Butter Het Cajun -- at 4 months

This pair gets better with every shed.:D Thanks for looking.:gj:https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0710_thumb.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0717_thumb.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0707_thumb.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0716_thumb.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0724_thumb.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0719_thumb.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8458_thumb.jpg

when did you say you were shipping those to me again??

great looking pair there

Nice looking snakes... Excuse me for being behind but what exactly is a cajun and do you have any pics of one?

I love it when they raise up to get a better look around.

Gorgeous, and I'll second the "What's a cajun?"

"Cajun Mommy" on eggs. She is captive hatched and laid 8 eggs that hatched on 4-5-08 -- 2.3 Butter Hets and 1.2 Hets. The entire clutch weighs between 350 -500 grams. You won't be seeing these in the classifieds anytime soon.

Like any of the snakes I have proven, I plan on working with them to find out what they do in combos and whether there is a Super -- if the project is codom. If the project is worthwhile, I believe that any time and energy spent on that project works out well in the long run.

The plan with these is breed the boys back to mom next season as well as a Pastel, a Het Ivory, maybe a Mojave. :) You never REALLY know until you breed them --sometimes more than once -- over 2-3 years -- that is the fun part I think.;)

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0097_thumb.jpg

Momma is certainly a beauty, but what exactly defines a "cajun"?:confused:

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Originally Posted by SnakieMom

Momma is certainly a beauty, but what exactly defines a "cajun"?:confused:

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Every base morph -- Pastels, Lessers, Albino's, Caramels, Ghosts, etc. originally came from either a wild caught import or a captive hatched animal(born in captivity from an imported/wild animal) that proved genetic(reproduces themseves). These animals need to be named to differentiate them from other snakes. Ball pythons have around 75 proven base morphs(don't hold me to that number:confused:). This number grows every year as new morphs are proven. Hope this helps explain the "name game".:)

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Every base morph -- Pastels, Lessers, Albino's, Caramels, Ghosts, etc. originally came from either a wild caught import or a captive hatched animal(born in captivity from an imported/wild animal) that proved genetic(reproduces themseves). These animals need to be named to differentiate them from other snakes. Ball pythons have around 75 proven base morphs(don't hold me to that number:confused:). This number grows every year as new morphs are proven. Hope this helps explain the "name game".:)

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Have you proven this "cajun" to be a genetically inheritable trait? I don't think people name a line until they have proven it genetically reproducible. Looks like a nice normal though!

After going back and reading your post about the mother, I am completely confused. If you believe it is a recessive trait which you seem to indicate by calling all the babies "het cajun" than why would you refer to it as possibly codominant? Do any of the babies in the clutch look like the mother?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

After going back and reading your post about the mother, I am completely confused. If you believe it is a recessive trait which you seem to indicate by calling all the babies "het cajun" than why would you refer to it as possibly codominant? Do any of the babies in the clutch look like the mother?

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That's what I was wondering.

...dont know...but I think you may be jumping the gun on this one by calling them hets...breed a male back to mommy, or two of the kiddos back with eachother...if you get more cajuns....then yes those were hets! :gj::salute:

Not to answer anything for Bill, but we sold him that female from Ian G's private collection that we had bought a large # of animals from. We bought her from Ian and as, and sold her to Bill as a c.h het red. By proving her out.... getting babies that look like the mother on their own and with the butter combo he proved her to be a het red type animal. Since she is not from Woods line... het red.... Mike Cole's line... lace black back, etc he named her a descriptive name (Cajun) as she does have a deep reddish burgundy color to her, and called the babies what they were, which I believe in respect to Cory/Snake keeper, he called "hets" to show similarity to the het red line but also show a difference in the lines.

Not speaking for Bill, but it seems to be what is the case in this situation, in my opinion it was the right decision, relate it to the closest known morph, but also make it known as a seperate line... kind of like butter and lesser.

That said, Bill I will be expectiong one of those bad buys in the next group ..... :)

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

That said, Bill I will be expectiong one of those bad buys in the next group ..... :)

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Should read bad boys, not bad buys.

