Oh my god, please not IBD.

Last night right before I went to bed, I was checking on my CH females I acquired in april. Most are doing well, but some are still problem feeders, and at present I am force feeding about 5 of them (out of 20). I always look at the problem feeders before I go to bed to make sure they're all doing ok. 4 of them were, and when I came to the last one, I saw her belly up and immediated thought she was dead. I opened her tub and she was not, she was just sitting there, upturned. I know this is not uncommon, but this is a hatchling and I have never seen one do this. I flipped her over and the she immediated started doing a "spider-style" wobble. I became worried that because she is NOT a spider, she should NOT be doing this. I took some videos to see what you guys think. I'm hoping that I'm just in a panic because I read Jen Harrison's story yesterday. Please tell me what you think:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...08-08_0224.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...08-08_0238.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...08-08_0241.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...08-08_0242.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...08-08_1317.jpg

That last video was taken this morning. If this is IBD, what are the chances the rest of my collection has been infected?

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

That last video was taken this morning. If this is IBD, what are the chances the rest of my collection has been infected?

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That definitely looks like something to be concerned about, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet (IBD). If it is IBD, then chances are good that the rest of the CH babies will get it as well. Hopefully your quarantine procedures are good enough to prevent the rest of your collection from getting it as IBD is highly contagious.

Right now I would keep the snake separate from the others and just observe it. Those symptoms could be from a number of things including a genetic disorder or exposure to elevated temperatures, but until you can confirm that it isn't contagious you should assume that it may be transmitted to other snakes.

Good luck!

If she is not dead, she will be very soon.

VET ASAP.

It may or may not be IBD. It may be a neurological issue in this particular animal.

The only way you will know is if you get a necropsy done ASAP.

And if it is, your whole collection will have to be destroyed.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

If she is not dead, she will be very soon.

VET ASAP.

It may or may not be IBD. It may be a neurological issue in this particular animal.

The only way you will know is if you get a necropsy done ASAP.

And if it is, your whole collection will have to be destroyed.

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Oh my god.

I'm sorry your snakes aren't doing so well. :tears:

That is very terrible, the animal looks even worse with the concave stomach. I would never jump on the IBD band wagon right away, but a vet trip is definitely in order.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Oh my god.

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I'm sorry...

But you cannot take this type of thing lightly, especially if she JUST started exhibiting these signs.

I really think you need to take her to the Vet and have a necropsy done to conclude whether or not it is just in this animal or if it really is something that can be contagious.

I really really hope for your sake it isn't.

Keep us updated.

Ditto to everything that Heather said. I also noticed in your sig that you have a bumblebee coming soon. I would make arrangements for the breeder to hang onto for you until you have the necropsy done to rule out infectious disease.

I am so very sorry.

Good luck man, try your best to remain positive; thinking of all the bad things that could be will not make this any easier. Get to the vet ASAP and let us know how it goes.

Ok lets say it is IBD, how is it transmitted, if I have other snakes in the same room, is it likely they have it, or is it just contact, or what? I only quarantined for 3 months, this snake was with the rest of my collection, I moved it 2 floors away from the other snakes but crap...I'm so scared.

wow .. I am so sorry.

Get her in and tested! Also, if it is IBD, I thinak you for taking videos. It sucks hardcore for you, but it will help people like me. I have heard what it looks like and how to "test" for it, but never seen anything like that in video.

IBD

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...y-disease.aspx

http://www.pkreptiles.com/informatio...s/ibdvirus.asp

IBD is a serious, fatal viral infection of boid snakes, first identified in the mid-1970s. It is thought to be a retrovirus. The disease has been seen in large collections in Europe, Africa, the United States and more recently, in Australia. Several cases of IBD have recently been diagnosed in Italy and the Canary Islands. Because the transport of captive snakes in the pet trade and between different zoological institutions frequently occurs, and snakes can harbor and shed the virus before manifesting overt clinical signs, we can expect this virus to spread worldwide eventually. The incidence of IBD in wild snakes is unknown at this time. Herpetologists have many names for this disease, such as twisty, stargazing disease and boid encephalitis.

