May not work after all

I was thinking of a getting a 32 qt tub vision rack and moving some of the animals from cb70 AP rack into it but it doesn't look like the girls will fit.
This is one of the girls in a 32 qt tub. I think she needs to stay in the cb70 tubs. I may just go with another AP rack in 32 qt size for just the males to keep the racks looks consistent versus having AP and visions.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/lola.jpg

How big is the girl? I keep most females in 32qt tubs.

Not too big. She's only about 2500 grams. I have one that is 3800 grams (she would never fit :D).

Looks nice and cozy.

I'm worried that once I add the water bowl in, any female over 2000 grams would be too cramped.

I don't mind so much having big girls in 32 qt tubs.... it's when I put a breeding male in that I feel things get a bit cramped. I try to keep all breeding females in cb 70's so she and the male can have some room to move. I know some breeders don't go larger than 32 qt though, and still have breeding success.

Im no expert on the matter but I keep 900gram females in a 41qt, it does look cramped, but then again who can tell what the snake is thinking? I think the snake needs room to move and not just stay in the same spot all the time. Some breeders may only give 32 qt of space for snakes but i feel they may like more space than this... They are more than $$$$ compared to space for me...

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Originally Posted by Mochelem

Im no expert on the matter but I keep 900gram females in a 41qt, it does look cramped, but then again who can tell what the snake is thinking? I think the snake needs room to move and not just stay in the same spot all the time. Some breeders may only give 32 qt of space for snakes but i feel they may like more space than this... They are more than $$$$ compared to space for me...

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I don't mind so much having big girls in 32 qt tubs.... it's when I put a breeding male in that I feel things get a bit cramped. I try to keep all breeding females in cb 70's so she and the male can have some room to move. I know some breeders don't go larger than 32 qt though, and still have breeding success.

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I keep all my adults in 28qt tubs. Granted I don't have any over 2,500g yet, but I've had no problems breeding in these. I even had good locks from a 800g male x 1,100g '05 female in a 12qt tub. They all eat, shed and breed perfectly, so I see no reason to go bigger at this point. Balls seem to do better for me in cozy spaces. I still keep my juvi cal king in a large tub, and any new species would get the most appropriate floor space and height in it's enclosure, but balls are pretty good that way.

i agree that ball pythons do better in smaller enclosures but i think that there can be too small an enclosure for a ball python. i think the 32 qt is too small so a 28 qt is definitely too small for a full grown male or female. sure some may eat and even breed in those things but that doesnt mean they should be kept in there for life. if people want to keep em all cramped, hey thats your thing but personally i feel its wrong to take advantage of their minimal space requirements.

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Originally Posted by bigballs

i agree that ball pythons do better in smaller enclosures but i think that there can be too small an enclosure for a ball python. i think the 32 qt is too small so a 28 qt is definitely too small for a full grown male or female. sure some may eat and even breed in those things but that doesnt mean they should be kept in there for life. if people want to keep em all cramped, hey thats your thing but personally i feel its wrong to take advantage of their minimal space requirements.

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To each his own, but how can you tell they are cramped? I have most of my adult girls and all of my adult males in 32qt tubs and none of them are cramped, or at least they haven't told me so. :P

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Originally Posted by jglass38

To each his own, but how can you tell they are cramped? I have most of my adult girls and all of my adult males in 32qt tubs and none of them are cramped, or at least they haven't told me so. :P

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I have a couple of bigger snakes in 32 qt tubs and the rest of the bigger snakes in 3x2x1 reptile cages. The snakes in tubs can't get away from their waste and so lie in it until early morning when I clean them. The balls in cages never lay in their waste since they have room to get away from it. To me this suggests that there might be a limit as to how minimal a ball python would go were they able to choose their own living spaces :)

I have an 825 gram female pied in a 6qt hatchling rack. I've moved her into a 15 qt rack and every time I move her she stop's eating. Even with a hide box So, for now she stays in a hatchling rack.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I have a couple of bigger snakes in 32 qt tubs and the rest of the bigger snakes in 3x2x1 reptile cages. The snakes in tubs can't get away from their waste and so lie in it until early morning when I clean them. The balls in cages never lay in their waste since they have room to get away from it. To me this suggests that there might be a limit as to how minimal a ball python would go were they able to choose their own living spaces :)

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Not sure this proves anything, but whatever works for you is what you should do. For me, all but the largest girls and all adult males go in 32qt sweaterboxes. They all eat, defecate, grow, shed and breed.