If these are het. cajun......has a cajun been produced yet?

they are friggin sweet

Wow!! What a beautiful pair!! Your lucky :)

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

Not to answer anything for Bill, but we sold him that female from Ian G's private collection that we had bought a large # of animals from. We bought her from Ian and as, and sold her to Bill as a c.h het red. By proving her out.... getting babies that look like the mother on their own and with the butter combo he proved her to be a het red type animal. Since she is not from Woods line... het red.... Mike Cole's line... lace black back, etc he named her a descriptive name (Cajun) as she does have a deep reddish burgundy color to her, and called the babies what they were, which I believe in respect to Cory/Snake keeper, he called "hets" to show similarity to the het red line but also show a difference in the lines.

Not speaking for Bill, but it seems to be what is the case in this situation, in my opinion it was the right decision, relate it to the closest known morph, but also make it known as a seperate line... kind of like butter and lesser.

That said, Bill I will be expecting one of those bad boys in the next group ..... :)

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Could not have put it any better. Thanks Josh.:) I would add that it is my understanding that all morphs that have Supers are "visual hets". But, unlike simple recessive animals, co dominant animals don't require the gene to be present in both animals being bred to produce a visual morph.

I guess my thinking/naming could be wrong if the gene in question turns out to be "only" dominant -- thereby not producing a Super. That is possible, but highly unlikely. After all, how many dominant morphs are there???? Spider, Pinstripe, and ???? -- even Granites are proving to be codom and a few have some pretty sweet super forms IMHO.

I feel as though I need to defend my position -- that's cool... I am very conservative about naming a morph. Over a quarter of my collection is captive hatched and I have proven 3 (each of the 3 has had multiple clutches to rule out any question for me at least) other animals -- the first almost a year ago -- that I am keeping under wraps at this point because I believe that one should have "some" idea what they are working with--what it "does" -- Super? Combo with other morphs? etc..

I posted these snakes because they were combined with an established morph(Butter). My other proven snakes have only been bred to normals -- they are all males.

If you knew me, you would know I have 2 BIG pet peeves in the hobby/business of reptiles -- breeders who don't update their website more than TWICE A YEAR!!!!! -- and snakes that have PUBLICLY accepted names before they are PROVEN GENETIC!!!! Example???? I will not utter even a name because that would be rude, and I WOULD BE AS SHOCKED AS THE BREEDERS WHO OWN THEM IF THESE ANIMALS DO NOT PROVE GENETIC -- but that is not the point.

Let's play the "Which 2 POSSIBLE morphs game"!!
How many clues before you guess correctly -- be honest.:colbert:

The 2 animals I am thinking of have received A LOT of attention over the last couple years. They deserve every bit of it because they are SWEET!!! They are VERY similar in appearance but have different names. Anybody???

Both the animals have, in my opinion, produced "visual hets" -- although many people would consider them "normal looking". Both animals wild-caught imports owned by WELL KNOWN and respected breeders -- one of them does NOT reside in the U.S.A.. More clues??? O.K. One of the animals is a female and the other a male -- the same could be said of the breeders!:D

One of the breeders is sure enough that their animal will prove that they have released some of the offspring with a written guarantee for a full refund should they not prove. I think that rocks!!! -- stand behind your animals. Anyone who hasn't come upon the animals names by now can find out with a little research I am sure.

These 2 animals are important because they illustrate what I feel is a double standard when discussing/evaluating larger breeders and smaller ones. As a beginning/smaller/unknown breeder I have animals on the ground and not a few people I bet are/will be suspect about the genetics of my animals. It is not really about the humans who put the animals togehter, but rather the ANIMALS.

As for the genetic "scaleprint" of the Cajun I would ask one ? of the doubters. Find a "plain old Butter" that looks like the animals in my post.;)

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Could not have put it any better. Thanks Josh.:) I would add that it is my understanding that all morphs that have Supers are "visual hets". But, unlike simple recessive animals, co dominant animals don't require the gene to be present in both animals being bred to produce a visual morph.

I guess my thinking/naming could be wrong if the gene in question turns out to be "only" dominant -- thereby not producing a Super. That is possible, but highly unlikely. After all, how many dominant morphs are there???? Spider, Pinstripe, and ???? -- even Granites are proving to be codom and a few have some pretty sweet super forms IMHO.

