Unfair bias due to visiting a sick reptile breeder

I answered an ad that some one had in WI selling a mojave baby ball python.
We started exchanging emails and I mentioned wanting to breed my female bal python. He brought up a possible breeding loan.
ANd then he asked me about a former breeder in my area, Jen Harrison, who had that horrible problem with an unknown virus.
I had met her before she got the snake in, and had been in her home ONCE, again before the snake came in the mail.
She sexed one snake for me, and that snake now lives with some nice people in IL. and they have gotten other snakes in since that time and never had a problem.

SO now he wants to back out of the deal (nothing in writing yet), because I went to her house once. And says I should tell people I associated with her so they know I was at her house.. once.
Here are portions of the emails.

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Carol,
If you don't find a male to breed this year maybe you'd consider a breeding loan? Do you know what your female weighs in grams? Do you have a picture of her?

Can I ask where you met Jen at?

She advertised on the Craigslist about probing/sexing snakes. She then had us come to her house and she probed my snakes.

Unfortunately since you had your snakes at her house I'm going to have to pass on the breeding loan. I just can't take a chance being the virus was so devastating and still hasn't been identified. To be honest you need to let everyone that you deal with know you had your snakes at her house. I do this for a living and couldn't afford a loss like she incurred. Please do the responsible thing and let people know of your dealings with her. If they find out from another source they may treat you the same way they treated her, most of which was unfair and uncalled for. I hope you understand my situation.

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So now because I went to her house ONCE, I am now piriah too?
I know he is sympathetic, but really???

He has the right to refuse to deal with you for no reason at all. So he is erring on the side of caution, which I do not blame him for.

Maybe he IS overreacting some, but it's his collection at stake, so it's his call to make.
Just my opinion.

It's a shame but since no one knows what the virus is or how it is really transmitted, this person is not willing to take a chance that there is a chance (it may be a small chance) that the snakes you brought to Jen's house could have carried it back to your collection.
Personally, I would not do a breeding loan either.
Until this thing is identified, any snake in contact with the collection that was infected is suspect.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

He has the right to refuse to deal with you for no reason at all. So he is erring on the side of caution, which I do not blame him for.

Maybe he IS overreacting some, but it's his collection at stake, so it's his call to make.
Just my opinion.

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I agree...

You may or may not be happy with it, but the fact is that the info is out there, and that this person is very much looking out for his number one.

You cannot fault someone for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Maybe he IS overreacting some, but it's his collection at stake, so it's his call to make.
Just my opinion.

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Your opinion is on the money IMO. :D
It is his call whether or not he wants to do a breeding loan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

He has the right to refuse to deal with you for no reason at all. So he is erring on the side of caution, which I do not blame him for.

Maybe he IS overreacting some, but it's his collection at stake, so it's his call to make.
Just my opinion.

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I could have not said it any better!

The bottom line is that while Jen Harrison's story is a very tragic one indeed, there are threads on other sites calling for placing all snakes that she has owned or has ever been in any contact with in a freezer to eradicate the unknown disease that contaminated her collection. I can't imagine that any breeder anywhere will risk any connection to her name whatsoever. That is as plain and straight forward as you can say it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

He has the right to refuse to deal with you for no reason at all. So he is erring on the side of caution, which I do not blame him for.

Maybe he IS overreacting some, but it's his collection at stake, so it's his call to make.
Just my opinion.

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nailed it!


:sweeet:

I honestly wouldn't be able to know what to do in this situation. Even though you were only there ONCE, and you were there BEFORE it happened.. your chances are extremely low of ever having any type of contact with the disease..
But no one can be sure that the chances are 0, which is why it probably will stick around until the disease is identified.

Does anyone have Jens story about this or a news article or something? I know very little about the situation.

Unfortunately -- I have to agree with the rest -- it's his prerogative to change his mind and look out for himself and his collection. If you were there before she even got the sick snake - if indeed that snake was the carrier then you can feel secure in the knowledge you have a clean collection - but that doesn't mean others will or should.