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Originally Posted by bigballs

i agree that ball pythons do better in smaller enclosures but i think that there can be too small an enclosure for a ball python. i think the 32 qt is too small so a 28 qt is definitely too small for a full grown male or female. sure some may eat and even breed in those things but that doesnt mean they should be kept in there for life. if people want to keep em all cramped, hey thats your thing but personally i feel its wrong to take advantage of their minimal space requirements.

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totally agree.i truly feel sorry for a animal that can fart on one side and smell it on the other.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

To each his own, but how can you tell they are cramped? I have most of my adult girls and all of my adult males in 32qt tubs and none of them are cramped, or at least they haven't told me so. :P

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how can you tell they are not cramped?;) i guess until one actually speaks up we will never know.

I might be new to snakes, but im not new to simple life things. Animals need space, whether they use it all the time or not. Sure some might say that in the wild they spend 90% of their time in a hole in the ground, but that other 10%, however long it lasts time wise, they are able to move around freely and not have to worry about limitations. They are able to stretch their body out entirely, not always curled up.

Imagine as a person (we too are animals), sitting all day long, it's possible, but DEFINATELY not advised, sure we might have more serious health issues if we do, but think of the comfort factor.

How would you feel if you saw someone keeping a big German Shepard dog in a cage all day, or a small yard even. Lion in a zoo compared to the plains of Africa.

Just my thoughts

P.S. I really hope I dont offend anyone!!!

I like this site:)

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Originally Posted by starmom

I have a couple of bigger snakes in 32 qt tubs and the rest of the bigger snakes in 3x2x1 reptile cages. The snakes in tubs can't get away from their waste and so lie in it until early morning when I clean them. The balls in cages never lay in their waste since they have room to get away from it. To me this suggests that there might be a limit as to how minimal a ball python would go were they able to choose their own living spaces :)

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Not sure this proves anything, but whatever works for you is what you should do. For me, all but the largest girls and all adult males go in 32qt sweaterboxes. They all eat, defecate, grow, shed and breed.

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I agree that this proves nothing, which is why I was careful to use the word "suggest". ;)

Good research begins with observations of animal behaviors. Given that there has not been a lot of research on ball pythons, that I am aware of and/or have been able to find, I believe that the herp community has a responsibility to take note of the behaviors of these snakes so to improve our husbandry skills.

I offered up my observations of my snakes' behaviors to suggest that, for the open mind, there are always new things to be learned from our animal brethren generally, ball pythons specifically, and that perhaps what might be convenient for the multiple snake keeper could perhaps not be the best way to keep these snakes. :)

Smaller tubs vs bigger display cages.

After all, I think it has a lot to do with our own preferences/needs that we later on try to input as snakes preferences/needs..

Don´t get me wrong, but these snakes are very tolerant so when something we like or find appropriate to us works with the snakes... we (naturally) tend to say that that is the BEST way with these snakes.

I prefere larger display cages and (so far) have a limited number of snakes and therefore room for bigger cages. As long as the cage is well designed and heated, it works well for the snakes (at least so far it has been) and the result is also visually pleasing. So, I favor bigger cages.

But I know human nature (at least myself..) so I suspect that if I needed to keep them in racks (due to number and/or lack of space) and if it worked well also, I would probably feel that racks with tubs would be the way to go.

Having said that, I should say that I feel that in a bigger cage you have hides + (some) room for exercise (not only to move), while in - most of - the racks I´ve seen, the tub IS the hide. So, basically, the snakes live their entire life in the hide.

The only real difference I've noticed between large BP's kept in 32qt. tubs vs those kept in larger display tanks is that the snakes kept in the larger enclosures seem to be much more active when handled.

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Originally Posted by bigballs

i agree that ball pythons do better in smaller enclosures but i think that there can be too small an enclosure for a ball python. i think the 32 qt is too small so a 28 qt is definitely too small for a full grown male or female. sure some may eat and even breed in those things but that doesnt mean they should be kept in there for life. if people want to keep em all cramped, hey thats your thing but personally i feel its wrong to take advantage of their minimal space requirements.

