ok Question BEL's from a normal?

Hi,

This has been bugging me for a couple of days.

I read on another forum about a BEL from lesser x mojave being able to produce BEL's from a pairing with a normal wild type.

Now I thought that was impossible because only one copy of the gene came from each parent so you could get either a lesser or a mojave from the pairing but not both a lesser and mojave in the same animal.

Anyone wanna edumacate me on this one? :confused:


dr del

Maybe the normal had the gene and they didn't realize it?

Or... wild speculation-- maybe the gene occupies more than one slot on the chromosome. Maybe it is not a simple two gene expression, so the lesser/ mojave parent could add more than just ONE gene?

I hope someone who knows more speaks up...

Good question, cant wait for a response but i was under the impression the genes were on the same loci and couldnt both be passed.

Not sure if it is possible, but in a way it makes some sense. You breed a bumblebee with a normal and you have a chance at getting a bumblebee out. Is the Lesser and the Mojave two separate Co-dom lines like a pastel and Cinny? Cinny bred to pastel makes Pewter and technically if you breed a pewter to a normal you have odds at Normal, Pastel, Cinny, or Pewter. Or are they the same line more along the Lemon Pastel and blond Pastel idea? You breed both pastels together you get a super, but if you breed the super to a normal you get all pastels out with no supers.

Could it have been a het. Russo? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that it was compatible with the the lesser/mojave/butters.

Yup,

That's the question all right. :weirdface

I had always assume it was along the lines of the pastel model or cinny/ black pastel rather than the bumblebee.

Wouldn't someone have made a bigger point of distinguishing between a butter x butter or lesser x lesser BEL and a lesser/ butter x mojave BEL if it worked like that?

Basically I'm just confused because I know the guy has worked with ball pythons for years and produces a lot of them but then again I have never heard anyone say they got a BEL in the first generation from a BEL x normal and I would have thought someone would have noticed if it was true. :confused:


dr del

If I had made a BEL the last thing most people would think to breed it with would be a normal. Most would probably breed it back to one of its parents in which case it would not be noticed until someone decided they wanted to take a step back and breed for mojaves and lessers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

If I had made a BEL the last thing most people would think to breed it with would be a normal. Most would probably breed it back to one of its parents in which case it would not be noticed until someone decided they wanted to take a step back and breed for mojaves and lessers.

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Actually, it would be no more the last thing people would think of than breeding a super pastel to a normal. I had always gotten the impression that the reason breeders wanted the crossed BEL's was because when bred to a normal, you can get both mojaves and lessers from one clutch.

I don't believe that this is possible. This man in London is likely from a long line of horse traders and tinkers.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

I don't believe that this is possible. This man in London is likely from a long line of horse traders and tinkers.

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Hey now, not all Tinkers are traders you want to avoid........

You can't get a super form of a co dom morph from breeding the super form to a normal.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Hey now, not all Tinkers are traders you want to avoid........

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I guess that I Cant disagree with that statement.

Alleles are not well understood among ball python breeders yet. If a cross line leucistic bred to a normal ever did produce a leucistic we would need a new theory. But I don't expect that to happen. The theory that fits all the breedings I've heard about so far is that lesser and Mojave are two different versions of the same gene (alleles) so each baby would only get one or the other version from the leucistic parent. When Morph King bred them to lots of normals I heard they only got the two grandparent types and no leucistics and no normals which is consistent with the allele theory.

However, there is currently on kingsnake a paradox ivory that shouldn't be. It's from ivory X normal. One theory on paradox is that it's two siblings that merge into one (a chimera). Under that theory the paradox shouldn't show a type that couldn't be in the clutch. An ivory X normal should not be able to produce an ivory. So something gives. My bet is it has something to do with the paradox. Someone (maybe here) pointed out some different types of chimeras and some might include two sperm. Maybe some how two yellow belly sperm fertilized the same egg and somehow made some parts that are ivory like. Or maybe ivorys can be made by combos of different related genes and not just alleles of a single yellow belly gene.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

However, there is currently on kingsnake a paradox ivory that shouldn't be. It's from ivory X normal.

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Wow! It is a cute little thing however it happened. Here is a link for anyone else that wants to see.
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1572302,1572302

Wes formerly of MKR bred his LesserXMojave BEL to 15 normals and got nothing but Lessers and Mojaves.

If that's any clue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Alleles are not well understood among ball python breeders yet. If a cross line leucistic bred to a normal ever did produce a leucistic we would need a new theory. But I don't expect that to happen. The theory that fits all the breedings I've heard about so far is that lesser and Mojave are two different versions of the same gene (alleles) so each baby would only get one or the other version from the leucistic parent. When Morph King bred them to lots of normals I heard they only got the two grandparent types and no leucistics and no normals which is consistent with the allele theory.

However, there is currently on kingsnake a paradox ivory that shouldn't be. It's from ivory X normal. One theory on paradox is that it's two siblings that merge into one (a chimera). Under that theory the paradox shouldn't show a type that couldn't be in the clutch. An ivory X normal should not be able to produce an ivory. So something gives. My bet is it has something to do with the paradox. Someone (maybe here) pointed out some different types of chimeras and some might include two sperm. Maybe some how two yellow belly sperm fertilized the same egg and somehow made some parts that are ivory like. Or maybe ivorys can be made by combos of different related genes and not just alleles of a single yellow belly gene.

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I don't understand your meaning of the word 'chimera'. I've always known a chimera to be a mixture of 2 or more species of different animals.

Interesting. I guess there are things about genetics that we don't know yet though. :]

I found the following on chimeras:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

Apparently there are a lot of different type. Mixed species might be the original mythological kind but what might be happening in ball pythons would be more like reverse twinning. Instead of one fertilized egg splitting into two genetically identical twins, two fertilized eggs merge into one baby. But this paradox ivory may be one of the other scenarios mentioned where two sperm fertilize one egg but interesting that the male's genetic material could overlap to create ivory if that is the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I found the following on chimeras:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

Apparently there are a lot of different type. Mixed species might be the original mythological kind but what might be happening in ball pythons would be more like reverse twinning. Instead of one fertilized egg splitting into two genetically identical twins, two fertilized eggs merge into one baby. But this paradox ivory may be one of the other scenarios mentioned where two sperm fertilize one egg but interesting that the male's genetic material could overlap to create ivory if that is the case.

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Ahh Its crazy stuff!
I don't think species are meant to be mixed like that poor goat-sheep.. especially if it's painful for them to even be born. :[

Interesting though.