Has anyone ever been caught....

lying about Hets?

I always wondered if there are some people on KS that say they are selling Hets but are really just selling Normal x Normals.

I know there are birth records and such but you can make them up as well. Correct?

Chris Johnson, Top Shelf Exotics.:disbelief

Technically, he has yet to be caught...

But he will be.

I promise that.

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Originally Posted by N4S

lying about Hets?

I know there are birth records and such but you can make them up as well. Correct?

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Of course, if someone wishes to set out to destroy themselves then so be it.... they will get what they deserve!

TSE are a good example....

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Originally Posted by jknudson

Chris Johnson, Top Shelf Exotics.:disbelief

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What happened?

Chris Johnson of Top Shelf Exotics came and sold more than $10,000 worth of fake hets to people within 3 years.

Then, when people started getting suspicious, he dissapeared.

He has many enemies in this hobby, and I am DEFINATELY one of them.

That would really be a disappointment to keep breeding and breeding, getting your hopes up, and then a bunch of norms.

I cant imagine this happening once but to try it a second time I would be uber pissed.

You're telling me!!!

I was one of them...

Rick Miller sold some bogus hets too. A buddy of mine bought some and I tried to prove one two years in a row(to a visual) with no luck.

TSE, Bearded Pets (and their numerous alias') Carolina Reptile Exchange, Snake Evolutions, TW International (questionable) and those were only the big names that I can think of right off the bat. :rolleyes:

Sometimes accidents happen retained sperm and the like -- sometimes it's just outright deceit. Some were good names gone bad some were just scamming from the start.

If you are going to go with hets -- be sure you know who you are dealing with.

Good luck.

My first het purchase I got ripped off by a guy named Chris Guida for over $2500. Definately fake hets.

There are a lot of honest people out there, mixed with a few scumbags who make it difficult to trust anyone.

Justin

Justin

As Tosha pointed out, sometimes things happen like with retained sperm.

However, a good breeder will stand behind what they sell and if one of their supposed 100% hets doesn't prove out, they'll do something to make it up to you. They probably won't have extra adults lying around, so the best they may be able to do is replace it with a new hatchling, but they'll at least do something so you aren't left with nothing.

To get back to the OPs questions, the question about getting caught has already been answered by people who know more than me.

But yes, it is very easy to manufacture breeding records. From what I understand (I don't have personal experience), when you buy a guaranteed het from one of the more reputable breeders, at least some of them include some sort of certificate that says what the genetics are as well as having a photo of the snake, since they can be identified by their patterns. But if someone wanted to lie, they could take a photo of something they know is a normal, and simply write het whatever on it.

Only buy from people you trust. Only buy non-visible hets from people you REALLY trust.

I cannot imagine someone making up that a normal is a het... you are going to get caught in time.

But this is why I do not buy possible hets, regardless of the percentage. I sold a possible het this year, but for the price of a normal.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I cannot imagine someone making up that a normal is a het... you are going to get caught in time.

But this is why I do not buy possible hets, regardless of the percentage. I sold a possible het this year, but for the price of a normal.

Bruce

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Smart choices!
When I bought my het I wasn't looking to breed.. I bought him cause I liked him and he was hardly more expensive than a normal. :]

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Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I cannot imagine someone making up that a normal is a het... you are going to get caught in time.


Bruce

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By the time most people raise up the hets, the scammer selling them is long gone or under a new name.

ok after reading this how would you get record proof?? do you get it from the vet or what??

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Originally Posted by spaztheweird1

ok after reading this how would you get record proof?? do you get it from the vet or what??

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The breeder makes them, so its still only as good as his or hers word.

these scammers may not get "caught" right away or under the circumstances that we would like for them to get caught, but LIFE is funny like that............ there's something called karma (no, not ralphs blue eyed lucy), and eventually life will catch up with them........... and in some way,shape,or form they'll get whats coming to them.

At least we live in todays world where word travels at the speed of light. Imagine doing all of this in the 80's?? I can assure you, a lot more people would be getting scammed with Hets!

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Originally Posted by jonf

At least we live in todays world where word travels at the speed of light. Imagine doing all of this in the 80's?? I can assure you, a lot more people would be getting scammed with Hets!

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That is what is so great about having virtual communities... lots of people with looooooooooooooooooong memories. :)

the scamming doesn't stop at hets either. I was sold a girl that was suppose to be 'captive bred' gravid. Later, after dealing with ticks, and mites and all kinds of other problems, found out she was wild caught.