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I'm pretty sure a 28qt and a 32qt have the same floor space, with the 28qt. being about 1/2" shorter. For me, at least for now, all my adults are thriving in them, and I don't think they are too cramped. Here is my largest 2,500g female in a 28qt. I have no problem with other people keeping them in bigger cages, as long s they are thriving in their care, but I don't believe it's wrong to keep them like I do.
http://a731.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...343a0d1db2.jpg
http://a869.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...a6b59d874c.jpg

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Originally Posted by starmom

I have a couple of bigger snakes in 32 qt tubs and the rest of the bigger snakes in 3x2x1 reptile cages. The snakes in tubs can't get away from their waste and so lie in it until early morning when I clean them. The balls in cages never lay in their waste since they have room to get away from it. To me this suggests that there might be a limit as to how minimal a ball python would go were they able to choose their own living spaces :)

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I haven't ever noticed this. I have noticed that hatchlings and juvies will poo in their hide and stay in there with it until I clean the next day, while older snakes will go in the far corner and stay out of it. Even my adults in the "cramped" tubs are easily able to avoid their defication, where younger snakes will sometimes go whereever they are sitting, even when they have plenty of room to avoid it. I very rarely have an adult crawl in it's own mess. Even when I got home from 6 days in Daytona, I had a lot of dry waste in corners, and not one of them had visibly been touched.

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Originally Posted by Dave79

I have an 825 gram female pied in a 6qt hatchling rack. I've moved her into a 15 qt rack and every time I move her she stop's eating. Even with a hide box So, for now she stays in a hatchling rack.

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At 825g, I personally think it's time to move up in size, even if it takes 4-6 weeks to get her eating again, but I wouldn't bash you for your choice. You will have to move her eventually, though. That does seem a bit cramped to the point where she wouldn't be able to avoid crawling in defication.

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Originally Posted by Butters420

totally agree.i truly feel sorry for a animal that can fart on one side and smell it on the other.

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:confused:

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Originally Posted by cH@0s

I might be new to snakes, but im not new to simple life things. Animals need space, whether they use it all the time or not. Sure some might say that in the wild they spend 90% of their time in a hole in the ground, but that other 10%, however long it lasts time wise, they are able to move around freely and not have to worry about limitations. They are able to stretch their body out entirely, not always curled up.

Imagine as a person (we too are animals), sitting all day long, it's possible, but DEFINATELY not advised, sure we might have more serious health issues if we do, but think of the comfort factor.

How would you feel if you saw someone keeping a big German Shepard dog in a cage all day, or a small yard even. Lion in a zoo compared to the plains of Africa.

Just my thoughts

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People, dogs and cats are not ball pythons. That's comparing apples and broccoli. They spend 90% of their time in a cramped hole. The other 10% they are looking for food, water or a mate. They are ambush preditors, so they are just lazy like that to begin with, and we provide them with food, fresh water, a clean enclosure and a mate. If we keep them well fed, they almost never leave from their curled up position in a corner of the tub. Also, snakes in general have a very unique muscular system. If a ball python has enough room to make a U in it's cage, it has plenty of room to stretch and exercise evey muscle in it's body, whenever it wants to. Plenty of snakes need a lot of room to fully extend their bodies, but ball pythons don't need a large enclosure to thrive.

Hi Jake- thanks for your input. I'm uncertain as to whether you keep any ball pythons in cages and, if you don't, I'm not certain that you would be able to notice any differences!

As for the snakes rarely leaving their curled up position, I have to say that all of my snakes in tubs and in cages all leave their curled up position each evening/night to cruise around their environment. I have noticed that the snakes in cages lounge around outside of their hides a lot during the evening/twilight hours while the snakes in tubs are limited in their activity due to space.

I have 5 snakes right now who are all over 1100g and in 32qt tubs. Given their size and the tub size, they have little choice but to lay in their pee. It is interesting that you have observed differently. And again, my larger snakes in 3x2x1 cages never lay in their pee.

It is evident that there is so much still to learn about these snakes and I really value these sorts of discussions.

Thanks for the input and take care.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Hi Jake- thanks for your input. I'm uncertain as to whether you keep any ball pythons in cages and, if you don't, I'm not certain that you would be able to notice any differences!

As for the snakes rarely leaving their curled up position, I have to say that all of my snakes in tubs and in cages all leave their curled up position each evening/night to cruise around their environment. I have noticed that the snakes in cages lounge around outside of their hides a lot during the evening/twilight hours while the snakes in tubs are limited in their activity due to space.

I have 5 snakes right now who are all over 1100g and in 32qt tubs. Given their size and the tub size, they have little choice but to lay in their pee. It is interesting that you have observed differently. And again, my larger snakes in 3x2x1 cages never lay in their pee.

