Have you heard of this with Pine Pellets

to make a long story short, I was talking to my local feed shop about inexpensive substrate for rats. She suggested pine pellets. I explained that I have been using equine fresh, and did not like it because of the amount of dust.

She basicly explained that I was not using the pine pellets correctly. She said you have to mix them with water prior to using them. according to her if you do this, it virtually illiminates the nasty dust.

She recomended I put in enough pine pellets to cover the floor of the tank, then spray it with water (fine mist with water bottle). Mix it up a bit, and it is good to go. In fact, the pine pellets she stocks (guardian or something) actually says on the bag that it needs to be sprayed with water once it is layed down.

Well, I plan to try it when I get home. A simple web search showed that she is NOT the only one that recomends adding some water prior to use!!! here is an example: http://www.horsetackreview.com/review-display/8765.html

anybody heard of this before, or already doing it???

Yea... it says it on their website. However... the dust is created from the broken down pellets. Soo.... she wants you to break all the pellets down and hope for the best? Then your rats would be running around in all saw dust the whole time, sort of defeated the soaking properties of the pellets themselves.

Then why do you think so many people do it? Why does the web site recomend it? do a web search. Apparently it does not mess up the moisture absorbing properties at all.

Keep in mind, they are not talking about soaking it... only spraying it with a fine mist of water. I imagine a fine misting would only soften soften the pellets up a bit, and cause them to expand.

here are the directions straight from the equine fresh web site. They aren't talking about wetting it to the point of making it dust... they are only saying to add enough water to "expand and fluff"

Instructions For Use:
INITIAL:

1.) Strip stall

2.) Spread pellets evenly - 1" deep (approximately 5 to 7 bags for a 12x12 stall, adjust accordingly).

3.) Spray water lightly on pellets to expand and fluff.

MAINTENANCE:

1.) Remove solids daily and pick wet spots as they become apparent.

2.) Add pellets as necessary (approximately 1 bag a week). Moisten to expand and fluff.

3.) Bedding should be slightly moist to the touch, moisten when too dry.

4.) Strip stall as necessary (approximately every 4 months) and start fresh.

Yes mike, I know what they all say, I have read it. However, your main goal is to minimize dust. Does expanding the pellets into saw dust sound like your minimizing it?

To me, it sounds like my rats are going to be kicking up saw dust for a week.

And yes, the broken down saw dust does NOT soak up pee and moisture from poop as well as the intact pellets. I've had enough floods in my tubs to take notice of that property. :P

I do know that Lord Jackel sprays down his pellets, perhaps he will chime in or you can PM him directly to hear his input.

I'm not sure that a constantly damp (even if only slightly) substrate would be good for rodents. If you lightly spray the pellets, then let them dry out, the dust that was trapped by the moisture is going to be released again.

I think slight moisture is actually good for horses' hooves, so it makes sense that spraying would be recommended for use with horses.

well, I am going to give it a shot. If it doesn't work well then it is just another lesson learned.

Just set up one of my large grow out tubs... BARELY covered the bottom with pine pellets... then very quickly sprayed the pellets with a fine mist of water from the hose. witin a few minutes it swelled up to about an inch deep. Most of the pellets did not loose their shape, they just got bigger. Put the rats back in.


Will report back on what happens. It is amazing how much it expands. If this works, I am really going to be able to "stretch out" each bag!

well, so far it seems to be working... it did definately break some of the pellets down... but it is not "dusty." weird... looks like it should be dusty, but its not. Definately isn't wet. 20 minutes after spraying it, it became dry to the touch. will check beack in at the one week point.

I have not heard this however. I may also give it a try with mine.. Let me know how it works for you and I will post as well with an update

For what it is worth, here is who I have talked to about this....

Horse-person for lack of a better word at TSC
Vet (not exotic/small animal)

Both of them said that with something such small scale as a rat bin, that it would probably boil down to personal preference. The TSC lady said the expansion and extra cushioning helps the horses hooves, but that it may or may not be desirable for small aniamls. I was more concerned about asking the vet wether or not she would suggest the pine pellets or if I should switch to Aspen, etc. She was fine with the pine as long as it is kiln dried or undergoes something else to remove the phenols. When I asked about the wetting down like in a horse stall, she said it probably wouldnt make much of a difference, but that the extra water along with the rat droppings and urine may actually make it a better environment for fungus/mold etc. With regular cleaning I doubt this would be a problem, but still worth mentioning.

well, so far my observation is while it did break the pellets down a little, somehow someway the dust that is usually present on the side of the tubs, and top of the tub is not there at all.