As it were -- I almost bought a snake from the breeder that dropped off the rack that she couldn't pick up at the show because her daughter was sick -- until I realized that he was there at the time the animals were getting sick. Unfair perhaps - but I'm not taking chances.

Good luck!

If I went to someone's house and their dogs/cats/marmosets were carrying rabies(and the virus wasn't advanced enough to show signs), and it was possible that I had gotten exposed to that virus, and then went home and possibly exposed my household to said virus, how would that make you feel?

How would it make you feel if you exposed your entire collection of snakes to something that would kill them and it could have been prevented?

This is why only people I completely trust(maybe 3 people total) with my snakes, and I know their collections are clean, are the only people who come into my snake room.

Well. It is his perogative... but this is someone that was considering a breeding loan with you (a total stranger)... so yeah.

I would only do loans with people I knew really well and was 100%sure of their QT etc.

Just saying... what if you'd never mentioned this to him? How hard would he have questioned you to find out his information?

He seemed pretty quick to get his hands on your snake...

Bruce

I lived near her and he asked if I knew her due to our proximity.
I understand where he is coming from, and not wanting to take the chance.. its the other things he said. That make me feel like a pirah.
I only have one ball python left, and the others have gone to private homes OR to a rescue center. I rescued them over the last year and finally found a great reptile rescue to work with. AND they have taken all of those to vets. I have done the same with my own snakes.
I just don't want to feel like a person with leoprosy or that I have to wear a sign, that I once entered a diseased place. I am around livestock, and people go to the pound and to humane societies as well as a vets office all the time. And there are sick animals there.

I understand his point of view. But I don't want a stigma either.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I honestly wouldn't be able to know what to do in this situation. Even though you were only there ONCE, and you were there BEFORE it happened.. your chances are extremely low of ever having any type of contact with the disease..
But no one can be sure that the chances are 0, which is why it probably will stick around until the disease is identified.

Does anyone have Jens story about this or a news article or something? I know very little about the situation.

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go to her website. She's got a very open, blog about the events, the vets, diagnoses (or starting lack thereof), detailing what took place.

http://www.pinkladyconstrictors.com/

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Originally Posted by sweety314

go to her website. She's got a very open, blog about the events, the vets, diagnoses (or starting lack thereof), detailing what took place.

http://www.pinkladyconstrictors.com/

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I do not believe her blog there is up to date. Actually, from what I've seen, there isn't any one place to go to get the whole story.

Here is a link to one of the more recent installments on fauna. WARNING! Not for the faint of heart. And it wouldn't hurt to have a tissue box and/or a puke bucket handy.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...&postcount=383

To get back to the original post, I agree with all those that say it is the guy's right to change his mind about the breeding loan, regardless of his reason.

As far as the rest, you'll have to decide how you feel about it. The fact that the only time you were there was before the disease is believed to have entered her collection, and the fact that it has been so long, probably means there is no problem. And if you are ok with that, then I wouldn't worry about what he said. As pointed out by Becky, those that want to be super-protective about their collections (and there are LOTS of people like that, for good reason) will not rely on strangers volunteering that kind of information. They just won't let the stranger and/or the strangers snakes come in to contact with their snakes.

Wow...that is one very disturbing story on so many levels. The part that really got me was killing all of them because the risk was just so great, except for the three "pet snakes" that had some emotional value. Sounds like a business decision to me.

And if people want to flame me for expressing that opinion, flame away. I wish now I had not read that story.

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Wow...that is one very disturbing story on so many levels. The part that really got me was killing all of them because the risk was just so great, except for the three "pet snakes" that had some emotional value. Sounds like a business decision to me.

And if people want to flame me for expressing that opinion, flame away. I wish now I had not read that story.

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Sonya, we don't "flame" here. Having said that, I will attempt to explain my feelings about that sort of incident. You may well not agree with them but that's fine too.

Were I to face the horrible situation of having a deadly virus in the collection - one that as yet is not fully understood, one that wipes out entire collections, one that seems untreatable for the most part - and in that after full testing and advice from a variety of experienced vets that they could not explain nor really treat the collection - nor could they guarantee anything about the other seemingly healthy snakes being carriers....then yes I'd face the horrible decision to euthanize.