I feel as though I need to defend my position -- that's cool... I am very conservative about naming a morph. Over a quarter of my collection is captive hatched and I have proven 3 (each of the 3 has had multiple clutches to rule out any question for me at least) other animals -- the first almost a year ago -- that I am keeping under wraps at this point because I believe that one should have "some" idea what they are working with--what it "does" -- Super? Combo with other morphs? etc..

I posted these snakes because they were combined with an established morph(Butter). My other proven snakes have only been bred to normals -- they are all males.

If you knew me, you would know I have 2 BIG pet peeves in the hobby/business of reptiles -- breeders who don't update their website more than TWICE A YEAR!!!!! -- and snakes that have PUBLICLY accepted names before they are PROVEN GENETIC!!!! Example???? I will not utter even a name because that would be rude, and I WOULD BE AS SHOCKED AS THE BREEDERS WHO OWN THEM IF THESE ANIMALS DO NOT PROVE GENETIC -- but that is not the point.

Let's play the "Which 2 POSSIBLE morphs game"!!
How many clues before you guess correctly -- be honest.:colbert:

The 2 animals I am thinking of have received A LOT of attention over the last couple years. They deserve every bit of it because they are SWEET!!! They are VERY similar in appearance but have different names. Anybody???

Both the animals have, in my opinion, produced "visual hets" -- although many people would consider them "normal looking". Both animals wild-caught imports owned by WELL KNOWN and respected breeders -- one of them does NOT reside in the U.S.A.. More clues??? O.K. One of the animals is a female and the other a male -- the same could be said of the breeders!:D

One of the breeders is sure enough that their animal will prove that they have released some of the offspring with a written guarantee for a full refund should they not prove. I think that rocks!!! -- stand behind your animals. Anyone who hasn't come upon the animals names by now can find out with a little research I am sure.

These 2 animals are important because they illustrate what I feel is a double standard when discussing/evaluating larger breeders and smaller ones. As a beginning/smaller/unknown breeder I have animals on the ground and not a few people I bet are/will be suspect about the genetics of my animals. It is not really about the humans who put the animals togehter, but rather the ANIMALS.

As for the genetic "scaleprint" of the Cajun I would ask one ? of the doubters. Find a "plain old Butter" that looks like the animals in my post.;)

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...you can't blaim the 'doubters' here when you dont clairfy all of this in your FIRST post...;)

...when you post an animal and label it 'het for cajun' ...those (including myself) whom arent familiar with this trait will search for it, and when we dont find any visuals of 2nd generation or later cajuns...things start to smell fishy....

...so with an animal and clutch like this, I would better explain the history of the animals as Josh (jnj) did for ya...or else you will get us 'doubters' ;):gj:

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

...you can't blaim the 'doubters' here when you dont clairfy all of this in your FIRST post...;)

...when you post an animal and label it 'het for cajun' ...those (including myself) whom arent familiar with this trait will search for it, and when we dont find any visuals of 2nd generation or later cajuns...things start to smell fishy....

...so with an animal and clutch like this, I would better explain the history of the animals as Josh (jnj) did for ya...or else you will get us 'doubters' ;):gj:

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...hehe I dont know why I said clutch...guess I was looking ahead! :P

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

"Cajun Mommy" on eggs. She is captive hatched and laid 8 eggs that hatched on 4-5-08 -- 2.3 Butter Hets and 1.2 Hets. The entire clutch weighs between 350 -500 grams. You won't be seeing these in the classifieds anytime soon.

Like any of the snakes I have proven, I plan on working with them to find out what they do in combos and whether there is a Super -- if the project is codom. If the project is worthwhile, I believe that any time and energy spent on that project works out well in the long run.

The plan with these is breed the boys back to mom next season as well as a Pastel, a Het Ivory, maybe a Mojave. :) You never REALLY know until you breed them --sometimes more than once -- over 2-3 years -- that is the fun part I think.;)

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0097_thumb.jpg

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Congrats!! They look great.

So I just want to clarify. Het Cajun is another form of a het Red Axanthic; therefore, a codom? But since it is captive hatched, it is not the same exact line as a het red. When you breed two together you should get a Cajun / Red Axanthic (super form)?