In boa constrictors, the first signs may include off and on regurgitation, and some develop head tremors. Dysecdysis (abnormal shedding) may occur. Some develop chronic regurgitation and anorexia (they stop eating). Not all infected snakes regurgitate, however. Boas lose weight and may develop clogged nares (nostrils), stomatitis or pneumonia. The disease can rapidly progress to nervous system signs, such as disorientation, corkscrewing of the head and neck, holding the head in abnormal and unnatural positions, rolling onto the back or stargazing.

Clinical signs are quite variable. Regurgitation and signs of central nervous system disease are commonly seen in boa constrictors. Stomatitis, pneumonia, undifferentiated cutaneous sarcomas, leukemia and lymphoproliferative disorders have all been seen. Burmese pythons generally show signs of central nervous system disease without showing the respiratory signs. Regurgitation is not usually seen in Burmese pythons.

Pythons with IBD often develop neurological signs earlier than boas, and these signs are often more pronounced and obvious. Pythons don’t regurgitate as often as boas will. Pythons often show a progressive loss of motor function, usually in the back half of the snake, which may lead to bloating and constipation. Both boas and pythons may hold their tongues out longer when flicking. Chronic pneumonia in boids that is not responsive to antibiotic therapy and nebulization therapy may actually be IBD. Some snakes with IBD are chronically shedding the virus and are capable of spreading it throughout a collection, before clinical signs of the sick snake are realized.

The snake mite (Ophionyssus natricis) is suspected to be a vector, passing the virus from one snake to another. Often, with an outbreak of IBD, the snakes also have concurrent mite problems. Other possible ways that the virus can be transmitted include direct contact between infected and noninfected snakes, contaminated bedding, venereal transmission and intrauterine transmission to developing embryos in viviparous species and to eggs in oviparous species, although the direct route of transmission has not yet been identified.

There is still much to be learned about this terrible disease. Blood tests may show signs of viral infection initially, but often the snake will develop secondary bacterial infections due to the immunosuppressive capabilities of this virus. Sometimes the classic inclusion bodies produced by this virus are found in the snakes’ red or white blood cells. A presumptive diagnosis can be made by biopsying esophageal tonsillar crypts, or biopsy of the liver, pancreas, kidney or stomach, in addition to running a complete blood count and plasma chemistry panel. The history and physical examination are also helpful in trying to make a diagnosis. The classic inclusion bodies can be seen in the cytoplasm of certain cells; however, the absence of inclusion bodies does not rule out this disease. The characteristic inclusion bodies found in the cytoplasm are seen in epidermal cells, oral mucosal epithelial cells, visceral epithelial cells and neurons.

All boid snakes should be considered susceptible. While this disease has not been identified in snakes other than boas and pythons, it is not known at this time whether other types of snakes can harbor or transmit this virus. Also, the primary host of IBD has not been identified.

Dr. Elliot Jacobson, at the University of Florida, College of Veterinary Medicine, is currently working on developing serologic tests, but this will take time and research money.

Affected snakes either die acutely or starve slowly after several years of anorexia. It is possible to keep a snake alive by force-feeding, but one should not expect a snake to recover from IBD. Infected snakes are chronic carriers and are capable of spreading this disease to other snakes, so euthanasia is recommended if a firm diagnosis is made. Many other diseases can present with the same or similar clinical signs, so euthanasia should not be performed solely based on clinical signs.

Infected snakes should be euthanized. All new snakes should be quarantined for a minimum of 90 days prior to introduction to an established collection. Recommendations for boas is a 6-month quarantine period. Mite control and elimination is essential. Fiberglass cages that housed infected snakes should be thoroughly disinfected with bleach and then left out in the sun to dry prior to housing another snake. Wooden cages, unless sealed with urethane or some other impervious sealant, should be discarded. The same holds true for wooden hide boxes and cage decorations.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

I'm sorry...