My main complaint with the use of pellets was the amount of dust. so far (5 days in) there is none of the normal dust. it changed the feel of it completley... it basicly made the pellets stick together some.... hard to explain.

Keep in mind, i sprayed a tiny bit of water on them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

well, so far my observation is while it did break the pellets down a little, somehow someway the dust that is usually present on the side of the tubs, and top of the tub is not there at all.

My main complaint with the use of pellets was the amount of dust. so far (5 days in) there is none of the normal dust. it changed the feel of it completley... it basicly made the pellets stick together some.... hard to explain.

Keep in mind, i sprayed a tiny bit of water on them.

---

I'm not buying it. Like I've said, I've had a number of floods that completely expanded ALL of the pellets, and the rats are just running around in sawdust for a week.

I guess Mike that's where I'm confused. It's saw dust, whether you wet it down or the rats do with their pee. I'm not entirely sure why your giving it this magical property of low dust.

Yes, it makes sense if the saw dust is wet it may help to stick together, but what's the difference between you wetting it down right when you change it and it drying, to the rats peeing on it a bit by bit all week long?

Not sure if this helps... but this is what I see and I can't imagine it's somehow less dusty.

Flood

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...s/IMG_2997.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...s/IMG_2998.jpg




Regular use

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...s/IMG_2993.jpg

He didn't flood the tub, he sprayed it lightly. He said the pellets still kept their shape. I don't think you can compare the efficacy of the bedding in the first photo to his bedding that he only spraged lightly. If he says it's working, I think it would be great and maybe female rats can raise their pups on it? I'm buying some of this pretty soon so I'll get to experiement with it also myself.

Humidity is great for horse hooves, keeps them moist and supple. Humidity is NOT good for rats or other rodents. Will cause respiratory problems as well as fungal infections, ring tail, etc.

I hate the dust too, but when you have 300 mice in one tub, you can't help that they churn up alot of dust. I just went out and bought a small air filter with an ionizer and it really helps with the dust.

I would not be adding any dampness or humidity to a rodent tub. It's asking for health problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

He didn't flood the tub, he sprayed it lightly. He said the pellets still kept their shape. I don't think you can compare the efficacy of the bedding in the first photo to his bedding that he only spraged lightly. If he says it's working, I think it would be great and maybe female rats can raise their pups on it? I'm buying some of this pretty soon so I'll get to experiement with it also myself.

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That's not what I'm trying to get across here. I know he's not wetting it down like a flood. Just a nice misting....


You can see in my photo, that regular use over a week the pellets break down by the absorption of water. You can still see whole pellets, and saw dust.

Now, if your adding water to the pellets, they begin to break down just like you can see in my photo, it seems like your just speeding up that process by misting it down right when you change the tubs.

You end up with the same result, broken down, expanded pellets that still make dust with rats running around in it.


Thats what I'm trying to explain, and can't see how your stopping any dust, but actually making more dust by wetting them down so they expand sooner.

Does anyone get what I'm trying to say? :weirdface

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Then why do you think so many people do it? Why does the web site recomend it? do a web search. Apparently it does not mess up the moisture absorbing properties at all.

Keep in mind, they are not talking about soaking it... only spraying it with a fine mist of water. I imagine a fine misting would only soften soften the pellets up a bit, and cause them to expand.

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Its for LIVESTOCK not rats...

You are basicly doing the peeing for them, and you will have all of the pelleted bedding broken down...

Oh, and i tried to raise some pups on pellets/pine, and I lost a few and the others had dried on dust around there nostrils... I don't even like to wet the pellets down for cattle, much less my rats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Its for LIVESTOCK not rats...

You are basicly doing the peeing for them, and you will have all of the pelleted bedding broken down...

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Thank you!! Some one gets it!

Thanks for chiming in as an expert connie when you have never even tried what I am talking about. LOL... shouldn't have expected any different.

Nevermind folks, I will stop posting on this subject. Any questions? Ask the expert.

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Thanks for chiming in as an expert connie when you have never even tried what I am talking about. LOL... shouldn't have expected any different.

Nevermind folks, I will stop posting on this subject. Any questions? Ask the expert.