It is evident that there is so much still to learn about these snakes and I really value these sorts of discussions.

Thanks for the input and take care.

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I have had three ball pythons that I kept in 10g, 20g, 29g and 34g(?) aquariums when I was younger. I always used plenty of hides, and they always used them. They did ok, but their feeding wasn't as consistant and I see with my snakes in tubs, and one of them was always nervous and a little nippy whenever I would take him out of his hide to clean or handle him. That might be a coincidence, but I don't have that problem with any of my 20+ BPs I keep in tubs.

I could have worded my post better. I didn't mean to sound like my snakes are lethargic. They do crawl around in the evenings and during the night, but they mostly stay curled up while they are digesting food (when they are well fed). And the adults, for the most part, don't crawl through their poo. Some of my snakes that are in 12qt tubs do (my albino especially just never cared), but even my largest girls in 28qt tubs have enough space to avoid it. I'm just saying what works for me. If I thought that my animals would be better off in bigger cages or 41qt tubs, that is where they would be. If someone else finds that their balls truely do best in 96qt tubs, then that is where they should be.

I prefer Adults in 41 qt, subs in 32qt and juvies in 12qt.... But like stated before this doesnt make me right, it doesnt make me wrong... Thats the way I keep my animals and they are thriving!!

I know a lot of things in this hobby are done with keeper convenience a high priority, and that is where the whole rack system is derived from.

I am yet to move to tubs as I have not expanded my collection to that point yet, and while it is a widely used caging method, I am not sure how I feel about it.

Like clockwork everynight at 9:30 my 2yr old BP girl(4 foot) is out climbing and exploring every nook and corner of her 2'x3'x1' cage. She was recently moved into this as 20 gal long she was in didn't seem like it was giving her enough space to do her thing. I would like to switch to tubs, but having witnessed how much she seems to enjoy her space to explore I would almost feel guilty confining her to such a small area.

I thought in keeping captive animals happy the key was options. Giving the options to the animal within their enclosure. So that if they are hot they can cool down, if they are cool they can warm up, if they are shy they can hide, and if they are restless they can stretch out. We know that thermoregulation is a must for their health, so we create a tempurature gradient, and let the animal regulate on their own.
I would imagine in a small confined tub, If the animal ever felt the need to roam, whether it be for hunting or mating reasons, and only a small percentage of time, they would not be able to exercise this behavior, and I am sure the inablity to do that would definately cause some level of stress, whether or not that stress is apparent to us. Like was said, the snakes can't tell us what they want, So instead of hoping he is not cramped, or assuming he is happy while in tight quarters, why not provide space for both, and let the snake decide?

Just my thoughts on it.

~Joe

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I know a lot of things in this hobby are done with keeper convenience a high priority, and that is where the whole rack system is derived from.

I am yet to move to tubs as I have not expanded my collection to that point yet, and while it is a widely used caging method, I am not sure how I feel about it.

Like clockwork everynight at 9:30 my 2yr old BP girl(4 foot) is out climbing and exploring every nook and corner of her 2'x3'x1' cage. She was recently moved into this as 20 gal long she was in didn't seem like it was giving her enough space to do her thing. I would like to switch to tubs, but having witnessed how much she seems to enjoy her space to explore I would almost feel guilty confining her to such a small area.

I thought in keeping captive animals happy the key was options. Giving the options to the animal within their enclosure. So that if they are hot they can cool down, if they are cool they can warm up, if they are shy they can hide, and if they are restless they can stretch out. We know that thermoregulation is a must for their health, so we create a tempurature gradient, and let the animal regulate on their own.
I would imagine in a small confined tub, If the animal ever felt the need to roam, whether it be for hunting or mating reasons, and only a small percentage of time, they would not be able to exercise this behavior, and I am sure the inablity to do that would definately cause some level of stress, whether or not that stress is apparent to us. Like was said, the snakes can't tell us what they want, So instead of hoping he is not cramped, or assuming he is happy while in tight quarters, why not provide space for both, and let the snake decide?

Just my thoughts on it.

~Joe

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If it works for you, why change? :) I've personally noticed more activity with balls when I used display cages, even with plenty of hides. I also think, how many BP's escape their display tank, just to be found in a tight nook or cranny somewhere? I've had a BP escape once, and I've had two corns escape. The corns were eventually found cruising around the floor, and the ball was eventually found in a ball in a tight crevace. Just something to think about.