For you that may be a coldhearted business decision but I don't see it that way. My family's heart and soul are in our snakes, they are not dollar and cents animals but I do not believe we could live with possibly being the vector of this horrible virus spreading. Could we live with never attending another snake show because we might carry this virus from our collection? Could we live with never having another snake owning friend enter our house for fear they'd be exposed and carry home to their own beloved collection? Could we sit everyday wondering when the next outbreak will cause these glorious animals to sicken, suffer and die because there seems no effective treatment for them? Could we live with knowing that we may have shipped out hatchlings exposed before the first adults died and therefore put our friends and customers at a horribly unacceptable risk?

Sometimes Sonya, when you breed animals you make tough, gut wrenching decisions. I doubt most breeders would call those decisions just cold "business" decisions. I highly doubt most would easily come to the conclusion that no other recourse is there but to face the harsh reality of responsibility. That responsibility is to the snakes, to yourself and to the greater community of snakekeepers out there. Refusing to face that because it would hurt your heart may end up spreading a deadly virus to other collections. Could your heart deal with that?

I pray I'll never be faced with a decision like this. That's why we work so hard with QT procedures and such like to strive to avoid this awful thing happening. I pray more though, that if it ever did happen, I'd have the guts to face what might have to be done.

I was not familiar with the story until now, but to be honest, I probably would have made the same decision as him.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

For you that may be a coldhearted business decision but I don't see it that way. My family's heart and soul are in our snakes, they are not dollar and cents animals but I do not believe we could live with possibly being the vector of this horrible virus spreading.

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My point being she DID keep potential vectors, the ones that had emotional value. If the virus is that dangerous and it requires such dramatic action one would think it is an all or nothing proposition. To keep some because they are “special” changes things quite a bit in my opinion. The rest were not "special" and not worth keeping, even though the risk remained the same.

didnt she say she sent a G-stripe back to its owner? i know it sounds crazy but i dont know if i'd take it back...

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

My point being she DID keep potential vectors, the ones that had emotional value. If the virus is that dangerous and it requires such dramatic action one would think it is an all or nothing proposition. To keep some because they are “special” changes things quite a bit in my opinion. The rest were not worth keeping, even though the risk remained.

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Then for me, in my mind, she made the wrong call. If the decision is to put down any snake possibly carrying this deadly virus, then that means all snakes, not avoiding just the ones you especially like. Hard decisions in the end must be made with your brain, not your heart - though my heart feels for anyone facing such an awful decision.

I am glad you see my point. She spared three, her first ball python (which was surely exposed) and the two snakes that belonged to her little girl. The rest were frozen.

I do now LOL. I thought you were feeling that she shouldn't have put down any of the snakes at all. Now I see what you really meant was you were surprised she put some down but kept the "pet" ones. Gotcha! :D

wow, i hope were never faced with something like that.. how terribly sad.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I do now LOL. I thought you were feeling that she shouldn't have put down any of the snakes at all. Now I see what you really meant was you were surprised she put some down but kept the "pet" ones. Gotcha! :D

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This is typical jenn from day one.

I never sold any snakes at all....except for the two.....

I never had a sick snake.....except for the ones.....

I put them all down....except for .........

It is a damn shame it happened. It's also a damn shame she continued to get more snakes while she KNEW she had this problem. It's a damn shame that she KNEW she didn't have proper quarantine proceedures yet continued to aquire new snakes.

I like jenn. I feel bad for her.

She also brought 90% of this on herself.

That keeps getting swept aside in all the emotional turmoil involved with her. I think it bears further thought.

This just reinforces how important it is to know who your buying your BP's from, saving a few bucks isn't worth the risk.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is typical jenn from day one.

I never sold any snakes at all....except for the two.....

I never had a sick snake.....except for the ones.....

I put them all down....except for .........

It is a damn shame it happened. It's also a damn shame she continued to get more snakes while she KNEW she had this problem. It's a damn shame that she KNEW she didn't have proper quarantine proceedures yet continued to aquire new snakes.

I like jenn. I feel bad for her.

She also brought 90% of this on herself.

