Need to Vent

K. First this is not to get anyone upset ,mad or anything to that nature so I would like it if NOONE sends me any hate mail.(lol) I hear people alot when refuring to Ball Pythons they get all offensive when they see one in a "BIG" tank. My B.p.is just about 5 feet and the rule of thumb I have always heard and always have gone by is although they usally stayed balled up they NEED to strech out. So I make sure the tank is just about as long as their body. I DO COMPLETLY understand if u have alot of snakes using the rack system and keeping them in those small cramped tubs. However if you only have a few I don't understand why it is such a big deal. Mine is bigger than most on here and he eats just fine and is perfectly happy. He is also in good health. In fact he is soon moving into a 6' x 1 1/2' x 24" aquarium that I am SURE he will love. Ty for reading and again this is not an attack to ANYONE just me venting ty-Ray

Just curious was the question whether it would upset anyone to find out what size enclosure your keeping your BP in??

Not sure I really understand the point.

No one hates people for keeping there snakes in tanks rather than tubs, by all means if you can keep the temps right and you snake is healthy then congrats to you. It just not practical for the people who own multiple snakes to keep a bunch of tanks around and have to fuss with all the temp issuses that normally come with keeping a bp in a tank.

People don't usually get seriously upset about a "big tank" for ball pythons. More often than not, it's a new person who gets offended when it is suggested that their snake might thrive better in a smaller environment after they've come asking for help about why their snake won't eat or whatever.

A large tank can be a bit risky for baby ball pythons because they can cause certain kinds of stress related issues, such as not eating. Pointing this established fact out to someone as something they should consider when housing their baby ball python should not be offensive.

Large tanks can also be difficult to maintain proper environmental levels in. That doesn't mean it can't be done...lots of people do it successfully. But when a new person just getting started is trying to figure out the best way to house their new snake, it's reasonable to suggest that they start with a set-up that is easier to maintain.

All of the above should never be anything more than a suggestion for consideration. Different people have different situations and abilities and work ethics. If you can keep a giant tank clean and properly heated with decent levels of humidity, then I think that's awesome. If your snake seems to enjoy it and thrives in it, then that's even more awesome. More power to ya. It shouldn't be something you feel you have to be so defensive about.

(Oh...and I'll move this out of the "Intro" forum and into the BP husbandry forum for ya. ;) )

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Originally Posted by JLC

People don't usually get seriously upset about a "big tank" for ball pythons. More often than not, it's a new person who gets offended when it is suggested that their snake might thrive better in a smaller environment after they've come asking for help about why their snake won't eat or whatever.

A large tank can be a bit risky for baby ball pythons because they can cause certain kinds of stress related issues, such as not eating. Pointing this established fact out to someone as something they should consider when housing their baby ball python should not be offensive.

Large tanks can also be difficult to maintain proper environmental levels in. That doesn't mean it can't be done...lots of people do it successfully. But when a new person just getting started is trying to figure out the best way to house their new snake, it's reasonable to suggest that they start with a set-up that is easier to maintain.

All of the above should never be anything more than a suggestion for consideration. Different people have different situations and abilities and work ethics. If you can keep a giant tank clean and properly heated with decent levels of humidity, then I think that's awesome. If your snake seems to enjoy it and thrives in it, then that's even more awesome. More power to ya. It shouldn't be something you feel you have to be so defensive about.

(Oh...and I'll move this out of the "Intro" forum and into the BP husbandry forum for ya. ;) )

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I agree 100% Belive me I am NOT offended. I have been dealing with snkes for a very long time. Also have learned a good bit while on this site I love it! Just some of the things on here I am afraid that people will doubt themselves (if first timers) on why they even got a snake if in a tank. I just want them to know that it can be done in a tank and they should not get disscuraged. Maybe I worded my thoughts wrong .... sorry.

I would certainly agree with the previous posters that the "too large of an enclosure" subject ordinarily comes up when somebody just bought a baby ball python and asks why it won't eat. When told that the 55gallon tank that it is in is too large for the snake to feel secure in, the person that is asking for advice usually doesn't want to hear the answer especially if they just bought their big tank and other equipment brand new from the store that sold them the snake. The people on this site usually answer husbandry questions in a direct manner and some of them could probably do it in a kinder and gentler fashion. If your big snake is happy in a big tank I can't imagine that anyone would care one way or the other.