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

...you can't blaim the 'doubters' here when you dont clairfy all of this in your FIRST post...;)

...when you post an animal and label it 'het for cajun' ...those (including myself) whom arent familiar with this trait will search for it, and when we dont find any visuals of 2nd generation or later cajuns...things start to smell fishy....

...so with an animal and clutch like this, I would better explain the history of the animals as Josh (jnj) did for ya...or else you will get us 'doubters' ;):gj:

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Fair point Joshua.:) I did post a thread on May 22nd with info on mom and clutch. A search of Cajun and Butter brought it up. Given that this animal does not have an established history I SHOULD have given another/more complete back-story of the breeding -- my bad. Won't make that mistake again.;)

The butters are pretty, no doubt, but I'm having a hard time seeing something in them that has been passed from the mother. They just look like really hot butters... And now that the whole het red thing has been brought into it... I'm so confused.. Are these butter het reds... What are these??? I could not be more confused honestly. And with each post it seems like it gets more complicated. I don't wanna bug you but you can lay it out. Like where does the het red come into this?

Oh so now you're saying these might be a new line of het reds? Is that what it is?

if they are in the same gene as het reds i love how they make the butters have a black back and the blushing comes through!!!!!!!!!!!

congratz man and good looking combo

I've seen plain ol butters ....... and yours are not plain! Good luck with that project ......... sounds interesting and fun all in one!




:gj:

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Every base morph -- Pastels, Lessers, Albino's, Caramels, Ghosts, etc. originally came from either a wild caught import or a captive hatched animal(born in captivity from an imported/wild animal) that proved genetic(reproduces themseves). These animals need to be named to differentiate them from other snakes. Ball pythons have around 75 proven base morphs(don't hold me to that number:confused:). This number grows every year as new morphs are proven. Hope this helps explain the "name game".:)

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this did help, and it didn't. I understand how morphs came about...
what I was asking for, was a descrition on what visual traits this
particular animal had that would be considered
'Cajun'. But, i *think* some other posts have kind of
explained... like something about the het reds...
I'm still confused, but it's getting clearer. :)

Very nice snakes. I am willing to bet, you will prove out a super . But I believe your Cajuns are more like BHB's "Lori Balls" than the het reds.

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Originally Posted by Thomas Jones

Very nice snakes. I am willing to bet, you will prove out a super . But I believe your Cajuns are more like BHB's "Lori Balls" than the het reds.

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I believe the Lori ball is another form of a het red. Sort of like a butter and a lesser. From what I beleive is being stated, the het Cajun is another form of both the het red and the Lori ball. Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the case, then if he breeds two het Cajuns together he should create a Cajun (super form). Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I believe the Lori ball is another form of a het red. Sort of like a butter and a lesser. From what I beleive is being stated, the het Cajun is another form of both the het red and the Lori ball. Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the case, then if he breeds two het Cajuns together he should create a Cajun (super form). Hope this helps.

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Yes, a Super should be the possible outcome as well as a Cajan Butter. I am lucky in that I have 2 Butter Het Cajuns to breed next season. They whole clutch are FANTASTIC feeders and have great temperments(really mellow) -- as do both parents -- don't know whether that is inheritable????

I am guessing what most of you are --that the Cajun's are in the Het Red Axanthic/Lori family somewhere. I think all 3 animals will produce slightly different Super in both pattern and color. Mommy Cajun has all her weight back and then some.:D She was 1700 when she laid her clutch in April and should be over 2500 by November -- can't wait!!!

Good luck with the super Bill. I bet it's going to be smoking!!! I can't wait to see it.

Alan

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Yes, a Super should be the possible outcome as well as a Cajan Butter. I am lucky in that I have 2 Butter Het Cajuns to breed next season. They whole clutch are FANTASTIC feeders and have great temperments(really mellow) -- as do both parents -- don't know whether that is inheritable????

I am guessing what most of you are --that the Cajun's are in the Het Red Axanthic/Lori family somewhere. I think all 3 animals will produce slightly different Super in both pattern and color. Mommy Cajun has all her weight back and then some.:D She was 1700 when she laid her clutch in April and should be over 2500 by November -- can't wait!!!

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Congrats! Can't wait to see the supers. And at 2500 grams, she should give you enough eggs that you should definately produce at least a couple. Good luck.