protein questions

Through selective breeding with multiple lines, my ASF are getting bigger and stronger with each generation. The litter sizes are getting bigger on average too.

I am feeding Mazuri 6F exclusively

Problem is that I am noticing with the bigger litters, more babies are getting eaten in the first day or two of life. If I have a litter of 16, 3 or so are gone the second day. This is happening in all of my groups.

I figure it is either population control, or the mommas trying to get a little more protein for the nursing. I really don't think it is a space issue because it seems to be happening regardless of the size of the breeding group.

So, quality cat food that I have is 30 grams of protien. The Mazuri 6F is 16 or 18 grams of protein. My question is what would the advantages / disadvantages be if I threw a little bit of the cat food in to increase the protein for the nursing moms? I mean still feeding the mazuri mainly, but throwing in a little cat food to up the protein.

Please share your thoughts.

Possibly either try Mazuri 9F, which has a bit more fat in it, or mix in some hog feed/grains, and maybe some high quality senior dog food, such as Dr. Foster & Smith or Wellness(no iams or nutro crap).

The cat food is a bit too high in fat and protein and may ruin their kidneys. Try for the seed mixtures/grain mixture and possibly adding some dog food/hog feed. My mice really thrive on the hog feed, so much so that they don't get lab blocks anymore. They would just waste the blocks and litters would get eaten for lack of protein. I don't feel that 16% protein is enough for mice/ASF rats. Regular rats, yes, with some supplementation of other things(grain mixture).

I personally give them a wide variety of foods. Dog food (a good food high in protein) with Mazuri 6f is their sources of protein. We also allow them veggies from the garden or the grocery. I have in times past given them some peanut butter. They love all of this stuff. I am currently pumping out near 150+ per month now and i have only had a cannibalism problem 2x (both in the same bin). The first time it was a new mom and the first in her bin to produce. The second time was my fault. I didn't realize one of the females was so close to delivery. The babies didn't appear to be weaned yet as everytime i checked on them they would still be nursing. I removed those older babies and the next day another in that bin had babies and they were fine.

I do however often find that in the larger litters, that i might have a dead one once or twice per litter. The only thing I can think of is that they might have been a little weaker. Not able to get to a teat and after a missed meal or two, they just become so weak that they can't nurse. Therefore die. Then the moms 'clean up the mess' by disposing of the dead babies. the moms can use the protein but I think its more of an instinct thing to keep away predators. Not sure if any of that made any sense.

Mine have been having 15 and 16 in each litter on harlan 2018.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

The cat food is a bit too high in fat and protein and may ruin their kidneys.

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Thanks for the replies!

I will look into the hog feed... but that won't be very easy to get here.

Keep in mind, I am thinking feeding mostly Mazuri 6f with some cat food mixed in. here are the numbers. Do you think this would cause kidney trouble?

Mazuri 6F -
Crude Protein 16%
Crude fat 6%
Crude Fiber 5%

Mazuri 9F
Crude Protein 16%
Crude fat 9%
Crude Fiber 5%

Purina Cat Chow Indoor Formula
Crude Protein 30%
Crude fat 9.5%
Crude Fiber 6%

Granted, I have no idea what I am talking about here, but with that said, the formulas all look very similar... the cat chow appears to be like the mazuri 9f, but with twice as much protein.

So if I feed primarily Mazuri 6F and mixed in some cat chow... would that be the same as feeding mazuri 9f plus some extra protein? Or am I looking at all this completely and totaly wrong?

I would try to stay in the 18-22% protein range. We know cats can handle high protein levels because they are carnivores. But since ASFs are omnivores, it's likely their kidneys and other organs wouldn't be able to tolerate the higher protein levels. Just wouldn't be able to process that amount, ya know? I know with normal rats, adult males do well on a 12-14% protein but can take as high as 16% without developing skin issues. Females can do fine up to about 18-20% but only when pregnant/lactating. Otherwise they have skin issues.

I would not use the cat food(too much protein can actually make them stink) and try to add in some grains/seeds/hog feed and see if that makes a difference. A tiny amount of high protein dog food(25% or so) every now and then would be okay. My mice never seemed to benefit from the dog food and it would be the last thing eaten. They really like the crispy/puffed rice, puffed wheat, cheerios.

Also, if you find hog feed(unmedicated), taste it. It's saltier than lab blocks are(yes i've tasted those too, LoL), so therefore it makes them drink more water, which makes their urine less concentrated, and therefore they smell less. Really helped with the meece. And we all know mice reek.

What kind of hog feed are you using? what brand? Do you know what the stats are on it (like I provided above?)

Oh yeah, and how much is it? what percentage of their food is the hog feed?

Mike

just called the local feed store and they carry country acres pig feed. it is 16% protein, 3% fat, and 7% fiber. Doesn't sound like that will work at all.

I just picked up 25lb bag of Mazuri 5663 from my local feed store... was the only thing they had....

Paid 20 for it...

Heres a odf for it

https://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5663.pdf

I feed only Harlan Teklad 2018 and a seed mixture of millet, oats, cracked corn, sunflowers, safflower and peanuts. I'm not losing any young and average around 15+ babies a litter.

OK, my 2 cents.... I have a big population of African soft furs. Protein is not all too great for them, it will cause them to grow large growths on their bodies, i have been breeding ASF for little or a year now and im producing 15- 20 babies each female, and the trick is i don't use any protein from bagged foods.. I use a medley of bird seeds, sunflower seeds, crushed corn, and a dry food called exotic animal chow( has no protein in it at all) also the breeding females only receive lab mouse chow it has very little protein but I only offer 4 nuggets each enclosure. I have them paired 1:3 per 10 gallon tank. so 4 nuggets really isn't much, but the trick comes with this i give them roman lettuce and carrots every other day, and veggies like mix veggies you buy frozen, also here is another trick its called cuddle bone, its a calcium chew for birds but you can buy it in bulk and i give each tank half a piece. more calcium in your rats equals more in your snakes...lol and it helps the femals produce better milk and they grow bigger and stronger... oh and the bast protein to give them is king worms or crickets, i also give them that on occasion. hope that helped

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Originally Posted by masta_ballZ

OK, my 2 cents.... I have a big population of African soft furs. Protein is not all too great for them, it will cause them to grow large growths on their bodies,

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Actually, those growths you are referring to might be spreading stomach cancer, ASF's are prone to it.

I have to update my numbers. My second generation ASF's (3 females so far) that have only been fed the harlan 2018 have just given birth to 18,18 and 17 pups. A couple more girls I'm still waiting for to pop, but I thought those were excellent numbers! I'm really liking the harlan for them.

yea those are good numbers nice my most thus far was a 26 baby litter, thats good i got in the 20 before but my god that alot of babies lol. indian girl try giving the cuddle bone, lettuce, carrots and seeds and you will see the difference..

26 babies huh? I don't believe it. got any pics?