My friend sold me a snake with a group, she bought it as a 'scratch off' ball python.. he has white marks on his side, the guy told her it was possibly genetic. We are waiting to see if that one proves out.

I bought a het axanthic from Ralph Davis, Wild patterened little guy. On the back of his chart that Ralph sent me was a drawing of his head and neck pattern to prove this snake was the one he had marked the day it hatched (or close to the day). Also was a list of what clutch it was from, what year, and since all his records were online, I actually used that to show my friends what he was genetic for and proof because some of his clutchmates were visibles. On something like a recessive het, I won't go with less than a big big dealer, Not lots of snake dealer, but one whose got YEARS of experience, a reputation on the line, and willing to stand behind his snakes no matter what. If in a year I breed him to a het axanthic girl, and nothing is produced, than the next year to a diffrent het axanthic and nothing, I know Ralph is going to stand behind his guarentee. I won't have the worry that i've wasted two years raising up a norm to get nothing. (well, his pattern is the kewlest i've seen, so if he just passes that on it would be worth it. Ralph picked a great one! )

If you are going to buy hets (non-visible) then you are buying more than a snake and it's genetics. You're basically purchasing the seller's reputation so be very, very careful. Don't just depend on one source (like Kingsnake or even the BOI). Don't rush the purchase. Take your time to learn about the genetics involved, ask about the breeder from various sources, do some Google searches, check out their membership/posts in online forums, etc. That sort of pre-purchase work won't guarantee you'll never get ripped off but it does help somewhat.

As far as hets from reputable breeders, I'll use ours as a good example. They are from Adam Wysocki of 8BallPythons. We bought with confidence because we knew Adam from here. We still did our research though, spoke to people, googled and so forth. When our hets have arrived they both have come with perfect paperwork picturing the snake, listing both it's "parents" by ID#, it's exact genetics, hatchdate, etc. This is the sort of thing you should expect from the breeder so you have some proof that the snake you purchased was claimed to be a 100% het for X.

A smart, informed purchaser who takes their time picking a breeder makes the odds of not getting ripped off tilt in their favor. Nothings ever for sure, but the better informed you are, the better the odds it will go right for you. :)

You also have to remember that if you breed het to het that there is a 75% chance per egg that it will NOT be a visible morph and 25% chance you will see a visible. So just because you dont see one doesnt mean they arent hets. Odds are you wont.

Ralph is great to deal with.
Carolina reptile exchange sold me fake hets as well. Het Pieds back in 03-04. It would be great to kick him in the nutz so hard that his great grandkids feel it.
I feel for anyone who got screwed on hets. Specailly Lady ohh never met or spoke to her but what I hear from others about how great she is. You get the feeling she is a heck of a gal and a top nothchg woman. Karma will bite those bad guys in the butt.

When I started out I tried to be a cheapo and got burned by TSE, I learned my lesson cheaper isn't better most of the time. Be careful I'm happy I never received anything cause it would have hurt worse if I raised them and got nothing. In spanish we have a saying( Lo barrato sale caro) this means cheaps things sometimes become expensive.

There is a breeder local to me who spent a lot of money on female het pieds from Dead Harry Eisenmann (Bruce Eisenmann of Carolina Reptile Exchange was selling snakes for a while as his dead father) These snakes came from what at the time seemed like a reputable company, the snakes were even microchipped. He bought a male pied to breed to his female hets and after many many years and many many clutches, he has never produced a pied from any of those females. The problem is that it takes years to find out if you've been ripped off and It's difficult to charge someone for a crime that was committed years ago.

As a novice back in 2002 I bought a couple "female Het Albinos", and the one I have left has bred to my Albino male last year, 4 eggs only hets produced, and this year 3 eggs... and I'm guessing only hets will be produced again.

You do learn a lot after being scammed, but unfortunately you go through being scammed before learning your lesson. When you buy hets, you ask to see pics of the sire, you ask for referals from other people they've sold to or have bought from and then you follow up with those people, you ask for signed paperwork (for fraud purposes)... basically you'll be able to tell what's real when people are upfront with all their info, especially from small timers.

It got me to really make sure everyone knows what I have and who I got them from, just so they can do the checking for themselves and know that going with a small timer like myself they can still have that sense of security as going with a well known breeder.