I feel that a small ball python most of the time does better in a small enclosure.

Your observations mirror my own when they larger. I have three ladies in three 2x3x1 RBI reptile cages and they lounge and move around and use all of the space at night. It is a joy to observe.

Sadly, my larger ball pythons in tubs do not have this opportunity (yet) and so they exhibit quite different behaviors.

In a few months, I'll have three more 2x3x1 cages for three more of my largest ball pythons. As the rest continue to grow, I will be working feverishly to transfer them to cages.

There is, however, a huge caveat to this story. Some ball pythons really do better in a very small zone. I have 2 ladies in particular who I doubt will ever live in a cage- they really thrive in a teeny space.

One size does NOT fit all ball pythons and I am really thankful that there are many options and that the members on this forum are diverse in snake keeping methodologies. This really permits a very well-rounded education! :gj:

I house both of my BP's in 40 Gal tanks - For the smaller snake I keep the tank nice and cluttered with greenery, so there isn't much open space and Im pretty confident that she feels secure. She feeds like a champ, sheds beautifully, etc :D The larger male has a tiny bit of open space, but not much. He likes knocking things over and moving the plants around.

Starmom,

What differences have you noticed in your females behavior in cages vs. those in tubs?

Are those in cages better at being handled that those in tubs?

Just curious :)

just a side question... you say your male is 5 feet long? are you sure it is a male?

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Starmom,

What differences have you noticed in your females behavior in cages vs. those in tubs?

Are those in cages better at being handled that those in tubs?

Just curious :)

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I can tell you in my case that the snakes that I keep in a rack always seem startled to be intruded upon and ball up and the snakes that I keep in cages (not tanks) look at me often and seem to wonder if I am bring food and never ball up when touched.

im a noob when it comes to taking care of my own snakes (have been with them since i was born) and i keep mine in a tank, i mean, its only been 5 days since i bought him, but he is eating already.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Starmom,

What differences have you noticed in your females behavior in cages vs. those in tubs?

Are those in cages better at being handled that those in tubs?

Just curious :)

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Hey Rich~

I don't think I've noticed ease in handle-ability per se; most of the snakes are fine with being handled, but.....

What I have observed:
-Snakes in RBI Cages (not talking tanks here) never lay in their own pee and, in fact, will go to the opposite end of the cage!
-Use all of the space in the night time to explore, slither around, lounge and stretch out to their full body length and just sort of hang
-Seem...less...I don't know...defensive about their space?? The vibe is different. They seem comfortable. Does this make sense?
-Boy do they coil and attack their prey with gusto!!! Totally snake-like and totally as I would suspect their instincts would dictate them to do. They have ample space to raise their head and 'neck' upwards to aid in the swallowing process.

Snakes in 32qt tubs:
-Have nowhere to go to get out of their own pee and so just lay in it (I do have hides in all my tubs, but they don't even get on top of the tubs like Derek's snakes do). I do not beleive this to be instinctual behavior but rather inflicted upon them because I have them in tubs.
-Try to cruise at night but there is just no space and so they lay there and periscope to the best of their environmental constraints but never get the exercise that their caged roommates get.
-Have a little less muscle mass (it seems) than their caged counterparts.
-Seem to give a bit more of a defensive vibe when I open the tub. I think this might be because it must be this huge gigantic interruption and fast and total exposure for them.
-When fed, they have very little room to coil their prey and not a lot of room to really raise up and aid their swallowing- though they do attempt but are restricted by the environmental constrictions.

Having had very little sleep last night, I am so hoping that this makes some sense to you ;) I am really thinking that the tub thing is, for the most part but also taking care to not over-generalize, a convenience for the keeper and may or may not be what is best for an individual snake.

Having stated the above, I am now ducking under my desk!!!!! :8:

Take care.

Thanks McKinsey & Dale :)

Great info, Starmom. :) I have noticed very similar things with my own snakes.

Out of necessity through a lack of room (small apartment and annoyed BF), I had to cut down on use of tanks, which I prefer, and put my three largest BPs in a rack. HOWEVER I built it myself and used 90qt tubs which are @34"x15"x12". Of course, I would love to be able to keep them in the same RBI cages McKinsey uses, but those are way too expensive.
Before the rack was built, those three adult BPs (two females and a male) were being kept in much smaller QT tubs. The biggest girl, in her 41qt tub (only 6" tall) was miserable. She hardly moved around, and when she did it was to press against every spot on the lid. When I took her out she was always overjoyed.
The other two were in 26"x12"x10" tubs and were really cramped.