But you cannot take this type of thing lightly, especially if she JUST started exhibiting these signs.

I really think you need to take her to the Vet and have a necropsy done to conclude whether or not it is just in this animal or if it really is something that can be contagious.

I really really hope for your sake it isn't.

Keep us updated.

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Whoa. I don't disagree with taking the snake to the vet, but I do disagree about a necropsy. The snake isn't dead and I wouldn't suggest euthanizing it unless it is determined that the condition is fatal.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Ok lets say it is IBD, how is it transmitted, if I have other snakes in the same room, is it likely they have it, or is it just contact, or what?

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That is an interesting question. I have another .. wondering to add to that. How do places like BHB and NERD prevent stuff like this from spreading? would they have to destroy their entire collections? Are they just relying on an insurance policy to keep them going through something like that?

Well it doesn't look good -- but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's IBD.

IMO - at this point it looks as tho if she isn't dead soon she's not far from it -- find a good reptile vet in your area give them a call and let them know what you've got and take her in (dead or alive) for testing asap -- better to sacrifice the one to know what you have than to sit around waiting for the rest to start falling.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Whoa. I don't disagree with taking the snake to the vet, but I do disagree about a necropsy. The snake isn't dead and I wouldn't suggest euthanizing it unless it is determined that the condition is fatal.

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That may be the case, but to be able to determine what the problem is, you MUST do a necropsy.

In my mind, it is better to be safe than sorry...

If an animal like that was reacting that way, I would euthanize immediately to prevent any possible spreading of anything, and to prevent the animal from suffering any longer.

Some may not agree, and that is fine.. but I don't see the point of prolonging the suffering of that animal, as it already looks like it is on deaths door.

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Originally Posted by cuda

That is an interesting question. I have another .. wondering to add to that. How do places like BHB and NERD prevent stuff like this from spreading? would they have to destroy their entire collections? Are they just relying on an insurance policy to keep them going through something like that?

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Good quarantine procedures. Every reputable breeder should have an excellent quarantine procedure that would prevent the spread of disease from any incoming snake. Many breeders will also quarantine their animals after coming back from a show in case a participant transmitted something from handling different snakes.

Jesus Christ, shes dead, I'm having a panic attack here.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Jesus Christ, shes dead, I'm having a panic attack here.

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Breathe...

And take her to the vet.

Don't freeze her body either.

Just go to a Herp Vet for a necropsy.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

If an animal like that was reacting that way, I would euthanize immediately to prevent any possible spreading of anything, and to prevent the animal from suffering any longer.

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Sorry, I only took a look at the first video and it didn't seem bad enough to euthanize the snake. Now that I saw the last video I would have to agree with you. The snake looks pretty close to death or at the very least suffering quite a bit. :(

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Jesus Christ, shes dead, I'm having a panic attack here.

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Sorry to hear that. Follow Heather's advice .. she sounds like she knows her stuff!

A number of thing pass through my head that it could be - anything from a temperature spike that fried her brain to parasites, to malnutrition could have caused what you have seen. Yes you need to be concerned but you need to take quick action to find out what it is before you panic.

Good luck! :gj:

Just got off the phone with the vet, they can't do it but they can sent it to Guelph for me and its $250. I've got $5 in the bank right now. Gotta borrow from mom and dad I guess...no bumblebee for me...

This is exactly why it is important to know who has had it in the past.

alan belcher and wyatt are both known but there are many who just hush it up and say nothing.

I hold Jen completely responsible for her problems BUT had she known about wyatt previously AND had proper quarantine proceedures in place, she would not have had the wipe out she did.

DO NOT FREEZE THE BODY.

Take it in or send it to the guy in Fla.

If you've got IBD, clear up some freezer space. It's the only responsible thing you can do.

What do I do with the body, fridge?