Just for the purpose of clarification, I do not use fish tanks. I use reptile cages made by RBI and measure 3x2x1. My ball pythons have never escaped from any of these cages nor do I notice any level of activity that could be interpreted as frenetic, searching for an out, or stressed. I agree that racks and tubs are for keeper convenience.

I am not convinced that ball pythons only live in termite mounds. I understand that gravid females are often found there, and this makes sense from a security (survival of the gene pool) position. I have also read a couple of scientific papers that showed ball pythons living in other habitats as well- including mangrove swamps!

Therefore, I can only conclude that these snakes are fairly adaptable; as with most animals.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

If it works for you, why change? :)

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Respectfully,:) Because what works for you.. may not always be what is most comfortable for the snake. You said above
"For me, at least for now, all my adults are thriving in them, and I don't think they are too cramped." How do you know that your snakes aren't waking up while your in bed and hating life cause they have nowhere to explore? Not saying they are... I'm just pointing out that because "you don't think" they are cramped doesn't mean they aren't. They will never be able to tell you which they prefer. IMO we should eliminate the guesswork, and give the snake an environment where it could make choices as if in the wild. Eating Pooping and shedding are all great indicators for physical health. The ability to access the options I speak of may or may not play a big enough roll in the mental health of the snake to effect it's physical health, but IMO this does not mean that we should disregard that naturally the snakes are allowed these options.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

Respectfully,:) Because what works for you.. may not always be what is most comfortable for the snake. You said above

That's what I meant, that your snakes are doing good for you.

"For me, at least for now, all my adults are thriving in them, and I don't think they are too cramped." How do you know that your snakes aren't waking up while your in bed and hating life cause they have nowhere to explore?

I check on my snake room at all hours of the day and night. Plus, I don't think that pythons have the mental capacity to think to themselves, "I hate my life". Pythons are primative snakes that don't physically need a large enclosure to excersise.

Not saying they are... I'm just pointing out that because "you don't think" they are cramped doesn't mean they aren't. They will never be able to tell you which they prefer. IMO we should eliminate the guesswork, and give the snake an environment where it could make choices as if in the wild.

I disagree. Unless we have a large room where we can use HPS and MH lighting on constantly adjusted timers, Underground burrows, no contact from humans, natural substrate, streams, an ecosystem of naturally sustainable natural prey items, etc., we can't provide them with a natural environment. Putting them in large cages is not the next best thing in my opinion. Once we take these animals out of the wild and put them in private collections, we have a resposibility to give them everything they need, and take care of them to the best of our current knowledge and ability. While a 41qt tub, or even a 96 qt tub might allow us to do this, I don't think that my ball pythons "hate their lives" any more, being in 28 qt tubs.

Eating Pooping and shedding are all great indicators for physical health. The ability to access the options I speak of may or may not play a big enough roll in the mental health of the snake to effect it's physical health, but IMO this does not mean that we should disregard that naturally the snakes are allowed these options.

Mental health is reserved for animals capable of a thought processes more complicated than a python has. You are anthropomorphising these animals here.

People need room to excersise. Dogs need room to excersise. Kingsnakes need a large enclosure that allows them to stretch out, climb, and cruise around. Ball pythons simply don't need big enclosures, and it can be argued that keeping them in large enclosures can be dentrimental to them in plenty of circumstances. The same cannot honestly be said, at this point, about keeping balls in smaller tubs of appropriate size to meet their basic needs.

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Just wanted to say I am not attacking anyone elses practice...I just enjoy discussing topics like this on a respectful level... i t advances my own thinking, and I often learn something new...So no offense intended by any means in my comments.

"I check on my snake room at all hours of the day and night."

I seriously doubt you are monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day. Come on now...:rolleyes: You may check them at any hour of the day, but I would bet anything you are not monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day and night...Don't you sleep?