Once these three moved into the rack, the changes were quite noticeable. The girls relaxed and went back to normal BP behavior (hiding in the day and cruising at night) and started attacking their weekly rat with gusto! The male, who had a major attitude and hissed when anything came near him, is settling down and even showing himself more at night (before he hid all the time).

Any snakes in tubs in this house live in large, tall tubs. :) Plenty of cruising room.

Well, if the animal's heat/cool gradient is being met, and it has appropriate protection from temperature changes and drafts, then so be it IMO. I prefer racks because I am a neat freak with my snakes, and I like the ease of removing the lightweight tubs and hosing them out in my utility sink. Tanks and me just don't get along.. I hate lifting them and I tend to break them :) I also had truobles with drafts being able to get into their screen lids in the past. Tubs offer a nice, rounded-sided cozy nook for a snake to call its own, IMO. People keep their BPs in tanks every day around the world with fine results, so I would never say that a certain method of keeping is wrong in this case.. just whatever works for you.

I think people do sometimes get on the defense, simply because many of us have been online for a long time answering...

"Why won't my snake eat?!"

"Help, having humidity trouble"

"Help, forgot to close the lid and my snake(s) escaped!"

Little stuff like that... if you have a viv and it works for you. You can keep the snake in it, can maintain proper temps and humidity, and you have an animal that is feeding with consistency then it is all good.

Why a poll though?

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Originally Posted by mcavana

just a side question... you say your male is 5 feet long? are you sure it is a male?

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I'm sorry I did say "he" and did not mean to. No not sure if a fem. or a male. I should have payed more attintion to my typing.lol Ty tho. I do have an appontment set for the vet and plan on detting "it" sexed when Scales and I go! Ty for all your responses. -Ray

It would seem to me, IMHO, that whether it be a tub, cage or tank, that the bp should have enough room to exercise (stretch out completely and roam around) without having an excessively large enclosure which may cause stress to the bp.

A-Men to that. :D That's the rule I try to go by with every animal I have... be they pet or food breeder, reptile or mammal. A balance should be found between enough room to move well and so much room they get freaked out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

just a side question... you say your male is 5 feet long? are you sure it is a male?

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Continuing with this line of questioning. Are you sure it's really 5 feet long?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starmom

Hey Rich~

I don't think I've noticed ease in handle-ability per se; most of the snakes are fine with being handled, but.....

What I have observed:
-Snakes in RBI Cages (not talking tanks here) never lay in their own pee and, in fact, will go to the opposite end of the cage!
-Use all of the space in the night time to explore, slither around, lounge and stretch out to their full body length and just sort of hang
-Seem...less...I don't know...defensive about their space?? The vibe is different. They seem comfortable. Does this make sense?
-Boy do they coil and attack their prey with gusto!!! Totally snake-like and totally as I would suspect their instincts would dictate them to do. They have ample space to raise their head and 'neck' upwards to aid in the swallowing process.

Snakes in 32qt tubs:
-Have nowhere to go to get out of their own pee and so just lay in it (I do have hides in all my tubs, but they don't even get on top of the tubs like Derek's snakes do). I do not beleive this to be instinctual behavior but rather inflicted upon them because I have them in tubs.
-Try to cruise at night but there is just no space and so they lay there and periscope to the best of their environmental constraints but never get the exercise that their caged roommates get.
-Have a little less muscle mass (it seems) than their caged counterparts.
-Seem to give a bit more of a defensive vibe when I open the tub. I think this might be because it must be this huge gigantic interruption and fast and total exposure for them.
-When fed, they have very little room to coil their prey and not a lot of room to really raise up and aid their swallowing- though they do attempt but are restricted by the environmental constrictions.

Having had very little sleep last night, I am so hoping that this makes some sense to you ;) I am really thinking that the tub thing is, for the most part but also taking care to not over-generalize, a convenience for the keeper and may or may not be what is best for an individual snake.

Having stated the above, I am now ducking under my desk!!!!! :8:

Take care.

