rat is suffering either seek vet care or humanely euthanize it. It's hard but you have to make these calls for the animal's sake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

His breathing is labored and his eyes are very unfocused. He has taken to rolling and using the side of the "enclosure" to steady himself (laying on his side).

We can't get to a vet until tomorrow, and I'm not sure if they take in emergency cases like this very early in the morning. We are considering an emergency vet as they are open 24hours. We know they are very expensive. A vet appointment for our cat this past year cost us $300 for the visit. She had to be x-rayed since she had passed blood in her stool.

We are going to try calling and telling them we know he has myco (he has a lot of the symptoms) and we need the antibiotics. Do you think they will just charge us for the antibiotics or will they make us go through a full exam.

This is so unfair to him. He's not even a year old yet. We raised him from 3 weeks old. He is our little man. Our baby boy.

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They should give him a check up. Definitely, you have really no clue what your dealing with here, or the full extent of it, that has to be considered before treating him with any medicine.

I've taken my young male rat to the vet like I've said, and he was young as well (<year old). He has never had a very strong immune system, and I retired him from breeding immediately. He had only sired a few litters, and he only does well with one other male. Any more and he stresses out and gets sick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Jay, if you read the link I provided for you the answers are in it. We can't diagnose your rats and tell you if they are sick or not or will get sick. That's a vet's job. You've had losses across the board it seems lately and I'm at a loss to tell you anything more than I have already. Something is up in your colony and you need to start addressing it. Feeders or not, it's not fair to animals to die for no good reason.

The last time you posted about rats dying on Aug 10th I responded with this post...



http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=72792

My thoughts haven't changed much Jay. If you have sick and dying rats, from adult breeders down to new pinks then something is going on with the husbandry choices you are making. I'd think you'd be wise to address it as quickly as possible.

If that rat is suffering either seek vet care or humanely euthanize it. It's hard but you have to make these calls for the animal's sake.

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I have to agree 100% with Jo. Just the amount of problems you have with rats this past year, I'm not sure what else we can tell you since it does seem to be the same thing over and over again.

I really don't know what to say. I give my rats clean water, food, a clean enclosure, and on occasion, handling. I try and QT new rats. There have been no new rats added to the colony recently. The sick male was the most recent. He got sick so I moved him to his own enclosure. Solja seemed fine. I'm not a vet. I put him in with his father and the two of them have been fine together for the past month. Monk's rapid decline has been very recent, within the past week.

I'm not going to sit here and defend my husbandry tonight. What I need is advice on how to make him comfortable until I can get him to a vet tomorrow. The emergency vet couldn't help us even if they wanted to. The vet they have tonight does not work with small animals. The closest emergency vet is in northern, Va. (2 hours away). I just want him to be ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I really don't know what to say. I give my rats clean water, food, a clean enclosure, and on occasion, handling. I try and QT new rats. There have been no new rats added to the colony recently. The sick male was the most recent. He got sick so I moved him to his own enclosure. Solja seemed fine. I'm not a vet. I put him in with his father and the two of them have been fine together for the past month. Monk's rapid decline has been very recent, within the past week.

I'm not going to sit here and defend my husbandry tonight. What I need is advice on how to make him comfortable until I can get him to a vet tomorrow. The emergency vet couldn't help us even if they wanted to. The vet they have tonight does not work with small animals. The closest emergency vet is in northern, Va. (2 hours away). I just want him to be ok.

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Rats are just like all other prey species. They hide all illness until it is just about too late and progressed very far.

If they've been together for a month, then it makes sense that you begin to see the outward signs of illness now.

Just... stop bringing in rats. You cant afford it in lost production or vet bills.

Keep him warm, well ventilated away from drafts. Give him soft food, and away from all the other rats.

We are not bringing in any more rats. I wouldn't trust the store anyway. They have a new supplier and all the feeders come in sick, sneezing or with hairloss.

I'm actually out of any kind of supply for feeders since I won't buy from the store I usually use.

We are going to make him a soft food he can eat. He is being given water by dropper. How often should I give him water?

Thanks for all your help. I'll let you all know how he fairs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

We are going to make him a soft food he can eat. He is being given water by dropper. How often should I give him water?

Thanks for all your help. I'll let you all know how he fairs.

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Give him water as often as he'll take it. I'd offer every half an hour or so until you get an idea of what he can take in each time,

We made a mix of this:

1 pkg wet cat food (its chunky style. Its all we have as far as wet food)
Couple tspns of cooked brown rice
Soaked lab block
crumbled dog biscuit (figured it can't hurt)
and some water

Its mixing right now. We are waiting for the lab block and dog biscuit to soak into the mix. We gave him a little piece of the cat food and he ate it really quickly. If we give him a piece of food, he will eat it on his own. I think I'm going to stay up with him tonight to make sure he is warm and hydrated.

It really sounds like he has an ear infection that has spread to his brain(can happen if it goes on long enough) or he has a pituitary tumor(very typical in males that are around a year old).

Either way, he will never be normal again. The infection has gone on long enough for him to become emaciated and dehydrated, and also for him to be rolling. This means his equilibrium is damaged.

What I've done is gotten a can of Hills a/d, mixed it with Ensure or the grocery store brand equivalent(no lactose) and the rats can get the needed calories and liquids from it without wasting energy eating.

I would get some injectable Baytril and give it to him orally(mix it in yogurt or whatever, or just squirt the dose in his mouth). It absorbs faster via the GI tract. You can also put it directly into the affected ear(1 drop) and massage it down in there. I would also get some antifungal ear drops too. My vet usually mixes miconazole, baytril and dexamethasone(steroid) as an ear solution when one of my animals has an ear infection. Beats that infectin to a pulp.