That keeps getting swept aside in all the emotional turmoil involved with her. I think it bears further thought.

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I agree 1000% :)

Hi,

Just to say last I read the person who owns the g-stripe has changed his mind about having it shipped back.


dr del

Only way I'd accept a snake from her was if it was dead and preserved in formalin and the jar it was in had been soaked in ammonia beforehand(or just put in a sealed bag filled with ammonia..). Or maybe not.. the disease could have attached itself to the outside of the bag..

Even after coming home from shows, I spray MYSELF with Provent-A-Mite or Raid(the snakes just get treated with PAM not the Raid, LoL). I don't take chances. You never know who is vending at what show, who has touched what animal before you have, or if someone is selling someone else's animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is typical jenn from day one. It is a damn shame it happened. It's also a damn shame she continued to get more snakes while she KNEW she had this problem.

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Yeah it appears she bought snakes and she sold snakes and she sold used racks after the outbreak. But of course there was plenty of freezer room so buying snakes was not an issue.

She also mentions she was tight on money (ex-husband and phone bills, call Judge Joe Brown) and she went over 2 weeks without feeding her collection, even the babies, she had them on a “maintenance” diet.

Cry me a river.

In a recent post from Jen on a different forum, she did end up euthinizing the two kings (mind you this virus only ever affected the BP's, never other species). The racks went to a mechanic that wanted to use them for storage. All the tubs went to be recycled. Spoon, her first snake ever was kept, and the Gstripe, at the request of the owner. He did not want it put down. Jen stated that she is out of the reptile hobby, and is simply keeping these two as pets only. The BP she kept was her first snake that got her started in the hobby. She could not afford to keep the other animals, and couldn't give them away if she tried, so what else would you have her do?

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

She also mentions she was tight on money (ex-husband and phone bills, call Judge Joe Brown) and she went over 2 weeks without feeding her collection, even the babies, she had them on a “maintenance” diet.

Cry me a river.

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Sadly I think that was the main reason behind the big freeze -- she realized that she could no longer make any money off snakes and they were getting too expensive to keep around. She could have saved herself a lot of grief if she'd a done it 10 months ago when she realized the situation was out of hand - as was suggested but I think the $$$ got in the way of rational thought.

Of the three that she didn't freeze - one apparently got sick so she froze it as well - the other was the G-stripe on loan that the guy told her she could keep or freeze (IMO he shouldn't have given her the choice but at least he's done kinda right) and the third she is keeping. So she could still have two potential carriers -- or a year from now the Dr. could tell her the virus can't hang around that long and she'll have a nice big breeder G-stripe and a female to start over with. :O

Spoon is a male, so she will have 2 males. My understanding is that the breeder asked her not to kill the g stripe, and the two kings were not getting sick, but she thought better of keeping that many animals. The only BP she was planning on keeping was Spoon.

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Originally Posted by FloridaHogs

She could not afford to keep the other animals, and couldn't give them away if she tried, so what else would you have her do?

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Okay then, we got to the point. It was a business decision. Too expensive to feed them. Anyone that has ever faced euthanasia knows its all about business, yuppers. Now that we have gotten to the point there is no fuss huh?

Anyone want to place odds on when she reappears with a "clean" batch? I bet it is less than a year. Maybe a new nick, maybe on craigslist, I do predict it won't take long.

As confusing and contradictory as it can be, it would be best to let Jen speak for herself instead of relaying what you think she wrote someplace else.

By the way, have you heard about the retic that at the kid all the way to his knees in Az? It was a bit over ten years ago.

I never heard of it either.

Oh well, it's possible.....

[QUOTE=wilomn;860113]As confusing and contradictory as it can be, it would be best to let Jen speak for herself instead of relaying what you think she wrote someplace else.
[QUOTE]

Perhaps someone stole her login and password from other forums, and she was unable to address the false info posted under her name. How many was it? 60? 80? More? Put in a freezer? Dumped on a friends farmland and burned and buried (God please let them have been gone before that part) because they were a disease risk? Yet harboring others that were an equal risk because they meant something to her and her child?