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That's so strange, my snake is almost the exact opposite. I kept her in a 10gal aquarium when I got her, then moved her up to some big ExoTerra thing that seemed like it was too big (constantly trying to escape, etc.). After that I moved her to a tub and she's changed considerably. She no longer tries frantically to escape when I handle her, just flicks her tongue around and kind of explores from my hand, and her feeding response has improved drastically (although I leave the top off to give her ample room to move around when she strikes and strangles).

I find it odd that it'd make that much of a difference - the temp is the same, and the humidity actually goes up a lot at night instead of staying at 55-60% 24/7 like it did in the tub. Maybe it's because the sides of the other tank were exposed or the ceiling was too high or something. She did great in the 10 gallon, then got a little bit too big.

Maybe the difference is between a tank and a reptile cage? I have reptile cages that open in the front and are black sided on all the other sides and the top; made by Reptile Basics ;)

That's what I was thinking.

The 10 gallon aquarium had black craft-board taped to three sides and aluminum foil on top to keep the humidity in.

The Exo-Terra had nothing on two sides and held humidity with an open top. Although a lot of fake foliage made a huge difference between that and an empty tank, it didn't completely make her feel secure I think.

She doesn't however explore at night at all anymore really. Pokes her head about but not that much. Kinda bummed about that!

From what you're saying, I believe it was two main things: the lack of cover on the sides, and too much height from the ExoTerra. You might try a 20 long and see how she reacts to that.

In my experience thus far, BPs hate ExoTerra tanks regardless of the size of the tank, probably because most of them are over 12" tall. Too much height may make them feel like they're out in the 'open' and not in a nice burrow. Just a guess.

I have found, tho, that leaving the sides of any tank uncovered results in stressed behaviors. Display cages are solid material anyway, and so the snake can feel secure in them right off.

Sorry for the rambling... it's late, and I'm on a school sleep schedule again. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I think people do sometimes get on the defense, simply because many of us have been online for a long time answering...

"Why won't my snake eat?!"

"Help, having humidity trouble"

"Help, forgot to close the lid and my snake(s) escaped!"

Little stuff like that... if you have a viv and it works for you. You can keep the snake in it, can maintain proper temps and humidity, and you have an animal that is feeding with consistency then it is all good.

Why a poll though?

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I completely agree with this.

I do know that I tend to get defensive about the caging issue, but it's definitely something that I want to pass on. It was my main fault and my main issue when I got my ball python, and I want to try to help and prevent that from happening to any new ball python owner like it happened to me. :] I don't mean to offend anyone by my straightforwardness but I tend to be very direct when I get my point across. :oops:

The poll is odd.

You still haven't answered the 'are you sure it's male?' question. I haven't heard of males getting that big either.
How did you go about measuring it?

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

You still haven't answered the 'are you sure it's male?' question. I haven't heard of males getting that big either.
How did you go about measuring it?

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Actually, he did answer it and said he doesn't know the sex of the snake, just used a generic "he" when referring to it.

Why is everyone so concerned that he offer up a precise length? Yeah, 5' is kind of long for a BP, but certainly not unheard of...and what difference does it make to any of us if he overestimated or underestimated a bit? :confuzd:

Heat tape or flex watt, Back heat or belly heat, aquarium, plastic tub, plastic display case, or other...

Many arguments, all outcomes are the same with no winner. Breeders and hobbyists have all been finding their own ways for a long time. It seems once people figure out what works for them they stick with it to be safe.

To each their own. For us the plastic tubs and belly heat are what seems to work. Also when one of our girls or guys start to skip every other meal or such we have found moving them down in tub size for a while gets them eating regularly again.

I was just talking about this in another thread. I'm no "expert" but I fully believe that you can make ANY size tank an appropriate home for a BP, though a larger tank may require a bit more attention (temps, humidity)
I dont think a BP would really know the difference between a 30 gallon tank or a 55 gallon tank as long as they're both equally "cluttered"

Maybe, but take care to not overly generalize.

For instance (and as already mentioned) I have two girls who would WITHOUT DOUBT know if they were in anything that was big. They are very... I don't know... but if they are not in a tiny little space they go off feed to the detriment of their health.

It seems to me that these snakes have individual differences that would prove and disprove your statement. It is important to be able to read your snakes and give them what they need to thrive. :)