"I disagree. Unless we have a large room where we can use HPS and MH lighting on constantly adjusted timers, Underground burrows, no contact from humans, natural substrate, streams, an ecosystem of naturally sustainable natural prey items, etc., we can't provide them with a natural environment. Putting them in large cages is not the next best thing in my opinion. Once we take these animals out of the wild and put them in private collections, we have a resposibility to give them everything they need, and take care of them to the best of our current knowledge and ability. While a 41qt tub, or even a 96 qt tub might allow us to do this, I don't think that my ball pythons "hate their lives" any more, being in 28 qt tubs. "

In every other area of the herping hobby I have explored, I have found it is a constant goal to mimic the natural environment of the animal you are keeping as much as possible. We will never recreate nature in a cage...but that is the goal. Maybe my "hating life" phrase was not the right one to use, but knowing that at night they do become active, and will explore as part of their natural behavior (I see it every night), I think we should provide the area to do such. I personally don't know if we should keep an animal that will move and explore, in an environment where that is not an option at some fair level. We keep pointing out that they spend "Most" of their time burrowed away like the conditions we recreate in tubs, but are we forgetting that most of the time is not all of the time, and that they do become active and roam at night? Because they don't need room to roam in order to see them eat, poop and shed, does not mean we are providing them the optimal living conditions in a small tub.

Some find keeping animals captive unethical all together. I personally believe that if you are able to provide an area that mimics their natural environment for them to thrive and exercise natural behaviors then I personally don't find it unethical.

" Mental health is reserved for animals capable of a thought processes more complicated than a python has. You are anthropomorphising these animals here."

Correction...I was not "anthropomorphising" these animals, While we tend to think that us humans are above all other animals... "mental health" is not strictly human... It is something present in any animal with a brain, whether it is apparent to us humans or not.

Why do we love to sell Reptiles short? What about stress? Fish, Reptiles, cats, dogs, can all become stressed from living conditions, even while being provided everything necessary to live healthy. Animals die all the time of sress related illnesses. Not just physical stress like from temperature or trauma, but mental stress, like to much handling, other naturally solitary dominant animals in view. It wears a lot on animals. While I think that the signs of stress may not be as apparent in snakes as they are in other herps like Chameleons or Geckos, there is no doubt in my mind they can be stressed about their surroundings. While their brains are more primative than ours, we can't assume them incapable of mental satisfaction.

"People need room to excersise. Dogs need room to excersise. Kingsnakes need a large enclosure that allows them to stretch out, climb, and cruise around. Ball pythons simply don't need big enclosures, and it can be argued that keeping them in large enclosures can be dentrimental to them in plenty of circumstances. The same cannot honestly be said, at this point, about keeping balls in smaller tubs of appropriate size to meet their basic needs."

Again convenience came in. It is easier for us to monitor temperature and humidity in smaller tubs. Just because it is tougher to monitor this in a bigger enclosure does not mean that it can't be done, or it shouldn't be done, or that a BP prefers a smaller bin. Tubs benefit the keeper; because a perfectly sound large enlosure is absolutely possible, just more of a challenge. If anything with tubs you are sacrificing the room that they would use to roam at night if allowed, for the keepers convenience of saving space and ease of monitoring the environment.

Good points, Joe

And it´s good to have a healthy educated discussion. That´s what makes a good forum.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

Just wanted to say I am not attacking anyone elses practice...I just enjoy discussing topics like this on a respectful level... i t advances my own thinking, and I often learn something new...So no offense intended by any means in my comments.

"I check on my snake room at all hours of the day and night."

I seriously doubt you are monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day. Come on now...:rolleyes: You may check them at any hour of the day, but I would bet anything you are not monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day and night...Don't you sleep?

"I disagree. Unless we have a large room where we can use HPS and MH lighting on constantly adjusted timers, Underground burrows, no contact from humans, natural substrate, streams, an ecosystem of naturally sustainable natural prey items, etc., we can't provide them with a natural environment. Putting them in large cages is not the next best thing in my opinion. Once we take these animals out of the wild and put them in private collections, we have a resposibility to give them everything they need, and take care of them to the best of our current knowledge and ability. While a 41qt tub, or even a 96 qt tub might allow us to do this, I don't think that my ball pythons "hate their lives" any more, being in 28 qt tubs. "

In every other area of the herping hobby I have explored, I have found it is a constant goal to mimic the natural environment of the animal you are keeping as much as possible. We will never recreate nature in a cage...but that is the goal. Maybe my "hating life" phrase was not the right one to use, but knowing that at night they do become active, and will explore as part of their natural behavior (I see it every night), I think we should provide the area to do such. I personally don't know if we should keep an animal that will move and explore, in an environment where that is not an option at some fair level. We keep pointing out that they spend "Most" of their time burrowed away like the conditions we recreate in tubs, but are we forgetting that most of the time is not all of the time, and that they do become active and roam at night? Because they don't need room to roam in order to see them eat, poop and shed, does not mean we are providing them the optimal living conditions in a small tub.