Have you ever euthanized an animal that could have lived many years, and if so, did it take a little bit of your soul? If you have a soul it probably did.

Yes I realize I am being harsh and judgemental, and it seems very appropriate. No apologies. Last post in this thread.

Okay Original Poster here...
I have been emailing Jen on occasion, and it is truly a sad thing that happened to her.

But why should I have to be marked OR stigmatized because I went to her house ONCE.

And a virus does not live on a person for 6 months. I can understand being cautious and paranoid about wanting to protect your investments, pets, and business/babies..
But we live in the age of science, and reason and enlightenment. Lets try to keep the heebie jeebies, "boy" germs, and fake cooties as child hood games.
I could submit cultures from my snakes, the building, and things from my home.
But I shouldn't have to.
Can any one here say they have NEVER been in casual contact with some one who had something bad happen to their collection? IBD, RI, or other even mites..
Just saying I empathise with her, and with the fellow who suddenly said "I can't take that chance."
But I and others should not be stigmatized for something that happened to another person and I was in her home once.

Carol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is typical jenn from day one.

I never sold any snakes at all....except for the two.....

I never had a sick snake.....except for the ones.....

I put them all down....except for .........

It is a damn shame it happened. It's also a damn shame she continued to get more snakes while she KNEW she had this problem. It's a damn shame that she KNEW she didn't have proper quarantine proceedures yet continued to aquire new snakes.

I like jenn. I feel bad for her.

She also brought 90% of this on herself.

That keeps getting swept aside in all the emotional turmoil involved with her. I think it bears further thought.

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For me, Wes, in the end it was her lack of QT that just got me. I'm sorry but there is just no damn reason in the world to not QT especially when you take in rescues. It's not rocket science, it's not even that hard to do - it's QT. Just something you do, you make it a part of the routine of things, I can't imagine not doing it. Why you'd put your collection at risk in some willy nilly rush to get more snakes I cannot imagine.

I feel sorry for the snakes, I do not feel sorry for her. She's supposed to be the thinking, reasoning, responsible human being in this situation. She had enough experience to know how to do QT properly. If her living situation wasn't such that she could do QT then sorry but she should not have been bringing in any new snakes (especially someone else's morph!). Just because we humans want something, doesn't mean we should get it all the time.

Carol, as much as you don't like this one person's response to your having visited Jen's home, the fact is anyone for any reason can call off a breeding loan. That's their decision and yours to accept it. It's not likely to mean you'll have a big red A imprinted on your forehead dear, it's one person's decision about what they feel is in the best interests of their collection. I've made that call when a snake owning friend came over to visit. I knew he had a snake at home with a simple RI. He knew that due to that he would not be allowed contact with any of our snakes while his was sick and was fine with that. It's not to be rude to anyone but in the end Mike and I make decisions based on what we feel is the most prudent and responsible course of action for our snakes.

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

Okay Original Poster here...
I have been emailing Jen on occasion, and it is truly a sad thing that happened to her.

But why should I have to be marked OR stigmatized because I went to her house ONCE.

And a virus does not live on a person for 6 months. I can understand being cautious and paranoid about wanting to protect your investments, pets, and business/babies..
But we live in the age of science, and reason and enlightenment. Lets try to keep the heebie jeebies, "boy" germs, and fake cooties as child hood games.
I could submit cultures from my snakes, the building, and things from my home.
But I shouldn't have to.
Can any one here say they have NEVER been in casual contact with some one who had something bad happen to their collection? IBD, RI, or other even mites..
Just saying I empathise with her, and with the fellow who suddenly said "I can't take that chance."
But I and others should not be stigmatized for something that happened to another person and I was in her home once.

Carol

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You ask the same question over and over, when most here have said pretty much, Yea, your marked for visiting with her.

It's not fun, no one likes to admit that, but everyone has been saying it in a very nice way with "It's his decision"

Now, just because it's public knowledge of where you been doesn't mean everyone is going to consider you an outcast. I don't know where you got the idea from.

One guy, ONE guy you didn't even know, ONE guy that jumps at the idea of a breeding loan tells you he doesn't want to take the chance, and you all of a sudden consider yourself a pariah of this community? Come one now, does that sound reasonable?