Ear infections in rats need to be caught early(excessive scratching of one ear, bloody discharge, odor from the ear, slight head tilt). Once it gets to where they are spinning, dehydrated and malnourished, then they usually won't be right again.

He does need fluids, so get him to drink whatever you can. Either some fruit flavored pedialite, ensure, watery yogurt, sugar water, things like that. Then get him to the vet as soon as you can. He'll need subcutaneous fluids(under the skin), antibiotics, and hopefully a steroid.

Myco is NOT contagious. AT ALL. Myco DOES NOT cause the infection. Mycoplasma is a bacteria that ALL rats have. It usually does not pose a problem unless the rat is SICK, STRESSED, or a COMBO of the two(just enunciating not yelling). If the rat is sick and stressed(bad choice of cage mates, new environment, poor environment, poor air quality, too drafty/cold, too hot, poor diet)for whatever reason, this will cause the Myco to deplete the immune system to where the rat gets a secondary infection. This secondary infection(respiratory is the usual symptom, but ear infections can also pop up) is what is the killer.

SO! What were those two boys housed in? If they were in a 10 gallon tank, that's why they are sick. I HATE tanks for rats, unless it's ONE very pregnant, or nursing mother with less-than-2-week-old babies. The ammonia builds up and regardless of how much you clean, they are breathing it. Ammonia = lung scarring = constant respiratory distress = slow painful death via asphyxiation.

Monk and his son were being housed in a 20L tank. This is how I house rats, currently. I'm in the process of trying to get another rack built (I currently have one with only one functioning tub since the runners are not on)

10g: 1 pregnant/nursing mother, 2 1-2 month old rats.
20g Long: Up to 3 (no more) fully grown adult breeding rats, normally a 1.2 group. If younger, no more than 4.
Rack Tub: My rule is no more than 3, but I've never housed more than two to a tub so far.

I'm trying to think of a way to give them more ventilation than a tank can provide. I don't like tanks either but its all I have right now until I get my racks built.

Update: He had decided he doesn't want to eat any solid food at this point. BUT, he loves the "gravy" from his mixture. The "gravy" includes water, the gravy from the wet food, ground up dog biscuit, and tiny bits of lab block. He loves it and has downed 8ml of the liquid. We have made him a little nest in his bucket. Its a green bucket that we usually use to weigh the snakes. We lined the bottom with paper towel and gave him a clean shirt.

*Just thought I'd add. He peed on me. So he's taking in fluids ok.

If we put him in a more secure location, do you think he'd be ok during the night without me giving him fluids. He's downed maybe about 4ml of water and 8ml of "gravy" and he peed once.

I would cull them off & start a new colony after everything is cleaned & disinfected,I know you are attached to him but thats not fair to the animal,any signs of sickness in my colony they get fed off as soon as I see it. I had my first mouse colony die off for a month & gave up then I changed suppliers & got some healthy mice. some places sell sick feeders that will infect your colony be careful.

"Culling" him is not an option right now. He is more than a breeder for our colony. He is a family pet. We raised him from the time he was 3 weeks old. If the vet feels (and if we feel) that putting him to sleep is the better option, then we will do it, but we want to give him a chance at life.

We got another 1.5ml of "gravy" into him. He really really likes it. And we got him to eat some lab block "sludge" off my finger, along with another piece of cat food.

Update:

Monk did not make it through the night.

So sorry to hear Monk did not make it.

I'm sure it is not what you want to hear right now, but I do feel I should add my voice to those that are saying that SOMETHING is going on with your rats. It sounds like maybe you lost Monk due to poor quarantine procedures, but from what I recall of some of the other problems you've had, they didn't all seem related to something new you brought in. You need to look closely at everything you are doing with them. Everything that goes on in your house near them. If you can't find the problem, maybe it is the rats themselves. I know you are not thrilled with the pet store you got at least some of them from, so it is very possible they were just bad stock to start out with. Maybe you need to eliminate all of them, sterilize everything, and start over. If you take this route, I'd recommend being very selective about where you get the beginnings of your new colony. In your shoes, I'd be willing to drive an hour or more each way to get some good stock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Update:

Monk did not make it through the night.

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Im do sorry jay!:tears:

I do not know what I would do if this happened to one of my special females ive been raiseing since she was a pink.Im really sorry

We are going to bury him in the backyard.

Thankyou everyone that posted here with advice, suggestions, or just comments.

Jay I'm sorry you lost Monk and I'm sorry if you are feeling my comments might have been a bit harsh. I'm not trying to be harsh with you just to slap at you. I am trying to be honest and yes a bit blunt. I'm striving as have Connie and Becky and others to try and get you to see where your problems might be so that you can avoid having to go through this again and again and the rats can avoid dieing needlessly.

Again I am very sorry Monk passed but at least now he's not in pain and distress any longer.

Jay, usually the incubation period for viruses and bacteria is about 5-7 days in a rat. If you went to a pet store or anything and handled their rats or even went near their small pets, it's important to know.

Even if you step in squirrel crap outside, they carry SDA virus, which can kill your rats if the secondary infection doesn't kill them first.

It's very, VERY important NOT to go into any pet stores without disinfecting/changing clothes when you get home. You cannot handle rats at a pet store and then go home and handle your own, this is breaking quarantine.

Your rat breeding ventures have not gone well, likely because of poor quality and unhealthy animals and from poor quarantine methods.

Oh and if you're going to be keeping rats as pets, you need to have subQ fluids, a nebulizer, hospital cage/tank(5-10 gallon preferably or a no-level flat bottom cage), antibiotics such as Baytril, Doxycycline, Amoxicillin, as well as some steroids(injectable and inhalable). Pet rats are not cheap to keep.. I have 32 of them..

I'm sorry to hear that Monk didn't make it.