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

What do I do with the body, fridge?

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How long will you need to store it before you can have it sent out?

Can IBD really sit in wait that long? I was under the impression that it tends to kill pythons quickly, especially hatchlings. I mean, if he's had them since April and no other snakes have come in contact with them, could IBD really linger that long in hatchlings?

I'm so sorry about your girl though, here's hoping the necropsy comes back to you negative.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

How long will you need to store it before you can have it sent out?

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I can bring it in today.

Then either put it in the fridge or just leave it at room temps until you can leave.

Sooner is better.

Sorry you lost the snake, but I agree with Tosha, there are a few different reasons like she stated why snakes can start displaying neurological symptoms.

So definitely don't chalk it up automatically as IBD, and work yourself up that you'll have to euthanize your whole collection.

Wish for the best, keep your chin up Peter.

:( So sorry for your loss man. I know how tough it may be. I agree with what has been said previously in regards to getting a necropsy done and to take ALL possible precautions to keep whatever it was (assuming it's contagious) away from the rest of your collection. I will keep my fingers crossed for you that it's not something transmittable. But please, let us know what you find out.

I am so sorry to hear about your snake.

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Ditto to everything that Heather said.

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I concur.

I have to wait at least 2 hours, I put her in the fridge.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

I have to wait at least 2 hours, I put her in the fridge.

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If you need help getting the necropsy done and tests for IBD, ill donate a little to help you out. GET IT DONE ASAP. Feel free to PM me with your paypal address. - Alicia Holmes

I can't even comprehend this situation right now, Theres no way I can freeze all my animals. If this is IBD, my entire universe will come crashing down. Just in cash anyone wants to know, I got these CH females from "Rodent Kings". An ontario based feeder company.

Do you guys think its worth it to move my entire hatching rack to another room? Away from my adults? Or would it be too late?

I am "prevented" from going to Fauna but someone should do a check and see if they have any feedback over there.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I am "prevented" from going to Fauna but someone should do a check and see if they have any feedback over there.

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On it.

Dont freak out. Think logically and do what Heather says... She knows her stuff and gave you incredible advice.

Heres some calming vibes coming your way!

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...t=Rodent+Kings

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

If you need help getting the necropsy done and tests for IBD, ill donate a little to help you out. GET IT DONE ASAP. Feel free to PM me with your paypal address. - Alicia Holmes

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Seriously, I wouldn't mind chipping in either! :gj:

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...t=Rodent+Kings

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That does me a TON of good Moo.

Frickin wench.....knows I can't open links, mutter mutter, can't go there, typical teasing female....mutter mutter swear word mutter.

Is it possible for a snake to die of IBD without exhibiting any of the symptoms?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

That does me a TON of good Moo.

Frickin wench.....knows I can't open links, mutter mutter, can't go there, typical teasing female....mutter mutter swear word mutter.

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LMAO!!! Whats your email? Do screenshots help any?
<3 SORRY WES! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

LMAO!!! Whats your email? Do screenshots help any?
<3 SORRY WES! :rofl:

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wpollock3@yahoo.com but just a quick synopsis would be sufficient.

You got the snakes from rodentkings?

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Originally Posted by cuda

You got the snakes from rodentkings?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

Yes.

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I guess i was just surprised at that. Went to their site and saw nothing that would indicate they would deal with anything but rodents .. unless I was at the wrong site .. maybe?

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Originally Posted by cuda

I guess i was just surprised at that. Went to their site and saw nothing that would indicate they would deal with anything but rodents .. unless I was at the wrong site .. maybe?

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They were CH. I assume he bought them cheap from whoever was importing them and was selling them to make money.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

They were CH. I assume he bought them cheap from whoever was importing them and was selling them to make money.

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RGR. That being the case, I bet there are not many people familiar with them and their products.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

They were CH. I assume he bought them cheap from whoever was importing them and was selling them to make money.

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Did you get any names when dealing with these people?