Your the one that made this post, so you really couldn't have been too worried about it, because usually if someone is outcast for one reason or another, they'd most likely want to keep that reason on the down low. At least I would!

In my opinion, you've jumped to conclusions. But now a lot of people know you've been to Jen Harrisons house. People are scared of the virus, there is no denying that. Her story is well known, as you can tell by this thread. NO ONE wants to destroy any of their own animals because of the spread of this virus.

So yea, as much as it sucks, in some peoples eyes your potentially dangerous. In other people's eyes, your just another hobbyist.

6 months isn't that long, if I remember correctly, Jen's virus didn't appear for months. People in this community are scared, this is an unknown virus, with an unknown shedding time, unknown dormancy, unknown carrier state, unknown everything.

6 months is a drop in the bucket, when were you at her house? Didn't this virus infection happen about 6 months ago? People will be thinking about things like that....

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

Okay Original Poster here...
I have been emailing Jen on occasion, and it is truly a sad thing that happened to her.

But why should I have to be marked OR stigmatized because I went to her house ONCE.

And a virus does not live on a person for 6 months. I can understand being cautious and paranoid about wanting to protect your investments, pets, and business/babies..
But we live in the age of science, and reason and enlightenment. Lets try to keep the heebie jeebies, "boy" germs, and fake cooties as child hood games.
I could submit cultures from my snakes, the building, and things from my home.
But I shouldn't have to.
Can any one here say they have NEVER been in casual contact with some one who had something bad happen to their collection? IBD, RI, or other even mites..
Just saying I empathise with her, and with the fellow who suddenly said "I can't take that chance."
But I and others should not be stigmatized for something that happened to another person and I was in her home once.

Carol

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First I would like to address this question...

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

Can any one here say they have NEVER been in casual contact with some one who had something bad happen to their collection? IBD, RI, or other even mites..

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yes.

I have NEVER.

however...this was not an RI...IBD..or even mites.

secondly...yes we do live in the age of science...but even science has not been able to determine what the virus was, so how can you expect anyone to take a chance?

I don't believe this is a matter of "cooties"...cooties won't kill your whole ball python collection. I know this cause Jeff has cooties and all mine are just fine. :rolleyes:

In the end...it is up to the person who is doing business with you weather or not to let this situation..or any other...affect your dealings.


just sayin'

Quote:

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And a virus does not live on a person for 6 months. I can understand being cautious and paranoid about wanting to protect your investments, pets, and business/babies..
But we live in the age of science, and reason and enlightenment. Lets try to keep the heebie jeebies, "boy" germs, and fake cooties as child hood games.

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Since we're dealing with science, reason, and enlightenment, let's consider the fact that many human viruses remain dormant in one's system for the REST OF ONE'S LIFE. Many of them can and do reappear when one's immune system becomes compromised. Example: any virus in the herpes family (including chicken pox). Some viruses can reactivate themselves in one's saliva and continue to infect people with whom one comes in contact. Example: epstein-bar (one of the viruses that causes classic mono). Can we carry viruses that only affect other animals? Yes, but they remain harmless to us and we would never know they are there. Can you be carrying the virus that killed someone else's snakes? Not enough is known about that virus to say yes or no, but I believe the possibility exists.

Contact ed clark, joey capony, rick denman or clarks geckos, my guess is none of them would care if they were breeding jen's snakes.

You should have no problem getting any of them to "help" you out.

Of course, you then get to wear the I'm a Scumbag Too jacket, but it's a small price to pay. Right?

One guy turned you down because he doesn't want to take a chance. Don't get your knickers knotted over it.

Be patient, look around for other breeders or just wait until you can afford the male you want and then breed them yourself.

Honestly I don't know if I'd take a snake on loan from someone who had been at Jen's. I only have half a dozen ball pythons and I'm leary. None of mine have any real value. Someone who's life is in their breeding projects may well, as has been shown, feel quite strongly, and rightly so, about not working with you.

Your honesty is fantastic and don't feel bad about it. At least your word is taken as truth. Better honest than scum.