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

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Way to take the high road Mike. :gj:

Excuse my questioning personality... like I've said, your theory just doesn't make any sense. Can I help that I question it?

er... I use it just to keep the smell down, and does turn pretty dusty but I clean every three or four days before it has a chance to break down fully. I would never want wet it first, I've put it on dog pee before and while it does not turn into the dust I see after I clean up tubs, its still clumps and is wet which I wouldn't want. I think it would be great for horse owners because of how much it expands but for rats id just keep it in its pelleted form. Really if you misted it first it would defeat the purpose of people using it for rats just because if think that would stop its smell/pee poop soaking abilities.

Thats just my :twocents:

I lied. I am replying one more time.

I will continue to spray a light mist of water on the pellets any time I use them in the future because it worked. There was little to no airborn dust, and it took a LOT longer to stink then normal. Didn't make sense to me either how it worked... so I emailed the manufacturer.

Here is my email:

COMMENTS: Hello,

Have a question for you. Not sure if you are aware of this but a large
number of my peers are using your equine fresh pine pelletts for pet /
breeding rats. It is a superior prodect to keep smell down, and works quite
well all around. Normally it is just dumped into the tank or tub and used
as is without adding any water.

Recently I noticed that the bag gave directions to apply a fine mist of
water to the pellets once it is laid. Just to experiment I did this with my
rats. I put just enough pellets down to cover the bottom of the tank and
then sprayed it for about a second with a fine mist. The pellets swelled up
a litte, then ultimately became totally dry again.

While misting did break the pellets down a littleI noticed that after heavy
use there is little to no airborn dust from the pelletts. It also somehow
has kept the smell down even more compared to laying down without the
misting.

My question is, why am I experiencing these results? Anyone who uses pine
pellets knows as soon as they get peed on they break down into the saw dust.
Why would misting with water prior to use end up lowering the amount of
airborn dust when the slight misting seems to add no lasting humidity to the
pine?


Mike Cavanaugh


Here is the Response:

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the email. It would seem to me that your methods and results
are great for your desired outcome.

On a microscopic level, I can speculate the following : By applying a fine
mist of water to the product, the pellet surface swells (or becomes rough) .
This surface swelling is the wood fiber bundles absorbing the small amount
of water thus the appearance of the product drying out. By
opening up the fiber bundles in this way, as the animal urinates the product
will absorb faster due to the greater surface area of the pellet from the
swelling process. Plus the pellet will have a higher moisture content which
will also result in faster moisture absorption because water molecules have
a high molecular attraction for one another.

When you absorb the urine quickly it has little time to grow the bacteria
that cause the odor thus giving better odor control and as well keeps the
dust to a minimum.

I am mailing out some coupons for the time you took to email - thank you again!

Cindee Kohagen
PlanetWise Products

hmm, nice find/email:gj: I'll try it tonight to see

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcavana

Thanks for chiming in as an expert connie when you have never even tried what I am talking about. LOL... shouldn't have expected any different.

Nevermind folks, I will stop posting on this subject. Any questions? Ask the expert.

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

---

While connie may have not tried it, I SURE have. I work and know many people that use this bedding for many different animals, and the smaller the animal, the less you want the bedding wet. You will see, I promise. I notice NO smell with the pine pellets at all without the misting.

Whatever works I guess. Congrats on the coupons.:D

use a TINY bit of water, it should barely turn darker brown as your spraying it.. then turn back to normal colour seconds after you spray it. If you apply the right amount of water, it will take a good 6 or 7 minutes to swell up some.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stangs13

While connie may have not tried it, I SURE have. I work and know many people that use this bedding for many different animals, and the smaller the animal, the less you want the bedding wet. You will see, I promise. I notice NO smell with the pine pellets at all without the misting.

Whatever works I guess. Congrats on the coupons.:D

---

Keep this simple point in mind... pine pellets that have been very lightly misted still have less moisture in them then then normal kiln dired shreeded aspen or pine.

The pellets do not become "wet"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcavana

Keep this simple point in mind... pine pellets that have been very lightly misted still have less moisture in them then then normal kiln dired shreeded aspen or pine.

The pellets do not become "wet"

---

This is why pine shavings smell so much...while DRY pelleted shavings dont. Its because there dry.

No point in arguing about it when I now know that it works... so once again I will bow out... or "take the hi road" as others might put it...

:gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcavana

No point in arguing about it when I now know that it works... so once again I will bow out... or "take the hi road" as others might put it...

:gj:

---

Ok then.:D

I've never used this product. I've seen it at TSC though. It seems expensive. Does it really hold down the smell longer than pine shavings?

Yes, it really does amazing thing about keeping the odor down. Plus, it isn't as expensive as it seems because you only have to use a very small amount.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kc261

Yes, it really does amazing thing about keeping the odor down. Plus, it isn't as expensive as it seems because you only have to use a very small amount.

---

Do you know how many cement tubs you can fill with one bag?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LarryPetty

Do you know how many cement tubs you can fill with one bag?

---

Just use enough to barely cover the bottom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcavana

I lied. I am replying one more time.

I will continue to spray a light mist of water on the pellets any time I use them in the future because it worked. There was little to no airborn dust, and it took a LOT longer to stink then normal. Didn't make sense to me either how it worked... so I emailed the manufacturer.

Here is my email:

COMMENTS: Hello,

Have a question for you. Not sure if you are aware of this but a large
number of my peers are using your equine fresh pine pelletts for pet /
breeding rats. It is a superior prodect to keep smell down, and works quite
well all around. Normally it is just dumped into the tank or tub and used
as is without adding any water.

Recently I noticed that the bag gave directions to apply a fine mist of
water to the pellets once it is laid. Just to experiment I did this with my
rats. I put just enough pellets down to cover the bottom of the tank and
then sprayed it for about a second with a fine mist. The pellets swelled up
a litte, then ultimately became totally dry again.

While misting did break the pellets down a littleI noticed that after heavy
use there is little to no airborn dust from the pelletts. It also somehow
has kept the smell down even more compared to laying down without the
misting.

My question is, why am I experiencing these results? Anyone who uses pine
pellets knows as soon as they get peed on they break down into the saw dust.
Why would misting with water prior to use end up lowering the amount of
airborn dust when the slight misting seems to add no lasting humidity to the
pine?


Mike Cavanaugh


Here is the Response:

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the email. It would seem to me that your methods and results
are great for your desired outcome.

On a microscopic level, I can speculate the following : By applying a fine
mist of water to the product, the pellet surface swells (or becomes rough) .
This surface swelling is the wood fiber bundles absorbing the small amount
of water thus the appearance of the product drying out. By
opening up the fiber bundles in this way, as the animal urinates the product
will absorb faster due to the greater surface area of the pellet from the
swelling process. Plus the pellet will have a higher moisture content which
will also result in faster moisture absorption because water molecules have
a high molecular attraction for one another.

When you absorb the urine quickly it has little time to grow the bacteria
that cause the odor thus giving better odor control and as well keeps the
dust to a minimum.

I am mailing out some coupons for the time you took to email - thank you again!

Cindee Kohagen
PlanetWise Products

---

Interesting explanation... still look forward to trying this product but not sure when I'll get to!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Interesting explanation... still look forward to trying this product but not sure when I'll get to!

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you should like come in tommarow. We has powas, and lots of pelleted shavings!!:D

LOL I'll try...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

LOL I'll try...

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I will be doing nothing but unloading feed and NEW shavings, maybe you will be the first customer for the the new pine pellets9 they are better than the old ones, and that is saying alot.:D

Well I am not working tomorrow so I should have time to go down there... we'll see how it goes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Well I am not working tomorrow so I should have time to go down there... we'll see how it goes.

---

hokay.

Yesterday's news works wonders. Doesn't remove the smell as much as Pine but it doesn't have as much dust, kind of just turns into soggy newspaper and then dries. I like it, but some people hate it.

Ironic that this post should be bumped.

Anyways, I'm hoping to use this same method. If the sawdust is such an issue when it's broken down, then why aren't we sifting the sawdust out everyday that gets broken down by pee? Besides, as he said, he's not soaking the pellets, but misting them.

Anyways, this is what we are using for the mice now, and it seems to be working just fine with a light misting. It cuts the dust pretty damn well and doesn't have any ill affect on urine absorbancy or odor control.

Hmmm I might just have to try this. I was using a mix of aspen and equine fresh up until last week. I tried solely equine fresh on one cage and it killed almost all of the smell plus its soooooo much easier to clean. I'll give this a shot next time I clean out the cages.