Some find keeping animals captive unethical all together. I personally believe that if you are able to provide an area that mimics their natural environment for them to thrive and exercise natural behaviors then I personally don't find it unethical.

" Mental health is reserved for animals capable of a thought processes more complicated than a python has. You are anthropomorphising these animals here."

Correction...I was not "anthropomorphising" these animals, While we tend to think that us humans are above all other animals... "mental health" is not strictly human... It is something present in any animal with a brain, whether it is apparent to us humans or not.

Why do we love to sell Reptiles short? What about stress? Fish, Reptiles, cats, dogs, can all become stressed from living conditions, even while being provided everything necessary to live healthy. Animals die all the time of sress related illnesses. Not just physical stress like from temperature or trauma, but mental stress, like to much handling, other naturally solitary dominant animals in view. It wears a lot on animals. While I think that the signs of stress may not be as apparent in snakes as they are in other herps like Chameleons or Geckos, there is no doubt in my mind they can be stressed about their surroundings. While their brains are more primative than ours, we can't assume them incapable of mental satisfaction.

"People need room to excersise. Dogs need room to excersise. Kingsnakes need a large enclosure that allows them to stretch out, climb, and cruise around. Ball pythons simply don't need big enclosures, and it can be argued that keeping them in large enclosures can be dentrimental to them in plenty of circumstances. The same cannot honestly be said, at this point, about keeping balls in smaller tubs of appropriate size to meet their basic needs."

Again convenience came in. It is easier for us to monitor temperature and humidity in smaller tubs. Just because it is tougher to monitor this in a bigger enclosure does not mean that it can't be done, or it shouldn't be done, or that a BP prefers a smaller bin. Tubs benefit the keeper; because a perfectly sound large enlosure is absolutely possible, just more of a challenge. If anything with tubs you are sacrificing the room that they would use to roam at night if allowed, for the keepers convenience of saving space and ease of monitoring the environment.

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OK, I didn't attack your methods, I just laid out what I do. And I'm an insomniac with sporadic sleeping habits. I didn't say I watch my snakes 24/7. I've observed them plenty of times at every given hour of the day and night. Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal. Again, when I keep chameleons, they live in a 65g reptarium or large vertical custom screen enclosure. Dart frogs get appropriately sized glass vivariums. My colubrids get big enclosures with some climbing space. My Macklott's python had a 90g lizard lounge. My ball pythons now get cozy tubs. Even when I only had 1.1, I kept them in 12qt tubs while 10g and 20g glass aquariums sat unused in my closet. That's just how I roll.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal.

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This is the key issue and I agree with that statement.

But I can´t agree when people say that tubs are the BEST for the animals, when compared to bigger cages.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

OK, I didn't attack your methods, I just laid out what I do. And I'm an insomniac with sporadic sleeping habits. I didn't say I watch my snakes 24/7. I've observed them plenty of times at every given hour of the day and night. Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal. Again, when I keep chameleons, they live in a 65g reptarium or large vertical custom screen enclosure. Dart frogs get appropriately sized glass vivariums. My colubrids get big enclosures with some climbing space. My Macklott's python had a 90g lizard lounge. My ball pythons now get cozy tubs. Even when I only had 1.1, I kept them in 12qt tubs while 10g and 20g glass aquariums sat unused in my closet. That's just how I roll.

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I didn't think you were attacking my methods... And again... I hope you don't feel I am attacking yours. I visited your website and from what I can tell you have your stuff together, and are pretty successful keeping your animals. If anything I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me. There is always something to learn and I have been enlightened many times before. Discussions like this are what keep the hobby moving forward.

"Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal."

Its not that I think small tubs are "wrong for the animal" because "they are convenient for the keeper". It is when we accept something is the right way simply because its convenient. From my observations of my own BP, Roaming her enclosure is part of her daily routine. I find her wrapping and stretching in the most creative of ways, and this is a nighlty behavior. Would it be "right for the animal" for me to not allow her this part of her routine by moving her into a small tub for my own convenience? While this roaming behavior may not be critical to her physical health, or what we percieve as healthy... And we can assume all we want about why they exhibit a certain behavior, regardless, I think our goal should be to allow to them excercise as many natural behaviors as we can cater to in captivity.

Just my thoughts.