This story really disturbs me. Not the crying about the loan cancelation, but this outbreak and the freezing of her snakes. I'm fear for my snakes just reading the damn thing! :tears:

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Originally Posted by jorgasm

This story really disturbs me. Not the crying about the loan cancelation, but this outbreak and the freezing of her snakes. I'm fear for my snakes just reading the damn thing! :tears:

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I so agree with you! I looked at the pics, and I could not imagine having to do that to my snakes. I don't understand why they were not just euthanized. I went back to read the thread, but I know I missed bits & pieces. I do feel so horrible for her (Jen) having that happen to her animals. & I would be very terrified of it happening to mine. I actually had someone ask to breed his snake (a normal female) with my Mojave male in exchange for a Mojave baby, and I said no. I do not know him, and I have no idea if his snake is healthy or not. As a matter of fact, my Mojave is still in QT because I've only had him for 2 months, so it is also for his own snake's safety since the season is only a few months away (& he wanted to breed them as early as possible). We should really all be looking out for each other's collections. If I think that any of my snakes could possibly endanger someone else's or vice-versa, those snakes would never cross each other's paths.

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

And a virus does not live on a person for 6 months.

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Carol can you honestly say that you know that as a known fact or are you just guessing?

I agree Jen's story is tragic but it only goes on and on because of one bad decision after another. For example she was called out on the 17th of last month attempting to sell her racks, then on the 24th she told the reptile community that they went to a garage. Last I read she was bashing those who have been on her side attempting to help...

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

Okay Original Poster here...
I have been emailing Jen on occasion, and it is truly a sad thing that happened to her.

But why should I have to be marked OR stigmatized because I went to her house ONCE.

And a virus does not live on a person for 6 months. I can understand being cautious and paranoid about wanting to protect your investments, pets, and business/babies..
But we live in the age of science, and reason and enlightenment. Lets try to keep the heebie jeebies, "boy" germs, and fake cooties as child hood games.
I could submit cultures from my snakes, the building, and things from my home.
But I shouldn't have to.
Can any one here say they have NEVER been in casual contact with some one who had something bad happen to their collection? IBD, RI, or other even mites..
Just saying I empathise with her, and with the fellow who suddenly said "I can't take that chance."
But I and others should not be stigmatized for something that happened to another person and I was in her home once.

Carol

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This is wrong.
Have you heard of HIV?
HIV lies dormant in a human body for at LEAST 6 months. Some people live with HIV their whole lives without having AIDS.
You can not detect HIV after you receive it for approximately 6 months, thus disproving your statement.
A lot of food-borne illnesses also stay dormant for 3-4 months.

I can get backing on this information, so if you want it just let me know. ;]

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

And a virus does not live on a person for 6 months.

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Parvovirus does...

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Originally Posted by MuzeBallPythons

I don't understand why they were not just euthanized.

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In her thread she said she couldn't afford to have them all individually euthanized.

You know it really irks me though sometimes all this feeling bad for Jen that this "happened". This just didn't "happen". This was a direct and horrendous result of someone rushing to expand a collection without due diligence. This wasn't some awful random, could not have been prevented thing. I'm sorry if that sounds like a harsh judgement but we are talking about animals dying and having to be put down here - not someone collecting rare baseball cards!

Look if you don't QT, if you rush into things it's not going to surprise a lot of us if you end up like Jen did. Roll that dice just one time too many on skipping QT or not being careful and this stuff will, not might, will happen. It might not be this devastating but you can't dance with the devil and not end up burnt. The sad thing for me will always be the living animals that pay the price for our human greed and foolishness.

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

In her thread she said she couldn't afford to have them all individually euthanized.

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As I recall her vet told her freezing, especially freezing larger animals, would be extremely painful. Something about ice crystals forming.

I believe her vet also told her he would make a house visit, and give her a price break, but she would have to pay for the drugs. I do not know how much the drugs cost, but I find it hard to believe the drugs themselves could be that outrageiously expensive.

She is asking for donations now, why not have asked for donations to pay for euthanasia drugs? People have pride but I surely would have asked for help if it meant a painless death for my animals.